WHS Sage Server access to shares on another server

[rmac321]

On my XP Sage Server, I use service mode as a user (not localhost). To access shared files on a network share, I also enabled the guest account on the share's computer and the Sage Server is able to access and play these files.

On my test WHS Sage Server, I'd also like to access those same network shares. Guest access is still enabled on those shares, but I don't see that it is an option to configure a "user" for the Sage service on WHS. I can "browse" and see the files from SageTV, but if I click on them, I get playback exception access errors. If I instruct SageTV to rescan imports, none of the files appear in their appropriate menus. These are the same errors that I overcame in the normal (non-whs) version by using the "user" mode of the service and guest access on the share.

What is the trick to getting SageTV on WHS to access shares on other computers?

Is there a FAQ specific to WHS on SageTV and/or an installation manual anywhere? Nearly all of the threads in the forum relate to 64k clusters and other drive configuration issues.

[GKusnick]

Why use the guest account? That's usually considered a security hole and should remain disabled. On the server that holds the files you're trying to access, set up an actual user account matching the user name and password that your Sage service logs in as. (And make sure all machines are in the same workgroup or domain.)

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by rmac321

What is the trick to getting SageTV on WHS to access shares on other computers?

The trick is: don't use shares on other computers; move the data to WHS, like it's designed for.

I used to have 2-6 drives in each workstation but since I moved all of the data to WHS, I only use 1-2 drives per WS and it will also free up more drives to use with WHS.

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Why use the guest account? That's usually considered a security hole and should remain disabled. On the server that holds the files you're trying to access, set up an actual user account matching the user name and password that your Sage service logs in as. (And make sure all machines are in the same workgroup or domain.)

I agree, I'd rather have guest access off. On my XP Server, I use service mode using a login and password. That same user and login already existed on my HP MSS running WHS. IIRC, everything except Sage could/would access the shares on the MSS. I had to enable the Guest account and then Sage finally was able to access them.

On the current WHS Sage Server I'm playing with, I had to enable Guest access in order for SageTV to see the shares on itself;

If there is a way to get SageTV to access network shares without guest access enabled, I'd very much like to know.

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

The trick is: don't use shares on other computers; move the data to WHS, like it's designed for.

Fine in theory, but until I get the bugs worked out, the only thing this server will be doing is SageTV related stuff. With all the tinkering required with SageTV, I'm nowhere near ready to turn over backup operations to this machine. Music, Photos and Videos will also stay safely on the MSS until the Sage Server is stable. The MSS just works and will not be taken out of service anytime soon.

As I type this, the WHS Sage Server has locked up for the 2nd time in an hour. The MSS OTOH is happily backing up the laptop I'm typing away on right now.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by rmac321

Fine in theory, but until I get the bugs worked out, the only thing this server will be doing is SageTV related stuff. With all the tinkering required with SageTV, I'm nowhere near ready to turn over backup operations to this machine. Music, Photos and Videos will also stay safely on the MSS until the Sage Server is stable. The MSS just works and will not be taken out of service anytime soon.

As I type this, the WHS Sage Server has locked up for the 2nd time in an hour. The MSS OTOH is happily backing up the laptop I'm typing away on right now.

That's where you have it backwards. Putting your media on WHS will keep it safe (assuming you use duplicated shares) no matter how much tweaking you do on Sage. You'd have less bugs if you ran the Sage as the Local Service account and had it accessing the WHS shares. Since you're trying to make Sage use "other" shares you have to use a different account for the service. One of the main reasons for running Sage on WHS is for the storage.

As for your backups, that's different than the Sage storage/share issue, unless you're trying to play your backups on Sage. During the weekend, I ran 6 manual WHS backups of my workstation and 4 automatic backups of this and other workstations.

My suggestion for moving your media to WHS for Sage to access, instead of telling Sage to use other shares still stands. If you want help with your backup or other issues, you'll have to provide more information or ask on the WHS forums.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by rmac321

I agree, I'd rather have guest access off. On my XP Server, I use service mode using a login and password. That same user and login already existed on my HP MSS running WHS. IIRC, everything except Sage could/would access the shares on the MSS. I had to enable the Guest account and then Sage finally was able to access them.

On the current WHS Sage Server I'm playing with, I had to enable Guest access in order for SageTV to see the shares on itself;

If there is a way to get SageTV to access network shares without guest access enabled, I'd very much like to know.

You need to use the same User ID and password on all machines for them to have access to the shares. They all also need to be in the same Workgroup. Any Vista machines need to have it configured as a private network with network discovery and file sharing turned on.

Gerry

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

That's where you have it backwards. Putting your media on WHS will keep it safe (assuming you use duplicated shares) no matter how much tweaking you do on Sage. You'd have less bugs if you ran the Sage as the Local Service account and had it accessing the WHS shares. Since you're trying to make Sage use "other" shares you have to use a different account for the service. One of the main reasons for running Sage on WHS is for the storage.

I don't disagree that the actual data will be safe, however I do disagree whether or not it will be accessible. If I am tweaking and such, or worse, rebooting, then that data is not accessible to other computers. "Sorry honey, you can't look at your photos for a few minutes while I reset something" is not an option. Plus, if I really screw something up and need to take the unit offline, my MSS is still available to the HD200 in standalone. So, like I said earlier, in the long run it may be better for everything to be on one computer, but for now during testing that data will not be migrated.

2nd, until I am convinced I like the WHS platform better for Sage, it doesn't make sense to migrate. My XP Sage Server works well and is pretty stable. If I get the same results I may or may not make the switch. If I get BETTER stability, then I will definitely switch, but like I said, my stability is pretty good on XP. I should also note that I am using a 120 day trial, so until I decide to buy WHS, I'm not migrating all that stuff to a temporary box.

3rd, I think it should be a standard feature for SageTV to be able to see a share on another box, regardless of what operating system is on either box. The only prerequisite should be that the user has access permissions on both boxes. FI, suppose a friend comes over with a laptop full of family photos. All I would need to do is add that user, temporarily or permanently, as a user on my Sage Server and then Sage would be able to show those photos on my TV. I don't want to migrate those files, all I want to do is display them. FWIW, it just occurred to me that this could be used as a form of parental and/or content control. If you segregated certain content (adult or whatever) to a certain server, it could be made unavailable to SageTV by merely taking it off the LAN.

4th, I may want to use media/data on my MSS with other computers and other applications, so why take processing power and network bandwidth away from the Sage Server for non-Sage use?

Originally Posted by S_M_E

As for your backups, that's different than the Sage storage/share issue, unless you're trying to play your backups on Sage. During the weekend, I ran 6 manual WHS backups of my workstation and 4 automatic backups of this and other workstations.

I almost never do manual backups. I don't need to because my automatics happen every night like they are supposed to since the MSS is never offline being tweaked. WAF is crucial and the MSS achieved this in spades. One of the more recent was when I resurrected a year-old excel file for my wife the other day. She realized she made a change to a file a year ago and was pissed that she hadn't saved a copy pre-revision. I reminded her that even though she hadn't saved a copy, the MSS had, and because of the cool way it shows backups, it was a breeze to find a copy for her.

As I noted in an earlier thread, my auto backups happen during primetime TV and that will not change. We are OTA only and while most of the programming is crap, the networks tend to put the few shows we like on at the same time. There are one or two nights where all 3 tuners get used to record HD. Add 2 threads of comskip and one or two extenders in use and the processor is getting a workout. Will backups push it over the edge? In my case, I don't need to find out since I have my backups being handled by another machine, so why mess with it? I can defer one or both comskips if that becomes a problem, but backups cannot be deferred.

Originally Posted by S_M_E

My suggestion for moving your media to WHS for Sage to access, instead of telling Sage to use other shares still stands. If you want help with your backup or other issues, you'll have to provide more information or ask on the WHS forums.

I'm perfectly comfortable with doing backups. What I clearly need help with is users and permissions. I guess I had hoped someone had already dealt with this or something similar and could point me in the right direction. For instance, surely someone out there added a second WHS server because they have more than 10 client computers. Wouldn't that person want any computer on either WHS to be able to access files on either WHS? Surely they wouldn't want to have to migrate (and triplicate/quadruplicate) all that data to the second WHS.

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by gplasky

You need to use the same User ID and password on all machines for them to have access to the shares. They all also need to be in the same Workgroup. Any Vista machines need to have it configured as a private network with network discovery and file sharing turned on.

I already have matching logins and passwords. All machines on same workgroup. No Vista so far.

This is a Sage/WHS issue, since the shares are visible and readable in other applications.

XP Sage Server accessing a non-Sage WHS Box:
What I'm not grasping is something related to WHS permissions and the way SageTV interprets them. On my XP Sage Server, even with service mode on and configured with a user, Sage wouldn't access the shares on a WHS box. The WHS box had the same user and password as an active user. If you used the "browse" option in SageTV, it could see the files, it just couldn't open them. In other views, they wouldn't even appear. I did a search in the forums and found that others had solved the problem by enabling guest access. I don't like this solution, but gave it a try. When I enabled guest access on the WHS box, SageTV added the files and they could be read. When I disabled guest access, they went away again. I should add a caveat. I had these problems with the XP Server when I set it up with version 6.4. I did not retest this issue on the XP Server after I upgraded to 6.5. I will check that out - hopefully this afternoon.

WHS Sage Server:
On my WHS based SageServer, I couldn't access the shares in UNC mode on that very same box unless I enabled guest access.

Here's a very specific example. In S_M_E's tutorial, in step 23:

23) Point the SageTV "Video Recording Directories" to your new SageTV share. (IE: \\WHS\SageTV ) and click "Continue."

This was not possible. The only way I could see my recording directory was via the D: drive. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place, but AFAIK, in order to see them as UNC paths, you need to go "up" a few levels and select "Network" and drill back down to the directory via its share name. Unfortunately, the WHS computer is not visible, even though it is the very computer you are on. To get SageTV to add the computer and its shares, you need to enable guest access, then those shares become visible to Sage.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by rmac321

I don't disagree that the actual data will be safe, however I do disagree whether or not it will be accessible. If I am tweaking and such, or worse, rebooting, then that data is not accessible to other computers. "Sorry honey, you can't look at your photos for a few minutes while I reset something" is not an option. Plus, if I really screw something up and need to take the unit offline, my MSS is still available to the HD200 in standalone. So, like I said earlier, in the long run it may be better for everything to be on one computer, but for now during testing that data will not be migrated.

You could "copy" the data to WHS for testing if your wife can't accept a reboot or two.

2nd, until I am convinced I like the WHS platform better for Sage, it doesn't make sense to migrate. My XP Sage Server works well and is pretty stable. If I get the same results I may or may not make the switch. If I get BETTER stability, then I will definitely switch, but like I said, my stability is pretty good on XP. I should also note that I am using a 120 day trial, so until I decide to buy WHS, I'm not migrating all that stuff to a temporary box.

Is that the only reason you're looking at WHS, to see if it's more stable? Most people look at WHS for it's other features too...

3rd, I think it should be a standard feature for SageTV to be able to see a share on another box, regardless of what operating system is on either box. The only prerequisite should be that the user has access permissions on both boxes.

If the shares and Sage are setup properly, that is the way it works. There are plenty of people that do it.

4th, I may want to use media/data on my MSS with other computers and other applications, so why take processing power and network bandwidth away from the Sage Server for non-Sage use?

That's what WHS and/or Sage does. Why would you want to not use them the way they're designed?

I almost never do manual backups. I don't need to because my automatics happen every night like they are supposed to since the MSS is never offline being tweaked...

As I noted in an earlier thread, my auto backups happen during primetime TV and that will not change.... Will backups push it over the edge? In my case, I don't need to find out since I have my backups being handled by another machine, so why mess with it?

You certainly don't have to use WHS for backups but if you're not using the WHS features like most people do, then why are you even looking at WHS? It seems that you don't want to do anything "the WHS way."

For instance, surely someone out there added a second WHS server because they have more than 10 client computers. Wouldn't that person want any computer on either WHS to be able to access files on either WHS? Surely they wouldn't want to have to migrate (and triplicate/quadruplicate) all that data to the second WHS.

When I had 2 WHS boxes all of my clients could see the shares on both.

Originally Posted by rmac321

WHS Sage Server:
On my WHS based SageServer, I couldn't access the shares in UNC mode on that very same box unless I enabled guest access.

Here's a very specific example. In S_M_E's tutorial, in step 23:

23) Point the SageTV "Video Recording Directories" to your new SageTV share. (IE: \\WHS\SageTV ) and click "Continue."

This was not possible. The only way I could see my recording directory was via the D: drive. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place, but AFAIK, in order to see them as UNC paths, you need to go "up" a few levels and select "Network" and drill back down to the directory via its share name. Unfortunately, the WHS computer is not visible, even though it is the very computer you are on. To get SageTV to add the computer and its shares, you need to enable guest access, then those shares become visible to Sage.

There may be something wrong with your network setup. If Sage is using the Local System Account then Sage should have no problem accessing the WHS shares on the same machine. If the Sage service is running as "another user" that has access to shares on "other machines" then that should work too.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by rmac321

I already have matching logins and passwords. All machines on same workgroup. No Vista so far.

This is a Sage/WHS issue, since the shares are visible and readable in other applications.

XP Sage Server accessing a non-Sage WHS Box:
What I'm not grasping is something related to WHS permissions and the way SageTV interprets them. On my XP Sage Server, even with service mode on and configured with a user, Sage wouldn't access the shares on a WHS box. The WHS box had the same user and password as an active user. If you used the "browse" option in SageTV, it could see the files, it just couldn't open them. In other views, they wouldn't even appear. I did a search in the forums and found that others had solved the problem by enabling guest access. I don't like this solution, but gave it a try. When I enabled guest access on the WHS box, SageTV added the files and they could be read. When I disabled guest access, they went away again. I should add a caveat. I had these problems with the XP Server when I set it up with version 6.4. I did not retest this issue on the XP Server after I upgraded to 6.5. I will check that out - hopefully this afternoon.

WHS Sage Server:
On my WHS based SageServer, I couldn't access the shares in UNC mode on that very same box unless I enabled guest access.

Here's a very specific example. In S_M_E's tutorial, in step 23:

23) Point the SageTV "Video Recording Directories" to your new SageTV share. (IE: \\WHS\SageTV ) and click "Continue."

This was not possible. The only way I could see my recording directory was via the D: drive. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place, but AFAIK, in order to see them as UNC paths, you need to go "up" a few levels and select "Network" and drill back down to the directory via its share name. Unfortunately, the WHS computer is not visible, even though it is the very computer you are on. To get SageTV to add the computer and its shares, you need to enable guest access, then those shares become visible to Sage.

And is the SageTV service running with the same user ID and password as the rest of your machines and NOT logged in as the local system account? You specifically have to change this after you installed SageTV on WHS.

Gerry

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by gplasky

And is the SageTV service running with the same user ID and password as the rest of your machines and NOT logged in as the local system account? You specifically have to change this after you installed SageTV on WHS.
Gerry

That was pretty much what I was asking in my first post. Perhaps it got lost in my explanation of what worked and what didn't.

Originally Posted by rmac321

On my test WHS Sage Server, I'd also like to access those same network shares. Guest access is still enabled on those shares, but I don't see that it is an option to configure a "user" for the Sage service on WHS. I can "browse" and see the files from SageTV, but if I click on them, I get playback exception access errors. If I instruct SageTV to rescan imports, none of the files appear in their appropriate menus. These are the same errors that I overcame in the normal (non-whs) version by using the "user" mode of the service and guest access on the share.

What is the trick to getting SageTV on WHS to access shares on other computers?

On a standard Sage setup, you have the service control app where you can change between localhost and user mode, but with the WHS add-in, all you have is the Sage tab in the console and all it does is turn the service on and off. Where do you tell Sage to login as a user?

PS. Thanks Gerry for getting this thread back on point.

[GKusnick]

I don't use WHS, but if it's like all the other versions of Windows, there should be a Services console under Control Panel > Administrative Tools or some such. Find SageTV in the Services list and you should be able to configure how it logs in from its Properties panel.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I don't use WHS, but if it's like all the other versions of Windows, there should be a Services console under Control Panel > Administrative Tools or some such. Find SageTV in the Services list and you should be able to configure how it logs in from its Properties panel.

That's where it is, you can also use START- RUN - type: services.msc (hit enter) to get to the services.

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

Is that the only reason you're looking at WHS, to see if it's more stable? Most people look at WHS for it's other features too...
...

S_M_E: As you already know, I already have an HP MSS EX470 that has been in use for over a year. I don't need to be sold on WHS, I already love it. I never said I was against merging my Sage into a single WHS system, I just said I wanted to explore the possibility of having Sage on a second WHS box to see if I could make it work. My MSS is stable and working and it just doesn't make sense to disturb it while I'm still tinkering with a testbed system. I have expressed this in previous threads, so it isn't news to you. This thread was merely a quick shout out to those that have been playing with Sage and WHS to figure out how to configure the Sage user.

For my part, I will refrain from engaging in the debate over the proper use of WHS in the future.

I am not aware of any official installation instructions for Sage on WHS. Part of my original post was for a hint where I might find such a document. I couldn't find one on the SageTV site, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

S_M_E: In your tutorial, in step 20 you say to install the Sage add-in and configure video sources. I don't see any way to configure the video sources from the add-in tab. I had to RD in and start an instance of SageTV to do any configuration. I don't see that the add-in tab does anything except turn the service on and off. Nowhere in steps 20 through 29 does it say to configure a Sage user, let alone HOW to do that. Because no Sage User is configured, steps 23-27 don't work because Sage cannot see the shares as UNC shares.

My original post asked for direction on how to setup a Sage user. I offered further explanation that because I didn't know how to do that, I couldn't get Sage to see the shares. I'm reluctant to just go in through RD and start tinkering with users, groups and permissions without a little direction. Even a gentle nudge toward the appropriate WHS research resource would be useful, but I'm pretty certain my problem is specific to Sage. My network is fine and the shares are visible everywhere except in Sage. Even the 2 WHS boxes can see each other's shares.

So please, tell me what I'm missing in the tutorial or in the add-in that tells me how to setup a Sage User.

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I don't use WHS, but if it's like all the other versions of Windows, there should be a Services console under Control Panel > Administrative Tools or some such. Find SageTV in the Services list and you should be able to configure how it logs in from its Properties panel.

Originally Posted by S_M_E

That's where it is, you can also use START- RUN - type: services.msc (hit enter) to get to the services.

And this is documented where?

For many of us, tinkering with users, groups, and permissions is not something we are used to messing with so we don't take this lightly. I also still don't understand why I have to tinker with user permissions for Sage, but not for other programs. What are the potential adverse effects of this tinkering?

[gplasky]

Windows Services has been a basic staple of Windows since NT 4.0. Windows Services exist in NT 4.0. Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows Home Server, Windows 2003 Server and Windows 2008 server. Windows Services work and operate in basically the same way in all versions. It is available in the Administrator Tools (Services) of the Control Panel or right click on My Computer and choose Manage.

In the Log On tab there are 2 ways for a service to run. As a Local System account or as a user. If run as a Local System account Sage will not have access to other network shares. (Because it is running as a local account-basically a built in account on the local box with no network access)
If you want to run it as a user account the user ID MUST have a password. You will also want it to be a member of the Administrator group. You click the "This Account" radio button and click the browse button. Type the name of the user account (for example Administrator) and click the Check Name button. Once verified then click OK. Now type in the password twice and click apply. You should see a dialog box stating that it won't take effect until after the service is restarted.

As long as the service is the same user ID that has access to the shares on the other machines you shouldn't have to "tinker" with users, groups or permissions. But you DO need to know and understand the basics of a network and how they work because that is in effect what you are installing. A network consisting of a WHS and various machines. You need to know the basics of creating shares and user ID and passwords. Not too long ago WHS was an OEM only product so it was expected for you to know how this would operate.

This should get you on the right track and fix your current issues.

Gerry

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by rmac321

I also still don't understand why I have to tinker with user permissions for Sage, but not for other programs.

Programs that run from the desktop do so with the permissions of the logged-in user. Programs that run as services (such as Sage on WHS) have their own login credentials, which can be different from the logged-in desktop credentials. The default login for services is LocalSystem, which can access resources local to that machine, but does not have network access privileges. If you want the Sage service (or any other service) to be able to access network resources, you must (a) configure it to log in a user other than LocalSystem, and (b) make sure that user has the necessary permissions on the network shares it needs to access. From your posts so far, it looks like you've already done step (b), so you shouldn't need to mess with users and permissions any further. You still, apparently, need to do step (a), i.e. configure the SageTV service to log in as the user you've already set up. I gather that there's no way to do that through the SageTV configuration applet on WHS, so you're going to have to do it through the Windows Services console. There's no downside to doing this; it's a necessary step in configuring the SageTV service to access network shares, regardless of what version of Windows you're running on.

Not being a WHS user myself, I don't know where or even if this is documented in the SageTV for WHS docs or third-party tutorials. You'll have to take that up with the authors of those docs.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by rmac321

S_M_E: As you already know, I already have an HP MSS EX470 that has been in use for over a year.

If you said that before I don't remember...

I am not aware of any official installation instructions for Sage on WHS. Part of my original post was for a hint where I might find such a document. I couldn't find one on the SageTV site, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I'm not sure there is an official set of installation instructions either.

S_M_E: In your tutorial, in step 20 you say to install the Sage add-in and configure video sources. I don't see any way to configure the video sources from the add-in tab. I had to RD in and start an instance of SageTV to do any configuration. I don't see that the add-in tab does anything except turn the service on and off.

That's right, you either have to remote in using RDP or use a client, placeshifter or extender to configure Sage since the WHS is headless. All the add-in does (so far ( I keep hoping they'll add more to the add-in)) is give service control and licensing options.

Nowhere in steps 20 through 29 does it say to configure a Sage user, let alone HOW to do that. Because no Sage User is configured, steps 23-27 don't work because Sage cannot see the shares as UNC shares.

That's because the tutorial assumes that Sage is accessing it's own local shares and is running as the local system account. You're complicating it by wanting to access remote shares.

So please, tell me what I'm missing in the tutorial or in the add-in that tells me how to setup a Sage User.

Nothing, my tutorial never intended to cover access shares outside of of WHS.

Originally Posted by rmac321

And this is documented where?

For many of us, tinkering with users, groups, and permissions is not something we are used to messing with so we don't take this lightly. I also still don't understand why I have to tinker with user permissions for Sage, but not for other programs. What are the potential adverse effects of this tinkering?

It's documented with the Windows documentation. Services.msc is not new nor exclusive to WHS.

You could break the SageTV service so it doesn't run at all but if you're not comfortable "tinkering" with services you should find and/or pay somebody that is. That said, changing the logon of a service is pretty simple so if you did something wrong you should be able to put it back the way it was. Take notes or make screenshots if you feel you wont remember how it was before you "tinkered" with it.

[rmac321]

gplasky & GKusnick

Thanks! This is exactly the info that is needed. I'm not afraid to tinker, and I'm not afraid to learn how things work. I just needed a push in the right direction.

Sorry to be so IT illiterate, but Windows passed me by a while back. I try to keep up, but since I don't do this for a living I've fallen way behind. When the kids are gone...