Starting Over

[fastoy]

I've been a very satisfied customer of SageTV for years. Most recently, I have been running SageTV v5 on an off-lease Dell GX270 with 1 GB of RAM. I uses a Hauppauge PVR-350 capture card. You can read all about my setup and usage here: http://www.google.com/search?q=saget...e.blogspot.com

Last night it died for the second time. I think I want to start over with a smaller, more modern footprint.

I have moved it out of the entertainment center and have been using a Hauppauge Media Extender. It works great.

I want to use something with a form factor like an Apple Mac Mini and get it back into the entertainment center for simplicity. (Not simpler function. That works fine. Just less parts.) I don't want to switch to a Mac as I use Windows everywhere else.

I want to continue recording and viewing my SD TV shows off of the SageTV box and be able to copy them across my network to my server where I can edit and burn to DVDs. For now, I can live without recording HD.

I also want to add the capability to be able to watch youtube videos and look at PC-based photos on my HD TV (http://benmoore.blogspot.com/2008/01/finally-hd.html). My thinking is to just do this with the VGA out of the PC or the S-Video out of the PVR-350 or my graphics card. I can't remember what it is (I added it to the GX270) but it does S-Video out. HDMI obviously would be nice.

Last of all, I don't want to spend a ton of money. My requirements are really very modest.

[Clift]

Do you want to move your server back to under the TV? Then what i would suggest is either a shuttle xpc box, or any number of HTPC cases. Otherwise, you can buy a mac mini and install windows on it. The steps are pretty easy to do so using boot camp or something like that.

If you're happy with the mediaMVP, then you should also look into the Sage Hd Theater (HD200). That would simplify things for you a LOT!

[fastoy]

Would the Mac Mini take my PVR-350 as a capture card? What would I do for driving the TV? Does the Mac Mini have S-Video out? Would it take my 1/2 height AGP video card?

The Sage HD Theater seems to continue the configuration of using the Media Extender and still requires a PC running SageTV. As I mentioned, I want to SIMPLIFY my configuration. How would the Sage HD Theater simplify things?

I looked at the Shuttles but there were so many configurations! Is there a reference configuration I could start with? Also, they don't seem cheap.

I was wondering about a Small Form Factor like from HP or Dell.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by fastoy

Would the Mac Mini take my PVR-350 as a capture card?

The Mac Mini wouldn't work with your PVR-350. You'd have to get one or more USB tuners. But, I wouldn't recommend the mini for a server. You'd basically have to rely on external storage, either external USB hard drives or something like a ReadyNAS.

The Sage HD Theater seems to continue the configuration of using the Media Extender and still requires a PC running SageTV. As I mentioned, I want to SIMPLIFY my configuration. How would the Sage HD Theater simplify things?

It depends on your definition of "simplify". Extenders simplify your life by not having to tweak them to get them to play back video well. My HD extender is much better at playing back HD video files without studdering than my 2.4Ghz quad core computer with a Radeon 3850. And, video quality tends to be better too. I know my MVP looked much better on my old SDTV than s-video output from a Geforce 4 card. And now, video playback from my HD200 looks nicer on my HDTV than playback via HDMI output from the Radeon 4650 card in my Sage server.

Yes, it's one more device to have, but "number of devices" is a fairly meaningless metric for the simplicity of your Sage setup.

That being said, the HD200 might not be for you. Online videos are apparently somewhat important for you. There is a way of accessing Youtube videos on the HD200, but I think it's very unpleasant to use. I switch my TV over to my server's output if I'm going to watch Youtube stuff on my TV. And, you really can't access Netflix or Hulu over the extender without doing something goofy.

I was wondering about a Small Form Factor like from HP or Dell.

If you really want to go with a single box that acts as server and client, something like a Dell Studio Desktop (not a Studio Slim) might work OK. You're sort of limited because smaller PCs almost always have half-height PCI/PCI-e slots, whereas you're going to need full-height slots to keep using your PVR-350. The cube computers often have one full height slot (usually, now it's PCI-e, but your PVR-350 is PCI). Hauppauge used to make a low-profile PVR-150 card, which might fit in something like a Dell Studio Slim desktop, but I'm not sure if you can even find those anymore.

As long as you can deal with poor Youtube support, I think you should just buy an extender. You said you have a server already anyway (the computer that has a DVD burner). Can't you just put your PVR-350 in that, install Sage, and buy an HD200 for your living room TV? Even if that server isn't a dedicated SageTV server, I'd still that that's probably a better option than getting a machine that will act as client and server. Things change if you really want online video. Then I think you have to go with some type of PC client instead of an extender.

[fastoy]

Thanks. That's just the kind of assessment I needed.

I already have a Hauppauge Media Extender. Since I can't capture HD video, I'm not sure what the HD200 buys me. Given your input, I may just leave the Hauppauge Media Extender in the picture to avoid generating the video off of the SageTV server. I still need a solution for PC output to the TV. I'll have to noodle on that a while. I guess I could put both the extender and the SageTV server in the entertainment center but that would take up 2 inputs on the TV. Hmmm. Just don't know.

I think I have a PVR-150 in my other PC. I could swap it out if I needed a 1/2 height card.

Originally Posted by reggie14

The Mac Mini wouldn't work with your PVR-350. You'd have to get one or more USB tuners. But, I wouldn't recommend the mini for a server. You'd basically have to rely on external storage, either external USB hard drives or something like a ReadyNAS.



It depends on your definition of "simplify". Extenders simplify your life by not having to tweak them to get them to play back video well. My HD extender is much better at playing back HD video files without studdering than my 2.4Ghz quad core computer with a Radeon 3850. And, video quality tends to be better too. I know my MVP looked much better on my old SDTV than s-video output from a Geforce 4 card. And now, video playback from my HD200 looks nicer on my HDTV than playback via HDMI output from the Radeon 4650 card in my Sage server.

Yes, it's one more device to have, but "number of devices" is a fairly meaningless metric for the simplicity of your Sage setup.

That being said, the HD200 might not be for you. Online videos are apparently somewhat important for you. There is a way of accessing Youtube videos on the HD200, but I think it's very unpleasant to use. I switch my TV over to my server's output if I'm going to watch Youtube stuff on my TV. And, you really can't access Netflix or Hulu over the extender without doing something goofy.



If you really want to go with a single box that acts as server and client, something like a Dell Studio Desktop (not a Studio Slim) might work OK. You're sort of limited because smaller PCs almost always have half-height PCI/PCI-e slots, whereas you're going to need full-height slots to keep using your PVR-350. The cube computers often have one full height slot (usually, now it's PCI-e, but your PVR-350 is PCI). Hauppauge used to make a low-profile PVR-150 card, which might fit in something like a Dell Studio Slim desktop, but I'm not sure if you can even find those anymore.

As long as you can deal with poor Youtube support, I think you should just buy an extender. You said you have a server already anyway (the computer that has a DVD burner). Can't you just put your PVR-350 in that, install Sage, and buy an HD200 for your living room TV? Even if that server isn't a dedicated SageTV server, I'd still that that's probably a better option than getting a machine that will act as client and server. Things change if you really want online video. Then I think you have to go with some type of PC client instead of an extender.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by fastoy

Since I can't capture HD video, I'm not sure what the HD200 buys me.

The HD200 would provide a snappier interface, better youtube support, and much better support for mpeg4/divx/xvid/h.264 videos. I think you would get better video for ripped DVDs, as you could output 480p instead of just 480i. But, if all you're doing is watching recorded SDTV, the HD200 wouldn't buy you a whole lot.

But, out of curiosity, since you already have an HDTV, aren't you interested in at least recording the local network channels in HD? Over-the-air and QAM tuners aren't very expensive these days. Of course, then you would need the HD200, which brings up the cost.

Given your input, I may just leave the Hauppauge Media Extender in the picture to avoid generating the video off of the SageTV server.

I think you should try it both ways. To your eyes the video card output off your computer might look better. I think it also matters how much you tweak your video decoders.

I still need a solution for PC output to the TV. I'll have to noodle on that a while. I guess I could put both the extender and the SageTV server in the entertainment center but that would take up 2 inputs on the TV.

If you have an HDTV, I see no reason to not use VGA, assuming your HDTV has a VGA input. Otherwise, if you're still getting a new computer, I don't think it's that hard to get one with HDMI. I think the Dell Studio desktop has HDMI, which should give you both video and audio. As a warning, I had to do some tweaking before HDMI-out on my ATI 4650 looked OK on my Samsung HDTV.

I think I have a PVR-150 in my other PC. I could swap it out if I needed a 1/2 height card.

Just to be clear, not all PVR-150s are half height. Hauppauge made one that was, but I think most sold were full height.

[fastoy]

I hadn't thought about recording local channels in HD. My cable provider (Comcast Memphis) sends a fair number of clearQAM HD channels. They seem to come and go from time to time though. I wonder if the SageTV program guide covers these? (With my SageTV server DEAD right now, I can't go look at them!) I'd need that to effectively record from them. For example 80.3 is the local NBC affiliate in HD. Obviously, I'd need a new capture card to do that.

I may initially just replace the system unit but do it with the eye to replace the capture card and Hauppauge Media Extender down the road.

You're right on the VGA. I had forgotten that the reason I went to the AGP video card to get S-Video out of the PC interface was that my old SD TV didn't accept VGA input.

I'll pop my other PC open and look at the PVR-150 card.

Thanks for the thoughtful and valuable responses.

Originally Posted by reggie14

The HD200 would provide a snappier interface, better youtube support, and much better support for mpeg4/divx/xvid/h.264 videos. I think you would get better video for ripped DVDs, as you could output 480p instead of just 480i. But, if all you're doing is watching recorded SDTV, the HD200 wouldn't buy you a whole lot.

But, out of curiosity, since you already have an HDTV, aren't you interested in at least recording the local network channels in HD? Over-the-air and QAM tuners aren't very expensive these days. Of course, then you would need the HD200, which brings up the cost.



I think you should try it both ways. To your eyes the video card output off your computer might look better. I think it also matters how much you tweak your video decoders.



If you have an HDTV, I see no reason to not use VGA, assuming your HDTV has a VGA input. Otherwise, if you're still getting a new computer, I don't think it's that hard to get one with HDMI. I think the Dell Studio desktop has HDMI, which should give you both video and audio. As a warning, I had to do some tweaking before HDMI-out on my ATI 4650 looked OK on my Samsung HDTV.



Just to be clear, not all PVR-150s are half height. Hauppauge made one that was, but I think most sold were full height.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by fastoy

I wonder if the SageTV program guide covers these? (With my SageTV server DEAD right now, I can't go look at them!) I'd need that to effectively record from them. For example 80.3 is the local NBC affiliate in HD.

I'm sure the SageTV guide data covers them. But, Sage won't know what channel numbers map to what television stations. So, there's a channel remapping process where Sage first identifies the different QAM stations you get, then you step through them one by one and identify them basically by hand. It's sort of annoying to do, but it's not too bad. Sage is apparently working on a new interface for doing channel remapping for the next release. At some point they might be able to automate it. I think the process is a bit more automated on the HDHomeRun tuners than the Hauppauge tuners.

[fastoy]

I'll need to upgrade from SageTV v5 to v6 for the HD won't I?

I've been looking at the HP s3700z. It's just a little over $400 + shipping with HDMI output. I need to make sure I can use my PVR-350 in it though.

Will SageTV v6 run on Vista 64-bit?

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm sure the SageTV guide data covers them. But, Sage won't know what channel numbers map to what television stations. So, there's a channel remapping process where Sage first identifies the different QAM stations you get, then you step through them one by one and identify them basically by hand. It's sort of annoying to do, but it's not too bad. Sage is apparently working on a new interface for doing channel remapping for the next release. At some point they might be able to automate it. I think the process is a bit more automated on the HDHomeRun tuners than the Hauppauge tuners.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by fastoy

I'll need to upgrade from SageTV v5 to v6 for the HD won't I?

Technically, I think SageTV v5 supported HDTV, but I don't know what tuners were supported. In any event, the upgrade to v6 is well worth the $40 fee. I recommend it whether you get an HD tuner or not.

I've been looking at the HP s3700z. It's just a little over $400 + shipping with HDMI output. I need to make sure I can use my PVR-350 in it though.

It won't. From what I read, the s3700z has 2 PCI-e slots, but no PCI slots, which is what the PVR-150/250/350 use. Also, they look half-height to me in the pictures, and the PVR-350 definitely isn't a half-height card.

I don't think you're going to be able to get a slimline PC from anyone and still use internal TV tuners.

Will SageTV v6 run on Vista 64-bit?

Yes, it does. I don't have experience with it- my server is still running XP- but it should work. As a computer security guy I hate saying this, but you should probably turn off UAC on any Vista SageTV server box to save yourself some headaches.

But, I don't think your PVR-350 will work under 64-bit Vista. Hauppauge never released drivers for it. Also, the older PVR-250/450 cards don't work in any computers with 4 gigabytes or more of RAM. Again, that's a driver problem. Hauppauge fixed the 4GB issue in the drivers for the newer cards, but not the old ones.

[fastoy]

Originally Posted by reggie14

It won't. From what I read, the s3700z has 2 PCI-e slots, but no PCI slots, which is what the PVR-150/250/350 use. Also, they look half-height to me in the pictures, and the PVR-350 definitely isn't a half-height card.

I don't think you're going to be able to get a slimline PC from anyone and still use internal TV tuners.

Yuk. Maybe for the time being I'll get my GX270 repaired!

Overall, I'd like to upgrade my capture/tuner card with something that will do DivX and H.264 but I'm not ready to put out for that now. Suggestions on an external capture/tuner card when I do upgrade?

Originally Posted by reggie14

Yes, it does. I don't have experience with it- my server is still running XP- but it should work. As a computer security guy I hate saying this, but you should probably turn off UAC on any Vista SageTV server box to save yourself some headaches.

My interest in Vista is only because I can't get ANY new box without it. XP is fine for a SageTV server.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by fastoy

Overall, I'd like to upgrade my capture/tuner card with something that will do DivX and H.264 but I'm not ready to put out for that now. Suggestions on an external capture/tuner card when I do upgrade?

In general, capture cards and analog TV tuners encode to mpeg2. There used to be one internal card that encoded to divx, but you probably can't get it anymore. And, even if you could, in general it's a better idea to just buy more hard drive space than pay the premium for those kinds of cards. Hauppauge does have one external card that captures analog and digital TV. I've never used it, but it's probably OK.

The exception is the HD-PVR. That external capture device encodes to H.264. The cool thing about it is that it is the only device that captures high-definition video. It's a little on the expensive side as a result. Its reliability has also been questioned by many of the forums, but there seems to be a set of "best practices" that improves stability at the expense of some of the functionality.

[fastoy]

GOOD NEWS!

My problem is fixed! The add-in video card was blown. I just pulled it out and went back to using the on-board video. That's fine as I use the Hauppauge Media Extender to generate the TV output.

Now I at least have more time to consider my alternatives.

Thanks for all the information and suggestions. I will carefully consider these when I decide to "Start Over."