Windows 7 Media Center

[S_M_E]

I doubt Sage would want to support the competition like that but nobody knows what the future will bring...

[Brent]

Originally Posted by fyodor

...IMNAAHO SageTV's only really compelling feature is its TV engine. It's a sufficiently compelling feature that many people put up with other limitations to take advantage of its vastly superior recording capabilities. I know that some people prefer the interface/media features too, but many people don't, and at the very least it doesn't seem to be what drives people to STV.

I have to disagree with that. For me it is true that TV/PVR is important - extremely important and yes it is a major strength of SageTV. But, I think there are other reasons people choose SageTV over MC and other solutions. Here's a few of them:

• True, Server/Client architecture.
• Software client PCs (known as softsled to the MC folks)
• Excellent Extenders. HD100 and now HD200 surpass anything the VMC or Windows 7 crowd have available to them imo.
• Movies, Music and TV all run from a single server (see first point above) which provide the user the "follow-me" ability. in other words start a show/movie/song on one TV, stop it and start up in another room on another TV where you left off.
• No DRM or false alarms for no-copy.
• Flexibility - change the UI, change the look and feel make it what you want it to be.

VMC looks awesome. Windows 7 looks pretty much like VMC with a few very nice albeit slight, feature additions. Windows 7 will outsell SageTV by a long shot but not because it functions better imo.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Brent

I have to disagree with that. For me it is true that TV/PVR is important - extremely important and yes it is a major strength of SageTV. But, I think there are other reasons people choose SageTV over MC and other solutions. Here's a few of them:

• True, Server/Client architecture.
• Software client PCs (known as softsled to the MC folks)
• Excellent Extenders. HD100 and now HD200 surpass anything the VMC or Windows 7 crowd have available to them imo.
• Movies, Music and TV all run from a single server (see first point above) which provide the user the "follow-me" ability. in other words start a show/movie/song on one TV, stop it and start up in another room on another TV where you left off.
• No DRM or false alarms for no-copy.
• Flexibility - change the UI, change the look and feel make it what you want it to be.

VMC looks awesome. Windows 7 looks pretty much like VMC with a few very nice albeit slight, feature additions. Windows 7 will outsell SageTV by a long shot but not because it functions better imo.

Adding a few things to the list:

- Real support relationship (ever tried to get support for Media Center from MS?)

- Community has insight, and input into feature development (ehome can't even clearly define who they are building MC for).

- Designed for extensibility (i.e. it's a platform); mostly for the developers who want to build cool apps (but beneficial to everyone else too ).

There are some really cool things about VMC/7MC (mostly UI); but once you get past the flash I don't really see much there that would compel me switch back.

[fyodor]

Well, the client/server engine and softsled capabilities (at least WRT to TV) are the product of the TV engine. If the backend were an STV product, there's no reason that the MCML frontend couldn't be on another system (or multiple other systems).

As for the comment about supporting the competition, people would still need to buy Sage Server licenses for the backend TV engine. They'd just be running the frontend on a VMC system.

Originally Posted by Brent

I have to disagree with that. For me it is true that TV/PVR is important - extremely important and yes it is a major strength of SageTV. But, I think there are other reasons people choose SageTV over MC and other solutions. Here's a few of them:

• True, Server/Client architecture.
• Software client PCs (known as softsled to the MC folks)
• Excellent Extenders. HD100 and now HD200 surpass anything the VMC or Windows 7 crowd have available to them imo.
• Movies, Music and TV all run from a single server (see first point above) which provide the user the "follow-me" ability. in other words start a show/movie/song on one TV, stop it and start up in another room on another TV where you left off.
• No DRM or false alarms for no-copy.
• Flexibility - change the UI, change the look and feel make it what you want it to be.

VMC looks awesome. Windows 7 looks pretty much like VMC with a few very nice albeit slight, feature additions. Windows 7 will outsell SageTV by a long shot but not because it functions better imo.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by fyodor

Well, the client/server engine and softsled capabilities (at least WRT to TV) are the product of the TV engine. If the backend were an STV product, there's no reason that the MCML frontend couldn't be on another system (or multiple other systems).

It would be very difficult to replicate the Live TV experience using MCML. I'm not going to say impossible (a lot of custom dshow work would probably be required), but certainly not easy or fun.

[comet48]

Originally Posted by tedson

If Windows 7 has the features of vista plus HD-PVR support I will be buying a couple of Xboxs and switching. The UI is better hands down. With plug-ins you can do better than a video-ts directory you can mount isos. The photo slide show is cleaner (better transitions which I know is stupid but the wife loves them) the visualizations for music are better (as in there are some.) It just feels slicker.

I don't know why Sage doesn't do whatever it takes to acquire the rights to SageMC and make it a first class citizen and the default UI. They have to know that 90% of the people that ever look at Sage think its UI blows (and hence use SageMC.)

You have SageMC as an option but then you end up where I am, with SageMC specific bugs and Sage isn't going to fix them and the creator of MC may or may not fix them.

Sage isn't going to win as long as their customers are forced to run unsupported major mods on a beta release of a program. That's just not a professional way to make and sell software, and people who pay money export more.

Yes, for some reason Sage decided to not play audio with its video for half a day until I got home and rebooted everything. Yes, I had to listen to the wife yell at me again for switching from the Dish DVR to Sage, and yes, I felt like ranting.

Agree with you 100% The standard interface is really horrible - designed by software engineers obviously. SageMC is just light years ahead. Make it the defaulf interface!!!!!!!!!!!

[heatvent]

Originally Posted by ikarus79m

Just installed the beta of Windows 7 and I must say that it is - for now - my software of choice.

I've been with SageTV since Version 2, however, Windows 7's Media Center has intrigued me enough to at least give it a fair shot for some time.

There's also a round up of the new features here:

http://www.mediacenterblog.net/gener...7-media-center

I really wonder if Sage is planning to counter Windows with SageTV 7. Oh man, how much I'd wish a complete revamp of their interface... oh well...

Haven't read the whole thread but I have to agree wth this guy. Took me 30 min to install the OS and another 20 min to setup media center including scanning, adding CCC and my media extender. Have to say frickin awesome. I don't know what they did but I got poor quality video in VMC, very softened. The picture is fantastic. It recognized all tuners on my HVR 2250 setup the guide everything with a few buttons. No screwing around with channel logos, channels that didn't tune right, change the interface to SageMC and the result is a very polished very easy to use media center with 95% of what one might want. I will be using the RC until it expires unless there is an unforseen disaster.

[aflat]

My big problem with VMC was not being able to play my blu-ray rips on the Xbox360 as an extender. It couldn't play MKV, and add to that if the file was over 4gigs, and not a WMV it couldn't play that either. If those are fixed, it may be worth looking at but I still doubt it. The HD200 are true extenders, quiet, can play anything, and tiny.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by aflat

My big problem with VMC was not being able to play my blu-ray rips on the Xbox360 as an extender. It couldn't play MKV, and add to that if the file was over 4gigs, and not a WMV it couldn't play that either. If those are fixed, it may be worth looking at but I still doubt it. The HD200 are true extenders, quiet, can play anything, and tiny.

Besides a slick UI, with some new clumsy navigation, 7MC is more of the same.

[heatvent]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Besides a slick UI, with some new clumsy navigation, 7MC is more of the same.

Not sure if I agree that it is more of the same. Maybe for some features but I think the interface is improved (larger font better graphics/effects), better performance (clearer picture less spinning circles), support for hybrid tuners, support for ClearQAM, new online content. These are all significant improvements. The main issue I think SageTV users will have is you can't get into the system and change/tweak everything. Sage doesn't really have everything everyone wants out of the box except the ability to customize which users have spent a lot of time building features themselves. For those who don't want to customize this is a very good option for a very polished and almost comprehensive system, albeit they may not get everything they want.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by heatvent

Not sure if I agree that it is more of the same. Maybe for some features but I think the interface is improved (larger font better graphics/effects), better performance (clearer picture less spinning circles), support for hybrid tuners, support for ClearQAM, new online content. These are all significant improvements. The main issue I think SageTV users will have is you can't get into the system and change/tweak everything. Sage doesn't really have everything everyone wants out of the box except the ability to customize which users have spent a lot of time building features themselves. For those who don't want to customize this is a very good option for a very polished and almost comprehensive system, albeit they may not get everything they want.

There are new features, and it's certainly better than VMC.

I meant that the same attitudes and slow development cycles that create a frustrating experience if you want to do anything not envisioned by ehome are still there.

They haven't reached parity with what Sage can do today; when I think about how far Sage has come in the last 6 months (about how long I've been using it), how will the comparison look in 6/12/24 months when nothing has changed with 7MC?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by heatvent

For those who don't want to customize this is a very good option for a very polished and almost comprehensive system, albeit they may not get everything they want.

I don't think it fully supports the HD-PVR, does it? If not that means that it has severe issues doing HD, especially if you can't get a CableCard, such as here in Canada, and if you can't do HD in 2009 then it is pretty much useless.

[heatvent]

Originally Posted by babgvant

There are new features, and it's certainly better than VMC.

I meant that the same attitudes and slow development cycles that create a frustrating experience if you want to do anything not envisioned by ehome are still there.

Agreed. Score 1 point for SageTV

Originally Posted by babgvant

They haven't reached parity with what Sage can do today; when I think about how far Sage has come in the last 6 months (about how long I've been using it), how will the comparison look in 6/12/24 months when nothing has changed with 7MC?

I'm not sure how Sage will look. Correct me if I am wrong but Sage gets a lot of it's advanced interface features from it's users. Are they (Sage) planning on investing in the interface so what you get out of the box is not a project in and of itself just to get it up and running. Here are the things I had to do:

* Install Sage
* Install Hauppauge drivers
* Install ATI drivers (video)
* Install SageTVlauncher and disable VMC so I can use a MCE remote.
* Had to try multiple times to get the multiple sources on my HVR2250 working right with the EPG.
* Installed SageMC to get some of the same features of XP media center.
* Tried at least 4 different codecs trying to get video to stop stuttering. Ended buying WinDVD for $39 as that worked the best.
* Poured thorugh forums and started several forum threads to resolve some of the above issues.
* Still have open issues (some HD channels show no data - NBC HD sometimes tunes into Fox HD - wierd).
* Video is still not perfect. I noticed when there is fast movement, video is a bit blurry.
* Still needed to get an extender (another $199 - the MC extender cost me $65).

Compared to what I did for W7 media center:

* Installed W7
* Install ATI drivers (video) - Hauppauge drivers were automatically detected/installed
* Completed TV setup wizard

Playing mulitple file formats, full featured extenders, placeshifting, pc clients are definitely nice features. But the core SageTV system, out of the box, lacks a lot of the interface features and needs a lot more "administration" and monetary investment when compared to media center. MS is slow to market with some things which is what brought me to Sage in the first place (VMC didn't like my hybrid tuner and I didn't care for the picture quality, both of which are not fixed).

Yes if you want bleeding edge technology and open file formats, etc., media center is not what you are looking for. But if you want more free time, system uptime and a higher WAF, Widows 7 is a really good option that doesn't cost anything additional and provides a lot of very good features.

BTW, I am not trying to argue. Everyone has their opinion. I just think this discussion is great for someone considering SageTV vs. Media Center. SageTV fits for one group and Media Center fits for another. At the end of the day, they are not really comparable products.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by heatvent

But if you want more free time, system uptime and a higher WAF, Widows 7 is a really good option that doesn't cost anything additional and provides a lot of very good features.

I disagree but I use Sage in more of a client-server architecture with extenders. It is more reliable than its predecessor which was XP MCE with V1 extenders but most viewing on main MCE PC.

But for me it really comes down to this me:
No cable HD = No F'n good!
DRM restricts what I want to do with my files.

[heatvent]

Originally Posted by wayner

I don't think it fully supports the HD-PVR, does it? If not that means that it has severe issues doing HD, especially if you can't get a CableCard, such as here in Canada, and if you can't do HD in 2009 then it is pretty much useless.

I don't believe so (if you are talking about the cable box -> HD-PVR composite -> PC combo to get encrypted HD channels). I don't use one but I highly doubt Microsoft will support the composite in as a video source but I have no experience with this whatsoever. It will pull unencrypted ClearQAM channels but not encrypted ones.

I'm sure this is the one feature that will keep SageTV as the choice for a lot of people. I personally just get unencrypted ClearQAM channels off of cable. The HD-PVR setup is cost prohibitive in my opinion ($200 for a single tuner + rented cable box, etc.). I would rather just rent the HD-DVR from the cable company for $15/mo than rent a HD receiver for $8/mo and invest $200 for a single HD tuner. 2 year payback is just too much in my opinion.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by heatvent

I'm sure this is the one feature that will keep SageTV as the choice for a lot of people. I personally just get unencrypted ClearQAM channels off of cable. The HD-PVR setup is cost prohibitive in my opinion ($200 for a single tuner + rented cable box, etc.). I would rather just rent the HD-DVR from the cable company for $15/mo than rent a HD receiver for $8/mo and invest $200 for a single HD tuner. 2 year payback is just too much in my opinion.

I would estimate that 80% of my PVR'ed content comes from "premium" channles such as HBO and other movie channels plus cable only sports channels therefore there is no point in having a PVR if I can't record these.

I can playback recorded HD content in four locations in my house. That would require four PVR cable boxes per month which reduces the payback period.

In addition I can buy non-PVR HD cable boxes from my cable co - I bought mine on sale for $100 each.

Having a sophisticated PVR like Sage that gives you access throughout your house has a huge benefit that more than offsets the cost in my opinion. I truly value my leisure time so being able to watch what I want where I want (with no commercials and the ability to skip dead time in sporting action) whether it is in my bedroom, TV room, office, kitchen or pool patio is of huge benefit to me that is worth far more than $500.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by heatvent

BTW, I am not trying to argue. Everyone has their opinion. I just think this discussion is great for someone considering SageTV vs. Media Center. SageTV fits for one group and Media Center fits for another. At the end of the day, they are not really comparable products.

It seems your SageTV experience wasn't the greatest - just don't assume its universal. But its really naive to say that MS Media Center is "easier" to set up than SageTV. If you want the simple MS Media Center experience out of the box, you are saddled with the limitations it presents including: Limited file format (including no ripped DVDs) on extenders, No HD-PVR currently, Do Not Record Messages mucking up some channels recordings, no way to customize menus, transcoding required for playback of certain files etc.

Both Windows MC and SageTV require several kinds of setup and "tweaking" to get what you want and both have their limitations, but they really are in the same ballpark in the HTPC world. If you're a plug it in and take what you get kind of person, Windows Media Center might be for you. If you're one that wants it to work your way kind of guy, SageTV (and a few of the others) is a better bet imho.

Windows 7 has made some good changes from Vista, but much of the changes are very slight. I do think its a step in the right direction, but it doesn't "kick A$$" any more than Vista MC did imo.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by heatvent

I'm not sure how Sage will look. Correct me if I am wrong but Sage gets a lot of it's advanced interface features from it's users.

Yes and no. IMO what really sets Sage appart from VMC is it's core functionality, not the customizations:

• Better tuner support (HD PVR)
• Better OS support (Linux/Mac)
• PC Client
• Placeshifter
• Better extenders (play almost anything including DVDs and Blu-rays)
• Better tuner management*
• Better lineup management* (both of which are somewhat mitigated with the TV pack/7MC)
• No "rogue DRM" problems

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by heatvent

I'm not sure how Sage will look. Correct me if I am wrong but Sage gets a lot of it's advanced interface features from it's users. Are they (Sage) planning on investing in the interface so what you get out of the box is not a project in and of itself just to get it up and running. Here are the things I had to do:

Most of the things you highlight as easier in 7MC are easier because you started on 7 (i.e. the driver stuff).

Sage can be harder to configure than MC, but if you've spent anytime on TGB you'd find that the experience is far from easy for many users. Stutter, tuner and PQ issues are pretty common issues for both applications.

If all you want to do is watch TV, and you're OK with the restrictions MC places on sources and content, then MC is probably the right choice for you (although Tivo is probably a better one).

If you want the real value add for having a PC serving your media (commercial skipping, placeshifting, flexibility, dvd bookmarks, etc) and extenders that work it's hard for me to see MC being a better choice long term.

[Jackal]

I'm about to make a new HTPC build and I was going to give W7 a try to check out the new MC.

I've been using Sage for a few years now and I use it mostly for OTA HD recording. I don't have cable, I just can't justify the cost when I don't watch that much TV. I have used VMC for playing back shows recorded in Sage but I don't use Sage for music. I think back when i did try it the songs never played completely and skipped to the next song. So I use Media Monkey now.

With this new build, I plan on having this rig for a good long time. I'm sure that I'll be back with Sage because I'm familiar with it but I plan to try another program called Media Portal over the summer. I want to give it a run before I setup for the Fall TV season.

A Co-worker was telling me 7MC was much better than VMC but we have different needs with it comes to DVR functions. I have plenty of time because I just ordered the new case this morning and still have some more parts to get after I've explored it. Then I'll give W7 a go.