End of QAM tuners ?

[KarylFStein]

OK, new plan. Go with Dish now with the HD dual tuner, but no HD plan. It looks like I'll save $30/mo (1st year anyway, but still $15/mo after that) and not lose any channels or tuners. My Internet bill will go up, but work pays for that anyway. I'll have to shell out for a USB-UIRT and one of those IR converters for the second tuner in the Dish box, but that will pay for itself in 4 months. Guess I'll wait until CES to make any drastic changes, although it seems like Dish is a better value--I only stuck with Comcast because it (used to) let me do everything without a STB. When funds free up, I can get a HD PVR and an HD package. Hope it goes as smooth as it sounds it should...

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by KarylFStein

Thanks for the reply. I didn't think about Sage needing to keep the "recording" channel 3 on the 1800 while needing to change the channel on the DTA. Makes sense that doesn't work.

Well, it really looks like it should work. On the tuner configuration screen the options are all there to record like this. Basically, it has a setting for the RF channel to record off of, which I assume is for a situation like this. It's just that once I tell the PVR-250 to record off of the cable instead of composite/s-video, I can't tell it to do external tuning (that option is no longer selectable).

I'm not sure where the problem is. Maybe it's a GUI bug. Maybe its a limitation in Sage. Or, maybe there's some reason it doesn't work with the PVR-250, but it works with other tuners.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by KarylFStein

I'll have to shell out for a USB-UIRT and one of those IR converters for the second tuner in the Dish box, but that will pay for itself in 4 months.

Does anyone have that working? That runs into the same problem I was talking about with the DTAs. The second output on those Dish boxes is RF only, isn't it? You'd have to tell a capture card to record on a certain channel, but do external tuning with a USB-UIRT.

[KarylFStein]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Does anyone have that working? That runs into the same problem I was talking about with the DTAs. The second output on those Dish boxes is RF only, isn't it? You'd have to tell a capture card to record on a certain channel, but do external tuning with a USB-UIRT.

It looks like it has composite, blech (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...ges/222k.shtml). Too bad no SVIDEO. Maybe I should just go with a couple 211ks and eat the $7/mo rental fee.

[Greg]

Originally Posted by reggie14

As I said, I'm not sure you can get Sage to record off the DTAs. But, maybe I was doing something wrong when I tried. You'd certainly lose quality. If I were you, and wanted to record off of STBs, I'd complain to Comcast and try to get them to send out full set top boxes instead of the DTAs, for no additional cost. Then I'd record using s-video. (I'd probably also get the HVR-2250, instead of the 1800, since it can do 2 analog captures at the same time).

You should be able to send the output of the DTA directly to an analog tuner, as this is NTSC, which is the same as an analog TV tuner. If you wanted you can also run it into a VCR and take the S-video output of the VCR to your analog tuner.

My area, suburban Chicago is supposed to cut-off the analog signal in March........channels 2 - 99! Now that sucks!

Greg

[VCRUser]

I record frequently off the DTA RF via channel 3 on my Hauppauge 1600's analog imput. The quality is typicaly adequate: I use the "DVD extra long play" setting, and it might be better if I upped the setting, but I then transcode down to "mp4 good" to save space (even 1T fills up quickly). It's still good enough for my purposes (more interested in the content than in a beautiful picture) In my area we still have all the expanded basic available in clear QAM. from Comcast. If/when that changes, I'll likely give Verizon a call to set up FIOS, since the QAM availability is about the only thing Comcast has going for it. I wasn't aware I could attach my USBUIRT directly to the back of the DTA. The DTA includes a small receiver, which you can use in addition to pointing your remote directly at the DTA's front, and that small receiver plugs into the back. I have that receiver attached to my usbuirt's front emitting area. Can that actually be used to connect the USBUIRT more directly to the DTA, and if so, how, and is it more reliable? Every now and then, I get the wrong channel.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by KarylFStein

It looks like it has composite, blech (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...ges/222k.shtml). Too bad no SVIDEO. Maybe I should just go with a couple 211ks and eat the $7/mo rental fee.

I'd recommend the 211k's as well... another option is to keep an eye on ebay for used receivers. Can usually be had relatively cheap, and it doesn't take long for the rental savings to pay for it. Just make sure you get the number of the box and verify that it's clear with dish before bidding.

[reggie14]

Well, the FCC has continued its practice of letting cable companies do whatever they want. According to this article, they granted Cablevision's request to encrypt the basic tier. That means they'll be encrypted the local broadcast networks.

Now, Cablevision's request was only for New York City. But, this almost certainly sets a precedent. This is the first time the FCC granted this request in an urban area in the US (as opposed to Puerto Rico).

This is definitely bad news for clear QAM users. This might not seem very troubling to homeowners that can always receive OTA TV, but its probably more troubling to those of us in apartments that can't easily receive OTA signals.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Well, the FCC has continued its practice of letting cable companies do whatever they want. According to this article, they granted Cablevision's request to encrypt the basic tier. That means they'll be encrypted the local broadcast networks.

Now, Cablevision's request was only for New York City. But, this almost certainly sets a precedent. This is the first time the FCC granted this request in an urban area in the US (as opposed to Puerto Rico).

This is definitely bad news for clear QAM users. This might not seem very troubling to homeowners that can always receive OTA TV, but its probably more troubling to those of us in apartments that can't easily receive OTA signals.

Basic tier is different from the locals. And the way it sounds is that there are still going to be clear QAM channels as they mention one of the requirements is providing clear QAM devices to customers. Without specifics I'm assuming that means clear QAM tuners for people that still have analog TV's.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Basic tier is different from the locals. And the way it sounds is that there are still going to be clear QAM channels as they mention one of the requirements is providing clear QAM devices to customers. Without specifics I'm assuming that means clear QAM tuners for people that still have analog TV's.

The basic tier contains local broadcast networks, and other channels that they're basically forced to carry, such as public educational and government access channels. I highly doubt Cablevision is making a fuss over the public access channels- they want to cut off the local broadcast networks.

I think you may have misinterpreted one of the conditions of the waiver. The one I think you're referring to says "Give current basic-only subs with "clear-QAM" devices up to two set-tops or CableCARDs without charge for up to 10 years." That means they have to give current subscribers that are using clear QAM tuners either two STBs or CableCards for free for 10 years.

It definitely sounds like Cablevision is moving to encrypt the locals in NYC. Otherwise I don't see why they would have asked for the waiver.

For some background, here's a post I made about this waiver request back in September.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by reggie14

The basic tier contains local broadcast networks, and other channels that they're basically forced to carry, such as public educational and government access channels. I highly doubt Cablevision is making a fuss over the public access channels- they want to cut off the local broadcast networks.

I think you may have misinterpreted one of the conditions of the waiver. The one I think you're referring to says "Give current basic-only subs with "clear-QAM" devices up to two set-tops or CableCARDs without charge for up to 10 years." That means they have to give current subscribers that are using clear QAM tuners either two STBs or CableCards for free for 10 years.

It definitely sounds like Cablevision is moving to encrypt the locals in NYC. Otherwise I don't see why they would have asked for the waiver.

For some background, here's a post I made about this waiver request back in September.

Granted, this is the FCC granting the waiver but I thought it was required by them that the local broadcast networks were to be carried in the clear? If so, this defeats the purpose of their own rules.

[Fuzzy]

well, I never really understood the 'must be clear' mandate anyways. It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint. It allows people to use cablevisions services, without paying for it (remember, a LOT of the cost of running a cable system is the installation/maintenance of the system... NOT JUST the content fees). Encryption, in the real world (not us fringe users) just means you have to have a STB, and it ensures that only paying customers can use their service. It is especially important in NYC, where there are a LOT of apartment/condo dwellers, where it is harder for them to agressivly control access in other means (such as filters).

If it is really that big of a concern (I doubt it is for most everyone.. even the story claims 99% already subscribe to digital anyways), then you could alwys work with your neighbors/landlords to install a nice high quality directional antenna on the roof, and good distribution amp.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Granted, this is the FCC granting the waiver but I thought it was required by them that the local broadcast networks were to be carried in the clear?

That's exactly why Cablevision needed to ask the FCC for a waiver. The encryption prohibition isn't/wasn't for local broadcast networks, it is/was for the basic tier.

It was the same thing with the separable security waiver that cable companies and manufacturers got to turn on privacy mode on the DTAs. The FCC had a regulation requiring separable security, so companies needed the FCC to grant a waiver to get around it.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It allows people to use cablevisions services, without paying for it (remember, a LOT of the cost of running a cable system is the installation/maintenance of the system... NOT JUST the content fees).

Well, part of me agrees with you. I'm sure it would be awfully convenient for a cable company to just leave an apartment/condo/house/etc physically connected to the cable when someone cancels. But it sucks for apartment-dwellers that have been using clear QAM. And it doesn't seem like stealing OTA and public access channels would be that much of a concern for a cable company. I wouldn't think there would be very many basic-only subscribers. Of course, maybe that's different in a place like New York where a lot of people live in apartments/condos that might not have access to OTA content.

I could try to make an argument for why clear QAM is important to the public at large, but it would be a stretch. Something along the lines of local broadcast TV still being the primary form of communication in an emergency, and trying to keep that as easily available as possible.

If it is really that big of a concern (I doubt it is for most everyone.. even the story claims 99% already subscribe to digital anyways), then you could alwys work with your neighbors/landlords to install a nice high quality directional antenna on the roof, and good distribution amp.

First of all, I subscribe to digital cable, but that doesn't reduce my desire to keep clear QAM access. Most of my recordings are from local broadcast networks. It's nice to have an HDHR for those recordings, and keep my firewire and HD-PVR tuners available for expanded basic/premium programming.

Second of all, I highly doubt apartment-dwellers will have very much luck getting a large, perhaps corporately-owned, apartment complex to install a decent antenna and amp. Even if they did, then you'd still end up having to decide between either cable TV without clear QAM, or OTA. You probably wouldn't be able to have both cable and OTA, since they'd have to disconnect the antenna from a unit to hook up that unit's cable TV.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

well, I never really understood the 'must be clear' mandate anyways. It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint. It allows people to use cablevisions services, without paying for it (remember, a LOT of the cost of running a cable system is the installation/maintenance of the system... NOT JUST the content fees).

Huh? Here the cable company disconnects users who aren't subscribed. I had "free" cable for about a week when I got possession of my house. Up until either the previous owner's sub expired or until they got someone out to disconnect my house.

[Fuzzy]

My point was that for those few who use it, it is a matter of convenience, and one that is not really within the designed intent of the service. You certainly can't convince me that CableVision (and others) should have to cater to a small <1% of their customer base that really don't want the change, especially when the service in question is the most basic, cheapest tier.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Huh? Here the cable company disconnects users who aren't subscribed. I had "free" cable for about a week when I got possession of my house. Up until either the previous owner's sub expired or until they got someone out to disconnect my house.

Cablevision is trying to get away with no longer disconnecting past customers. In their waiver request to the FCC, they basically said leaving customers physically connected would be more environmentally and customer friendly by not having to do appointments to add or terminate service. Of course, customers will still have to obtain and drop off their STBs or cable cards...

Originally Posted by FCC Public Notice

Cablevision’s request describes its plans to convert its New York City franchise areas to an all-digital system, and asserts that grant of the requested waiver “will reduce costs, improve customer service, reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions and have virtually no negative impact on customers.” Cablevision argues that its requested waiver is justified by the benefits that will result from its transition, including allowing Cablevision to offer its subscribers an easier and more efficient way to activate and terminate service without appointments, and enhance security of the cable network. Cablevision also maintains that Commission precedent supports grant of the requested waiver.

[Fuzzy]

And i agree that those are all reasonable reasons to make the switch. House calls are insanely expensive, monetarily, labor, AND environmentally. Being able to make a reasonably simple change such as this, and cut costs considerably is a very good busieness decision on their part, and i think it's reasonable for the fcc to agree to it.

[stanger89]

You won't find me saying a company should "have" to do anything they don't legally have to. That said, for decades people have been used to being able to view "basic" cable without a cable box. So there's a very valid and justified discontent when a feature of the service (viewing without a box) is taken a way.

I've seen lots of comments, from lots of people who have stayed with cable (vs going to satellite) for the simple reason that they didn't need boxes with cable.

[Fuzzy]

True, but most people who do that are using ANALOG tuners, not Clear-QAM. Analog is going away, with or without this FCC exception, and that's not what we're talking about here.