Tru2Way Support

[Brett]

Does anyone know of any announced devices that will be Tru2Way to the PC? Does Sage have any stated position on whether they support it?

My understanding is using cablecards (or something similar) the architecture will open up digital channels AND on demand content without a STB.

Thanks!

[wayner]

If I recall correctly Tru2Way is just a new name for CableCard 2.0. Therefore I would think that it would be at least as locked down as CableCard 1.0. Therefore you would need to buy a whole new system that is locked down and be very restricted in terms of what you can do as a result of major DRM on the system.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by wayner

If I recall correctly Tru2Way is just a new name for CableCard 2.0. Therefore I would think that it would be at least as locked down as CableCard 1.0. Therefore you would need to buy a whole new system that is locked down and be very restricted in terms of what you can do as a result of major DRM on the system.

I am not sure if it called CableCard 2.0. But I definitely read that it was far more open as they learned from their mistakes with CableCard 1.0. It still has DRM, but it is much easier to get certified, or something like that.

-Brett

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Brett

I am not sure if it called CableCard 2.0. But I definitely read that it was far more open as they learned from their mistakes with CableCard 1.0. It still has DRM, but it is much easier to get certified, or something like that.

-Brett

Not sure about more open in any way other than the ability to receive information back from the user for VOD etc, but regardless I would be shocked if we ever saw CableCard 1.0 or 2.0 in any HTPC-type machine other than a Microsoft, Tivo or possibly Apple product.

Why? Because it has to be a totally locked down box, has to be a pre-configured box (no diy), the cost and time in developing for a CableCard-ready box would be very prohibitive except for the most cash-rich companies. And I think even Microsoft is questioning whether CableCard development was close to worth it...

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by Brent

Not sure about more open in any way other than the ability to receive information back from the user for VOD etc, but regardless I would be shocked if we ever saw CableCard 1.0 or 2.0 in any HTPC-type machine other than a Microsoft, Tivo or possibly Apple product.

Why? Because it has to be a totally locked down box, has to be a pre-configured box (no diy), the cost and time in developing for a CableCard-ready box would be very prohibitive except for the most cash-rich companies. And I think even Microsoft is questioning whether CableCard development was close to worth it...

I haven't really followed the cablecard support in VMC, but did they ever truly get all the kinks worked out? I remember reading reviews way back when right after cable card support was added (and I believe Dell was the only company selling the device and systems) and all the reviews had nothing but problems (I think Tomshardware even had Dell, ATI, and Cable Co techs on hand and still had problems). I assume they got it all sorted out, but with all the early reviews (plus having to switch from Sage to VMC), I just denounced cable card and stuck with Sage.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

I haven't really followed the cablecard support in VMC, but did they ever truly get all the kinks worked out? I remember reading reviews way back when right after cable card support was added (and I believe Dell was the only company selling the device and systems) and all the reviews had nothing but problems (I think Tomshardware even had Dell, ATI, and Cable Co techs on hand and still had problems). I assume they got it all sorted out, but with all the early reviews (plus having to switch from Sage to VMC), I just denounced cable card and stuck with Sage.

I think they pretty much got most of the kinks worked out. There are a handful of companies selling CableCard systems. Most of the trouble now is with the cable company itself and then with the many problems that come with having DRM a part of the core system. I'll be interested to see how having 1.0 and 2.0 CableCards out there is handled. Will 1.0 be phased out and not supported any longer making those expensive pre-built systems instantly out-of-date?

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Brett

My understanding is using cablecards (or something similar) the architecture will open up digital channels AND on demand content without a STB.

HA! I'll believe they will open up when I see it. Their business model is to control the digital content, and they will do anything to protect it. STBs and DVRs are ways to do that, and I don't see them ever changing it. Many cable companies have plans to plug the analog hole so they can have more control, forcing every customer to get an STB. It's stupid that I have two devices (STB/HD-PVR) running 24/7 to record the HD content I pay monthly service for, but that's the way it must be. I can't complain, just be grateful for Hauppauge and SageTV.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

HA! I'll believe they will open up when I see it. Their business model is to control the digital content, and they will do anything to protect it. STBs and DVRs are ways to do that, and I don't see them ever changing it. Many cable companies have plans to plug the analog hole so they can have more control, forcing every customer to get an STB. It's stupid that I have two devices (STB/HD-PVR) running 24/7 to record the HD content I pay monthly service for, but that's the way it must be. I can't complain, just be grateful for Hauppauge and SageTV.

Actually... Panasonic already has a TV that does both digital and VOD without STB.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Brett

Actually... Panasonic already has a TV that does both digital and VOD without STB.

But we know that is of no use to SageTV users. We need them to open up the standard, and as others have said in this thread, it won't happen. It will be locked down because they want to control the content.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brett

Actually... Panasonic already has a TV that does both digital and VOD without STB.

But the Panasonic is:

1) A TV
2) A closed system
3) Not a recorder

So it's very easy for them to meet the robustness requirements for Tru2Way, plus it's Panasonic, who has plenty of resources to go through the red tape and licensing fees.

The problem is (almost certainly) the robustness requirements for securing content recorded via True2Way will be essentially no different than with OCUR, such that only complete systems can be certified and only the larger OEMs will be willing to deal with the red tape.

[loomdog32]

Dell was the first to market with a DCR CC system XPS 410 (this is the system seen in most of the reviews.. Dell and ATI were usually onsite for the "testing").. Sony, Gateway (now MPC), and HP soon followed......

The OCUR tuner is a QAM tuner, but the CC allows it to tune encripted channels.. An OCUR tuner will tune unencripted QAM WITHOUT a CC in ANY system!!! The CC is the encription key (CC requires BIOS activation AND OS activation - Vista DCR).. OCUR devices have been for sale by themselves on the Sony website since Sony started selling Digital Cable Ready PCs...

The major problem with 2 way communication and VOD/VID is that Comcast/TimeWarner use a different system that is not dependent on Moto/SA STBs.. So, its really up to the CableCos to make a uniform system to allow this to happen..

[Ryokurin]

Originally Posted by loomdog32

The major problem with 2 way communication and VOD/VID is that Comcast/TimeWarner use a different system that is not dependent on Moto/SA STBs.. So, its really up to the CableCos to make a uniform system to allow this to happen..

I believe that's what true2way was supposed to fix. In the end its just java Middleware that cut down on the development work for the cable companies, so all they had to do was write a front end for their standard STB, and it would work on true2way enabled devices as well. Getting back on topic, the devices still have to be cable labs certified, so its still is useless for build your own htpcs.

[jreichen]

Ars Technica has an article about the Panasonic TV being sold in Chicago and Denver. One interesting thing it mentions is the ability to install Java applications. I wonder if SageTV could be installed on certified hardware... I'm sure it would need some modification and go through the red tape. And the hardware would most likely be locked down.

[CollinR]

There are so many cablecard TVs that were approved and yet don't work I have no faith in anything they say.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by Ryokurin

I believe that's what true2way was supposed to fix. In the end its just java Middleware that cut down on the development work for the cable companies, so all they had to do was write a front end for their standard STB, and it would work on true2way enabled devices as well. Getting back on topic, the devices still have to be cable labs certified, so its still is useless for build your own htpcs.

Exactly, although I read the certification was much simplier now. The fact that is java should make it easy to integrate with the middleware.

Also... AMD (aka ATI) appears to be a partner for Tru2Way. Anyway... I guess it is just a matter of waiting and seeing...

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Brett

Also... AMD (aka ATI) appears to be a partner for Tru2Way. Anyway... I guess it is just a matter of waiting and seeing...

Why is that any different than today where ATI was the original developer behind the OCUR CableCard tuner used in Vista? This was first introduced in Jan 2006 at the CES show.