SageTV - 2 years - 4 versions - better off?

[michaeldjcox]

It is now two years since I first installed SageTV version 6.

My wife has no love of computers so my replacement of ordinary digital TV reception with something run from the computer was quite alarming for her. As we know all computers constantly go wrong and have to be rebooted at least weekly to guarantee performance and correct function!

And it is a one or the other decision as digital TV reception is so weak in the UK while they parallel run with analogue TV that any attempt at signal splitting soon degrades the signal to useless for some channels.

However, SageTV won her over because of the ease of recording, pausing and replaying recorded TV with bonus of being able to play music, show photos, family videos and DVDs. The small footprint of a single Hauppauge MVP helped and we got rid of the DVD player entirely putting all our DVDs on hard drive.

We are now on version 6.4 and acceptance of the occasional unreliability in the face of a great feature set is looking shaky.

It seems to us that those 4 versions of SageTV have brought nothing to increase the headline feature set. We are still hoping to see:

• Streaming Radio to the MVP. We value all media but this one is oddly missing. Ordinary digital TV reception offers DVB-T radio. The Hauppauge MVP client software offers internet radio. But SageTV offers nothing here.
  
• DVD played from the PC DVD drive over MVP. Surely there must be a way?
  
• Access to useful online features like email, movie databases, and other information sources. There is a whole world or possibilities here. All we seem to get so far is short poor quality clips of American TV plus weather - which is good.
  
• A better source of EPG data in the UK used directly from Sage without all this messing about with XML TV and importers. Limitations in the XMLTV EPG data from Radio Times mean that shows that are repeats appear as first runs and sometimes first runs are considered to be repeats when they are not.
  
• A better main menu. The main menu should offer TV, Video, Photos, Music, Radio, Setup - showing the user what he wants. Demotion of other media to a sub-menu I feel is curious. I’m not totally convinced about the TV / Video split. The recorded TV area has a “Movies” tab and I just think wouldn’t it be great if that listed all my DVDs and other imported movies too

.

In those four versions none of the significant reliability issues have been addressed and in fact reliability and performance have suffered.

Our day to day use is plagued by the following scenarios:

• MVP start-up pauses on the 4th "block" on the MVP splash screen. We have to unplug and leave the MVP box for an hour or two to get it back. I have also had to delete contents of the clients directory and therefore loose all customised set up for the MVPs. Particularly irritating here is that parent controls become disabled, flash drives on the PC produce prompts on the TVs by default.
  
• MVP start-up stalls at the SageTV media extender splash screen. I have watched the host PC during such a stall and notice that the memory footprint of the server slowly increasing from 100Mb to 200Mb and beyond during this scenario. If you wait long enough it does appear - but often off and on again from the remote seems to produce quicker return to service.
  
• If the MVP is running while the server is bounced the SageTV MVP application sometimes ghosts as if two versions of the client are running offset by an inch or two from one another. This only affects the menus and not playback.
  
• Response to remote button presses seems very slow in 6.4 and we often wait up to 5-10 seconds for a response moving to another menu or waiting for a dialog to appear. This make it near impossible to use at times.
  
• I notice that on the PC itself the CPU spikes every few seconds when MVPs are on. It was never this bad before. Perhaps the photo screen saver is less efficient than it used to be.
  
• Its memory footprint as seen in windows task manager grows significantly over time and this seems to correlate with poor performance responding to the MVP remote control commands. Reboot of the server seems to help.
  
• I have to maintain a frequency file directly. The scan for channels always picks up the channel signals from a weaker transmitter i.e. we choose Sudbury@EastAnglia but there are two transmitters here one A and B - one offers weaker signals for some channels which the scan seems to pickup instead of the stronger signals. This is a pain because in the UK they are always tinkering with frequencies of TV channels. I have to use other applications to find the channel details to enter into the .frq file.

Many of these issues are mentioned in this forum. Are any of these issues ever likely to be addressed?

It seems to me to be unlikely. I already feel marginalised as a UK user (no EPG/no support for DVB-T radio) and now with the new HD extender (which not available for the UK and does not offer radio either) support for MVP is probably going to diminish.

I feel there is enough good in SageTV to warrant staying committed to it. But only if there is a prospect that at some point some of these issues might be addressed.

Please let me know if addressing any of these issues form part of SageTVs plan for the future, or if not, can portions be made open source (e.g. MVP related code) so others can make up for SageTVs lack of concern or lack of resource.

I for one would be happy to devote my skills as a software developer to the task of fixing some of these problems for the benefit of all.

Otherwise for my family it is probably time to move on. It seems that more and more media centre software and hardware solutions are appearing. The world has been catching up with SageTV in the last two years. So perhaps better solutions exist now.

[Brent]

Don't take this the wrong way but.... Have you ever heard of the HD100 extenders? The mediaMVP was never made to handle HD. Sage makes it work for some, but the MVP is not ideal. The HD100 makes the user experience trouble-free.


For your other points:

• There is no streaming radio for the extenders. I agree this would be nice.
• DVD played from the PC DVD drive over MVP - That would be a DRM restriction. You'll never see a solution for this barring stripping the DRM although I think you could do it with slysoft's product installed on your PC.... I really recommend ripping the DVD to the hard drive. It only takes a few minutes for me and you can always delete it later.
• EPG in the UK - can't comment on that one.
• Better main menu - I'm assuming you mean with the default STV. I agree although others don't. Try SageMC - you can custimize your menu to look and feel however you want it to that way and gain some features.

All of your reliability issues seem to be related to the underpowered MVP. I would buy an HD extender when they arrive next month and see how it improves your situation. The MVP can't do HD without transcoding and has other issues as well. The MVP is dead. Even the GBPVR users are abandoning it.

[Brent]

Another quick comment.

I notice one, single post to these forums in the past year. If you are having this many issues you should consider starting a thread to address your issues one at a time and try to get help. Also might be worth considering issuing a support ticket if you are experiencing SageTV stability issues.

Asking for help sometimes gets help. It does for me at least.

[GKusnick]

Even in the stock STV, the main menu is easily customizable using Nielm's plugin.

Email, movie databases, and the like are also available through third-party plugins.

Beyond that, the entire UI is open source and can be modified or rewritten from the ground up by anyone willing to tackle the Studio learning curve. The core is closed, but has various extension interfaces that permit you to implement your own EPG provider, OSD manager, media player, input handler, etc. (This is how the MVP client was created in the first place.)

[HelenWeathers]

Otherwise for my family it is probably time to move on. It seems that more and more media centre software and hardware solutions are appearing. The world has been catching up with SageTV in the last two years. So perhaps better solutions exist now.

I have spent the last few months chasing the perfect solution. The fact seems to be that there is not currently one. If you take the time to read the forums at Beyond TV, GBPVR and Green Button you'll see that things are really in a state of flux for all TV recording software. That even applies to consumer electronics PVRs as well.

Everyone is struggling to incorporate HiDef recording into their software but are being held back by the number of us who still need support for analog feeds.

Just take a glance at the number of posts regarding getting the analog hybrid tuners to work. I am probably among the few who will be happy when Hauppauge and others no longer make a card that supports analog broadcast processing.

I generally favor function over form (form should FOLLOW function). I too would like to see support for radio broadcasts without need of plug-ins.

I don't know enough about the MVP to comment on that, but in general I would like to see us be able to access all media from our extenders/clients/placeshifter simply. You know, Plug N Play.

I feel your pain but SageTV (and others) have a lot on their plate right now. Give them a little more time. The analog/digital transition is not an easy one. Look at the HD PVR, codecs and recording software. Things are not moving along smoothly. Everything is new. We don't know whether to blame the equipment manufacturer, the codec manufacturer, SageTV or our own computers right now.

We are all grasping at straws right now. It will settle down and Sage will get back to working on improvements to the interface. Give it a few more months. There is nothing better out there right now. I've tried it all.

[matt91]

I'm gonna guess and say that if you updated your java to the latest version, you'd see a big improvement.

I still use a MVP for my SD TV. It's mostly for the kids (which is quite a test, in and of itself), but I watch some transcoded HD on it too. The MVP still works great. No hangs, pauses, etc.

As Brent mentioned, post some requests for help with details of the specific issue, and you'll be able to get closer to a fully working solution.
Matt

[valnar]

OP: The Hauppauge MVP is not good. Get rid of it as soon as the new HD extenders come out. Then come back and update your list of problem. It should be down to missing features.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

The analog/digital transition is not an easy one. Look at the HD PVR, codecs and recording software. Things are not moving along smoothly. Everything is new. We don't know whether to blame the equipment manufacturer, the codec manufacturer, SageTV or our own computers right now.

How is the analog/digital transition causing a problem for PVRs, especially Sage? Surely there aren't many people using Sage (or other PVRs) that have been primarily using analog OTA, are there?

And the analog/digital transition is generally not an issue for cable or at least it is a different issue. I have been using TiVos and PVRs for over 5 years and in that time I have always used them with a digital cable box - that is not a new issue nor is it one that is hard to deal with. I also find it hard to believe why anyone would still be using analog cable with Sage, unless it is as a 3rd or 4th priority tuner - sure it costs a bit to get a cable box but you get dozens (if not hundreds) more channels and better quality.

[matt91]

Originally Posted by valnar

The Hauppauge MVP is not good.

I disagree.

It's true that the MVP doesn't do nearly as much as the HD100 does. However, what it does do - play MPEG2 SD files - I think it does very well.

I think there are lots of folks, myself include, who continue to happily use it.

[HelenWeathers]

How is the analog/digital transition causing a problem for PVRs, especially Sage? Surely there aren't many people using Sage (or other PVRs) that have been primarily using analog OTA, are there?

I wasn't talking about OTA. I was talking about recording SD content vs recording HiDef content. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

As far as software companies are concerned, The point I was trying to make is that they have to maintain compatibility with the old technology while trying to implement the new.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by matt91

I disagree.

It's true that the MVP doesn't do nearly as much as the HD100 does. However, what it does do - play MPEG2 SD files - I think it does very well.

Functionality aside, the video quality (saturated reds, softness, brightness issues) is atrocious compared it to an HD extender IMO, even through composite/svideo. If I bought any other video component - a VCR, DVD player, TiVO, etc - and it had the video quality of the MVP, I would have returned it.

[Brent]

I predict the OP will be absent from the conversation for yet another year (thats how long its been since his last post). He just dropped his flame here and let everyone respond. If I'm wrong, at least we tried to help him. If not

[starfire]

Yes, according to their profile they were last logged on :-
Last Activity: Today 12:46 PM

Why have they failed to respond, do they really want assistance?

And I should add if they want some official support with their issues then raise a support ticket.

[matt91]

Originally Posted by valnar

Functionality aside, the video quality (saturated reds, softness, brightness issues) is atrocious compared it to an HD extender IMO, even through composite/svideo. If I bought any other video component - a VCR, DVD player, TiVO, etc - and it had the video quality of the MVP, I would have returned it.

Have you seen this one more than one MVP? I recall (from years ago) some folks saying that they had issues like this, but that they were fixed by returning the unit and getting a new one.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by matt91

Have you seen this one more than one MVP? I recall (from years ago) some folks saying that they had issues like this, but that they were fixed by returning the unit and getting a new one.

Yah, I did that too. However, once the HD extenders came out I got rid of it.

[michaeldjcox]

Sheesh guys.

I posted yesterday night.

I've been at work since.

Thanks for all your replies I fully intend to and take on board everything and contribute back to the discussion.

True I've only one post in the last year but I have always have tried to consult existing replies before repeat posting about same old problems.

This is a strong forum - and thats a significant benefits of going for SageTV.

My post was born out of a recent frustrating time.

I don't wish to be overly negative.

In fact I really want to become a significant contributer and put some man hours into fixing any outstanding problems for the benefit of all.

[Taddeusz]

If your MVP is responding that slowly you probably need to increase the Java Heap Size for SageTV.

[michaeldjcox]

Many thanks for all your replies and sorry for the mega-moan post.

I plan to quit moaning and take some action in more specific posts, tech support requests, and through some coding. I have 3 hours a day stuck on a train at the moment and plan to use that time to make something happen.

On your replies:

Brent:

a) Thanks for the nod towards SageMC. I followed the link on your post. It does look very cool. I will be trying that this week.

b) I have to admit I am attracted to the HD100. But I've got some questions to resolve in the extender forum. For example: can it do radio of any kind? Reliability and performance wise are people happy with it? Do we know if its available with UK power supply.

c) On my lightweight posting history. I agree I am wrong to passively watch other peoples threads on these issues hoping the answer will pop up. I take your point - I will try and get tech support. Hopefully will be able to persuade them to make some bug fixes in the MVP startup sequence.

GKusnick:

a) The openess of SageTV here is a great benfit. Sounds like I need to tackle the studio learning curve. But I guess with my comment about open source I'm wondering whether I can fix some of the annoying problems with MVP startup if Sage cannot resource a fix. Is the start up and MVP app load bit part of the closed core?

HelenWeathers:

a) I think your reply has helped me a great deal here. I was on the point of either committing to some serious effort or trashing it all for something else. When I looked 2 yrs ago I played with others but SageTV was the best. Its sounds like it probably still is and I should remain committed and work through the troubles.

To all posters about MVP:

Its a great little device. It just there are lots of startup issues and its a bit slow with recent versions of SageTV ( I have increase my heap size to 512Mb and run java 1_6_06)

[Brent]

Originally Posted by michaeldjcox

I have to admit I am attracted to the HD100. But I've got some questions to resolve in the extender forum. For example: can it do radio of any kind?

Thus far, there is no way to get internet radio working on the HD100 without a hack. Also no way to get web browser or Netflix Watch Now on an extender of any kind unfortunately.

Reliability and performance wise are people happy with it? Do we know if its available with UK power supply.

reliability and performance are very, very good in my opinion - much better than the MVP and just as good if not better than a well-powered DIY HTPC client. Don't know the answer to your question on the power supply, but I know there are some UK users so hopefully they can help with that question.

To all posters about MVP:

Its a great little device. It just there are lots of startup issues and its a bit slow with recent versions of SageTV ( I have increase my heap size to 512Mb and run java 1_6_06)

What are your startup issues specifically?

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Brent

Don't know the answer to your question on the power supply, but I know there are some UK users so hopefully they can help with that question.

From what I understand the power supply in the HD100 is capable of running off both 50 & 60 Hz power between 110 & 240v. So as long as you have an adapter you should be able to use it anywhere.

I don't know about the new extender that is coming out but I'd think they'd stick to the same.