Sage TV & HD-PVR: better with Dish or DirecTV or irrelevant?

[Chriscic]

I had my house networked (wired) today (yea!) and now am moving forward with my whole-house TV solution, which includes a couple of HD-PVRs and several Sage HD extenders.

I am planning on switching from Comcrap (poor reliability for the phone/internet has soured me on them, not to mention that the 1 year promo period is now over); was trying to decide between Dish and DirecTV.

Programming issues aside, I like the idea of the $29.99 HD-only package Dish offers. However, I think they only have DVRs for their HD recievers, and I've heard folks comment that it's better not to use a DVR with the Hauppauge product, because you never know which tuner is doing what and you get annoying "are you ok changing the channel" to record "x" type messages in your recordings. Although now that I think about it, if you never record anything straight from the Dish DVR itself maybe that's not an issue.

I think DirecTV still offers non-DVR HD receivers.

Thanks for any thoughts,
-Chris C.

[stanger89]

Dish has the VIP211 and VIP222 non-DVR HD recievers. The 222's are kind of slick because you can use the main output for SageTV (HD PVR) and feed the second one into your household Coax and use it for surfing.

Functionality wise there's really not much difference, best advantage DirecTV has is their boxes support serial control which can be more reliable (though I've never had trouble with IR).

[mayamaniac]

For me, channel changing is important. I get annoyed when its slow. And with IR it is way too slow. I know DTV boxes has serial input for channel changing, not sure about the Dish boxes. I have cable and the motorola box has firewire which works very well for channel changing.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

For me, channel changing is important. I get annoyed when its slow. And with IR it is way too slow. I know DTV boxes has serial input for channel changing, not sure about the Dish boxes. I have cable and the motorola box has firewire which works very well for channel changing.

Thanks guys! As for serial control, rats there is always something that muddies up the decision. I find the IR-blaster that comes with the HD-PVR works pretty darn well with my Moto box, although there are no guarantees with another receiver. That VIP222 feature sounds potentially useful (thx Stanger89)... unless DirecTV ponies up with an HD-only package real soon now think I'm going Dish.

[sleonard]

Another thing to consider is that one company's boxes passthru the native resolution and the other companies boxes don't. I don't remember which is which but you'll likely want the ones that do passthru for use with the HD-PVR. (the reason being that the STB's scaler and deinterlacer is probably not as good as the one in your PC, extender, HT Reciever, or TV.)

S

[unkyjoe]

My 2 cents.

I have been a DirecTV subscriber for over 15 years now.

I switch to Dish a couple of years ago and was not at all happy, but thats me.

DirecTV paid me to come back, and in my opinion it is the better deal picture and sound wise on the block, plus the receivers are a bit more flexible.

I have a DirecTV HD DVR and use it specifically for HD recordings only in the HT. I find the picture quality excellent on my 100" screen

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by sleonard

Another thing to consider is that one company's boxes passthru the native resolution and the other companies boxes don't. I don't remember which is which but you'll likely want the ones that do passthru for use with the HD-PVR. (the reason being that the STB's scaler and deinterlacer is probably not as good as the one in your PC, extender, HT Reciever, or TV.)

S

DirectTV has native passthrough, DishNetwork does not (though they've been hinting for over a year). This is not a huge problem if you're doing the HD-only Dish package (you'll have to pick whether you want things scaled to 720P or 1080i), but it's critical if you are mixing in any SD channels.

[stanger89]

"Critical" is a bit of an overstatement, it would be ideal in many ways, but the Dish boxes (at least the VIP211) do a pretty good job with SD, better than the HD Extender for example.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by stanger89

"Critical" is a bit of an overstatement, it would be ideal in many ways, but the Dish boxes (at least the VIP211) do a pretty good job with SD, better than the HD Extender for example.

Actually with the HD-PVR I think the file sizes for 480i are going to be *way* inflated, because you are recording upscaled to 1080i or 720P all the time; I think this is what he meant.

If I do go HD-only the point is mostly moot.

[mayamaniac]

Doesn't the HD-PVR has component "pass-through"? Is that different from coaxial pass-through of the STB? Has anyone tried the pass through on the HD-PVR?

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Actually with the HD-PVR I think the file sizes for 480i are going to be *way* inflated, because you are recording upscaled to 1080i or 720P all the time; I think this is what he meant.

If I do go HD-only the point is mostly moot.

Yes, that's what I meant. SD video at HD bitrates is a huge waste of disk space.

Hey, at least you can always change your mind and switch providers after the contract period runs out. I'm stuck with DishNetwork until I die. Or at least until I am willing to sell of the R5000s...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Actually with the HD-PVR I think the file sizes for 480i are going to be *way* inflated, because you are recording upscaled to 1080i or 720P all the time; I think this is what he meant.

Not that much, double tops. I've moved to recording HD (basically all the HD PVR records) at the max bitrate, which is ~6GB/hr, I typically recorded SD via my PVR 250/500 at 3GB/hr. The HD PVR does a pretty good job at 3.8GB/hr for 1080i as well (not sure if upconverted SD would work better or worse at the 3-4GB/hr on the HD PVR.

Remember the HD PVR uses H.264 for compression (approximately twice as efficient as MPEG-2 on the SD devices), and beyond that I think it's encoder is much better than those on say the Hauppauge SD devices.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not that much, double tops. I've moved to recording HD (basically all the HD PVR records) at the max bitrate, which is ~6GB/hr, I typically recorded SD via my PVR 250/500 at 3GB/hr. The HD PVR does a pretty good job at 3.8GB/hr for 1080i as well (not sure if upconverted SD would work better or worse at the 3-4GB/hr on the HD PVR.

Remember the HD PVR uses H.264 for compression (approximately twice as efficient as MPEG-2 on the SD devices), and beyond that I think it's encoder is much better than those on say the Hauppauge SD devices.

I was thinking *way* = 1.5x+ Maybe I should have said "significant."

Good idea though to lower the bitrate setting for the SD to get the filesize down, if I do end up recording some non-HD (the occasional Star Trek marathon or something).

[spaceghost]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

was trying to decide between Dish and DirecTV..

I've had Dish HD for the last 3 years. I used to be able to pull off programming from Cox before that. I've done direct comparison using test files directly from these boxes (not using the HD-PVR). Here is my opinion, Dish SUCKS.

Dish HD sucks for the movie channels. The 'science-type' HD channels are crisp. I am mainly archiving the movie channels to watch later.

I was playing with my HD-PVR and trying to test what bitrate worked the best for me. I started low and ran to the max trying to get a segment to look better. I was watching a recent action film with lots of movement. I was so upset at the HD-PVR because I maxed out the bitrate and it still looked like absolute crud! When I gave up, I switched input on my TV back to Dish and watched the same segment. My apologies to the HD-PVR. It was spot on and Dish was the one looking like crud. Never knew how bad it was since I don't usually watch the TV from 3 feet away. Dish REALLY compresses the movie channels and they don't look very good at all. Just watch a few high motion scenes.

I am relocating soon to STL. I will not remain with Dish. After Hauppauge comes out with 5.1 audio, I'm running thru what I have recorded so far and switching to another provider.

Chriscic, if you have a small HDTV you may not notice....

just my opinion.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by spaceghost

I've had Dish HD for the last 3 years. I used to be able to pull off programming from Cox before that. I've done direct comparison using test files directly from these boxes (not using the HD-PVR). Here is my opinion, Dish SUCKS.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that they all suck. D*, E*, Comcast 3packing, etc... OTA is your best bet if you can do it, and then pick the provider that works best for you the rest.

I'm pretty damn happy with Dish's HD Absolute package, and I'm really happy I get grandfathered in for a while. $45/month for all the non-premium HD channels, locals, Cinemax (with 3, soon to be 4 HD channels!) and 2 VIP-211 receivers. Sweeeeeeet.

And this thread is making me happier about ponying up for the R5000s. I get about 1GB/hour for SD recordings with no quality loss, and something like 3GB/hour for H.264 "HD" (lite) with no quality loss. Of course that also means I'm financially chained to Dish for the forseeable future...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by spaceghost

I am relocating soon to STL. I will not remain with Dish. After Hauppauge comes out with 5.1 audio, I'm running thru what I have recorded so far and switching to another provider.

Where you going to go? I doubt DirecTV or cable is any better. If you want to archive pristine movies, you want Blu-ray.

[garyellis]

I just installed Dish HD only and am feeding the 211 output via Svideo into my Hauppauge 500 tuner card. The output from the Dish 211 receiver is set at 1080i...

2 problems I am having and would love help.

1) the quality is slightly darker than what I was receiving via Time Warenr cable through my Hauppauge 500 tuner card.

2) the aspect ratio (or something).... videos come smaller than the screen...some have bars on top and bottom. some have bars on all sides....doesn't seem consistent... anyway to fix this?

Thanks,

Gary Ellis

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by garyellis

I just installed Dish HD only and am feeding the 211 output via Svideo into my Hauppauge 500 tuner card. The output from the Dish 211 receiver is set at 1080i...

2 problems I am having and would love help.

1) the quality is slightly darker than what I was receiving via Time Warenr cable through my Hauppauge 500 tuner card.

You should be able to go through the capture color calibration (in Source Setup) and compensate for that.

2) the aspect ratio (or something).... videos come smaller than the screen...some have bars on top and bottom. some have bars on all sides....doesn't seem consistent... anyway to fix this?

Nope, the "problem" is the source, all your channels are broadcast 16x9 so the 211 letterboxes everything since SD (S/Video) is 4x3 native. On top of that some networks (correctly) pillarbox the 4x3 content they broadcast (in a 16x9 frame). In which case you end up with the windowboxed video. Only thing you can do is setup an aspect ratio mode to crop all the way around.

[garyellis]

Thanks for #1...

As for the second one..I noticed when I was setting up the 211 that it allowed me to output at 480i or p.... And when I did (not through Sage), the video was fullscreen 4x3... After my wife finishes the current TV show, then I am going to try changing to 480 and see if that changes anything.

Thanks for the help,

Gary

[stanger89]

Well there are a couple of options on the 211. But the issue is the S/Video output is always 4x3 480i, the only options are whether the box letterboxes or crops to fit the 16x9 HD channels into the 4x3 S/Video output.

The only real way to get around it is to get an HD PVR (or R5000) and record the 16x9 HD output.