Whole-house audio over ethernet with control at each zone

[mickp]

Originally Posted by CPA

Any experience with Airport Express or Airfoil? I have read that synch is not an issue with these. Is that true?

YMMV. Give the demo of Airfoil and Airfoil speakers a go.

Mick.

[jetradio]

Wow, no one has mentioned Squeezecenter yet? That's what I use and it's amazing. It's changed the way I use my music throughout the house. The server code is free (tons of extensions for it) and the PC client is also free. www.slimdevices.com

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

OKay Sonos is not meant be used with extenders for livetv it will introduces a slight delay in the sound as it has to to be able to keep it in synch in the entire house it is meant for music only.

I was just thinkin. You'd only need the audio in the one room you are watching the TV in, so there's no need to sync with any of the Sonos Zoneplayers in the rest of the house.

[PLUCKYHD]

Toronto,

Correct you only need the audio in the room you are playing it but occasionaly sonos does introduce a lag not major mind you but it is present and visable in my eyes (but it wasn't built/meant for tv either so not thier fault/problem)

As far as airpot express I would stay I way. First it is ITUNES based Second it doesn't allow for multiple different tracks throughout your house.

[nebulink]

The reason this was not mentioned is that the OP wanted perfect sync between zones. As far as I know Sonos is the only system that provides perfect sync between zones.

Originally Posted by jetradio

Wow, no one has mentioned Squeezecenter yet? That's what I use and it's amazing. It's changed the way I use my music throughout the house. The server code is free (tons of extensions for it) and the PC client is also free. www.slimdevices.com

[nebulink]

The other great thing Sonos offers is great online content without the need of a pc to be turned on. You can access Pandora, Sirius Online, Rhapsody and many other free online services.

Once you get a Sonos system you will be amazed at the quality and versatility. There is truly no way to explain it you must experience it.

I believe they have a money back guarantee.

SageTV is great as a DVR but subpar for audio listening needs. Sonos feels this gap.

Good luck with your decision. You may even want to troll around on the Sonos forums.

[jetradio]

Originally Posted by nebulink

The reason this was not mentioned is that the OP wanted perfect sync between zones. As far as I know Sonos is the only system that provides perfect sync between zones.

Squeezecenter supports sync between zones and for the price (free) I think it's worth at least a try. The OP could have the server along with 2 clients up and running in under an hour and test the sync function. I use my iPhone to connect to my Squeezecenter server and manage all of the players in my house, including synching multiple zones. I can use any PC in the house, my iPhone, or even my Wii to control all the zones.

[IVB]

Originally Posted by nebulink

The reason this was not mentioned is that the OP wanted perfect sync between zones. As far as I know Sonos is the only system that provides perfect sync between zones.

not true - any hardware based switcher, even a $150 autopatch off ebay, provides that. of course, that requires running either speaker, cat5, or rg6 wire, but it is certainly the most tried and true way to achieve that outcome.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by IVB

btw, that [Sonos] requires distributing speaker cable throughout the house. if you're dead set against running speaker cable, note that you can use inexpensive baluns with your cat5 to distribute line-level audio and just use a passive matrix switcher a la Xantech or Autopatch. I used to do that, those things are maybe $150 oneBay. But then you have the issue of local amplification, which just drives the cost up more.

No, Sonos does NOT require you to run speaker wire throughout the house. The Sonos Zoneplayers (which send the music around the house to eachother wirelessly) are connect to speakers via speaker cable, just like the computer the OP wants to connect to speakers. He can put the Zoneplayer right beside his computer, in a cabinet in the room, in a room closet or centrally (and only in the last case would he have to 'distribute speaker cable throughout the house).

But, anyway, from the posts on here, I think his original question is answered. He's not going to get perfect sync by having speakers connected to separate computers.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by IVB

not true - any hardware based switcher, even a $150 autopatch off ebay, provides that. of course, that requires running either speaker, cat5, or rg6 wire, but it is certainly the most tried and true way to achieve that outcome.

Yes, but jetradio's statement is referring to the OP's question:

Originally Posted by CPA

Here’s what I want to do. A Multi-zone audio network where each zone has a PC connected to an amp and speakers; where all zones can be “on” simultaneously without delay; where each PC can display and control THE media player, ie. I want to be able to start audio in one zone, go to another zone and open up the same media player and see the audio already running, but then be able to control (skip tracks, etc) from the secondary zone . I would prefer to send the audio over ethernet rather than running audio cable all over the house. Is this possible? SageTV Client? SageTV Placeshifter? J.River Multi-Zone? Airport Express? Airfoil? Remote Desktop?

He doesn't want audio cable running all over the house, so that rules out your solution or a centrally located amplifier connected to all of the speakers to achieve the perfect sync.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

He doesn't want audio cable running all over the house, so that rules out your solution or a centrally located amplifier connected to all of the speakers to achieve the perfect sync.

Well, actually he said he prefers not to go that route, not that he had definitely ruled it out. If cost is a factor, pulling wire might still turn out to be a reasonable solution, depending on (for instance) whether there's an accessible crawl space.

[IVB]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

No, Sonos does NOT require you to run speaker wire throughout the house. The Sonos Zoneplayers (which send the music around the house to eachother wirelessly) are connect to speakers via speaker cable, just like the computer the OP wants to connect to speakers. He can put the Zoneplayer right beside his computer, in a cabinet in the room, in a room closet or centrally (and only in the last case would he have to 'distribute speaker cable throughout the house).

But, anyway, from the posts on here, I think his original question is answered. He's not going to get perfect sync by having speakers connected to separate computers.

Sorry, someone had posted between my posts; i meant that my solution (hardware switcher) requires cable.

He doesn't want audio cable running all over the house, so that rules out your solution or a centrally located amplifier connected to all of the speakers to achieve the perfect sync.

BTW, it doesn't require audio cable, the OP said

I would prefer to send the audio over ethernet rather than running audio cable all over the house. Is this possible?

A hardware switcher is totally content with ethernet, as long as you use baluns on either side to transmit the line-level audio. You just plug both ends of the RJ45 run into a balun, and into the source on one side, and amp on the other. Et voila, use the existing CAT5 runs in your house, it's just not via your "network". I know, because I do that.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by IVB

...BTW, it doesn't require audio cable, the OP said

A hardware switcher is totally content with ethernet, as long as you use baluns on either side to transmit the line-level audio. You just plug both ends of the RJ45 run into a balun, and into the source on one side, and amp on the other. Et voila, use the existing CAT5 runs in your house, it's just not via your "network". I know, because I do that.

Of course if he already has a second run of cat5e/6 cable to the pc's that he wants to connect the speakers to and doesn't mind buying and setting up even more additional hardware at the head end, then he can use a pair of cat5e baluns per run, which will cost him at least $100/run.

But, if he doesn't then he has to do what he didn't want to do, which is run cable all over the house. But, instead of running audio cable it's cat5e cable.

Also, he then, in addition to running the additional cable, has to buy the hardware switcher. And then he has to connect the source to the hardware switcher and have a means of controlling the switch, both of which means even more cabling and maybe even more baluns. And so on. It is not a simple, nor easy solution.

Now he could also place the switch (or for that matter an multi-room amplifier) beside one of the PC's but then he has to run audio cable (or ethernet and baluns) to the other set(s) of speakers and he likely has a home run ethernet cabling design.

[IVB]

I apologize, you're making some statements that i'm not tracking with, perhaps i'm missing something.

But, if he doesn't then he has to do what he didn't want to do, which is run cable all over the house. But, instead of running audio cable it's cat5e cable.

But he already said he's okay with running audio over ethernet, unless you're seeing something i'm not?

Of course if he already has a second run of cat5e/6 cable to the pc's that he wants to connect the speakers to

sorry, not clueing in. Why would you need a PC at the room end? You could just use any two channel amplifier, and hook that up to regular speakers. You can get an amp for $100, and an RS232 monitorable hardware switcher for $150 off eBay. There's a variety of options available for controlling the hardware switcher on a variety of display devices.

So at the head-end you have your source (presumably a Sage PC), a $150 hardware switcher. Baluns are perhaps $70/pair, and the room end is the $100 amp. A 3 room solution is 3 * $100 + 3 * $70 + $150 = $660 for hardware.

For control, you can use any of a handful of software packages which allow you to use any PC or wallmount touchscreen or PDA that you want and/or already own.

I agree that Sonos is a great solution and it just works, but it's expensive, and there's many options out there that allow you to do a hell of a lot more at a better price point if that's the way the OP wants to go.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by IVB

But he already said he's okay with running audio over ethernet, unless you're seeing something i'm not?

Ok, well I don't think he said he didn't want to run audio cabling because he has something against audio cable itself. I think it's implicit in his statement that he wants to use the ethernet cabling he already has, because if he can't then he has to run more cabling. If he only has 1 ethernet cable to his pc's he's going to have to run another set of ethernet cabling (and rip open walls, etc), unless there is some way to run his network and audio over a single ethernet cable. Do you know if there is?

Originally Posted by IVB

sorry, not clueing in. Why would you need a PC at the room end? You could just use any two channel amplifier, and hook that up to regular speakers. You can get an amp for $100, and an RS232 monitorable hardware switcher for $150 off eBay. There's a variety of options available for controlling the hardware switcher on a variety of display devices.

He says he wants PC's there in his post.

Originally Posted by IVB

So at the head-end you have your source (presumably a Sage PC), a $150 hardware switcher. Baluns are perhaps $70/pair, and the room end is the $100 amp. A 3 room solution is 3 * $100 + 3 * $70 + $150 = $660 for hardware.

That would work if he's already got that second ethernet cable running or can run both ethernet and audio over the same cable.

Originally Posted by IVB

For control, you can use any of a handful of software packages which allow you to use any PC or wallmount touchscreen or PDA that you want and/or already own.

I agree that Sonos is a great solution and it just works, but it's expensive, and there's many options out there that allow you to do a hell of a lot more at a better price point if that's the way the OP wants to go.

Yup, Sonos isn't cheap but it only takes 10 min to set up out of the box and for $660 (and I think you are a bit light on the hardware costs) he could get two used ZP100 or ZP120 amplified zone players, avoid the time and cost of potential extra cabling and avoid the switcher and software installation.

I guess, in the end, it all boils down to whether or not he's got more than 1 homerun ethernet cable in the wall or not.

[paulbeers]

OKAY! Enough! Can I just recap so we can put this thread to bed:

It is NOT possible to get perfect synchonization using multiple computers.

No matter what the OP does, it will not be perfectly synced. Back to my original post that technically every sound card out there plays back music at a slightly different rate. I even just did a test using Squeezecenter on my Sage server, serving to my main desktop and one of my laptops. The playback was imperfect. The synchornization slowly slipped (my laptop actually played back the music ever so slightly faster).

So what have we learned? The only way to play back multiple zones with perfect synchonization is to use a hardware solution. Whether that hardware solution is to use an A/V Matrix Switch w/ multiple amplifiers or to go the route of Sonos or Squeezebox is personal preference.

Edit: I should state though that in playing with Squeezecenter, I will no longer VNC into my server, but rather just use Squeezecenter thru internet explorer. A much better choice.

[IVB]

I don't see the reason for the CAPS LOCK YELLING and "put the thread to bed", the conversation is about exploring each option so as to properly understand each hardware option to make that personal determination.

Sure, there's been point & counter-point, but it's been entirely polite, and I don't see any posts made that didn't add new information to the discussion. This is how the OP & lurkers can make the determination. Otherwise we'll just have another thread with "pros/cons of hardware solution for audio distribution that have ethernet control at each zone".

(BTW, just so this post adds new info, eBay #220360860498 is an Autopach 1YDM audio distro unit with RS232, and it's $100 B.I.N. The rest of the parts are easily obtainable brand new at the price level I quoted).

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by IVB

I don't see the reason for the CAPS LOCK YELLING and "put the thread to bed", the conversation is about exploring each option so as to properly understand each hardware option to make that personal determination.

Sure, there's been point & counter-point, but it's been entirely polite, and I don't see any posts made that didn't add new information to the discussion. This is how the OP & lurkers can make the determination. Otherwise we'll just have another thread with "pros/cons of hardware solution for audio distribution that have ethernet control at each zone"..

I couldn't have said it better myself. Healthy debate and constructive criticism is what makes this forum great. No one is being forced to read a thread.

[thomaszoo]

I am looking for a little bit different solution, but am trying to learn all possibilities out there. Not trying to hijack this thread, but I think what I am looking for may be somewhat similar. I have a D-Link DNS-323 network storage w/built-in I-tunes server. Honestly, I am not sure what that means. What I would like to be able to do is to play music without a PC turned on. I would love to be able to control it all with an I-pod Touch. Right now I am looking at getting an Airport Express and using my Eee PC netbook to feed it. Any thoughts?

[SomeWhatLost]

Originally Posted by thomaszoo

I am looking for a little bit different solution, but am trying to learn all possibilities out there. Not trying to hijack this thread, but I think what I am looking for may be somewhat similar. I have a D-Link DNS-323 network storage w/built-in I-tunes server. Honestly, I am not sure what that means. What I would like to be able to do is to play music without a PC turned on. I would love to be able to control it all with an I-pod Touch.

that actually describes Sonos 100%... FWIW it sounds like you would be perfectly happy with Sonos...

Originally Posted by thomaszoo

Right now I am looking at getting an Airport Express and using my Eee PC netbook to feed it. Any thoughts?

not sure what you are planning on doing with a PC, but I don't know much about the airport, maybe it needs a PC for some reason?

one of the nice things about sonos is the ZP-100 (or 120), you decide you want music in room X, you just need to throw a ZP-100 and a couple speakers in there and you are done... no mess, no setup, just connect the speakers and you are done...