SageTV HTPC & Tivo video comparison...

[tvmaster2]

AS a long time Sage user, I have never been able to produce what I call a "sharp" picutre from a Hauppauge 150 card via the S-video inputs / PCI card S-Video outputs.

I take a S-Video feed from a satellite receiver (which is DA'd and produces very clean video), and then output the S-video from various video cards (over time). Currently, it's a GeForce 6200 card.

I also have a couple of Tivo's.

When, if ever, will I be able to experience a picture as sharp and devoid of artifacts (saturation, etc.) as the Tivo, from my SageTV HTPC system? Oh, and without a ridiculous amount of "tweaking".

I contunually read here how much "tweaking" people seem to do. I sadly can't spend that much time. Does anyone have a great, QUIET, HTPC setup using SageTV that involves very little "maintenance"?

PS...I have a DVD player in that system, and the output is acceptable. Also, the video quality of Xvid files output from SageTV through the 6200 are also sharp. It's primarily material that was recorded with the Hauppauge that sucks.

It's possible I am doing something wrong, so fire away.

thanks

[CollinR]

Get an MVP the real problems come from the video card output. The hardware decoder in the MVP is very nice and you will notice and improvement in quality.

A would assume same is true for the new HD extender however I don't have one to know.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by CollinR

Get an MVP the real problems come from the video card output. The hardware decoder in the MVP is very nice and you will notice and improvement in quality.

A would assume same is true for the new HD extender however I don't have one to know.

If it were me though I'd get a HD100 extender over the MVP any day. The MVP requires transcoding when viewing HD which requires a decent-powered server, CPU processor.

Based on what the OP is saying though I'm thinking the best route would be to go with a Hauppauge HD-PVR so you could get true-HD out of your satellite box

[Taddeusz]

Yes, media extenders are a night and day improvement in picture quality over hooking up your computer via composite or S-vid. The main issue is that no matter what output resolution you use the video being played back is getting de-interlaced, rescaled and smoothed. As a result the scan lines in the video are never going to match up with the scan lines on the TV. A media extender like the MVP or HD100 are native NTSC output devices. Meaning when they're outputing 480i video via S-vid or composite it's just like it should be if you were watching it live. The video will line up properly with the TV scan lines.

Also, because the white and black levels on video are different than the computer's digital levels some video cards and MPEG decoders do not properly translate those levels between one another. What you end up getting is a really washed out picture. Because the media extenders are by their nature TV video devices there is no color space translation needed so video is displayed properly.

[hchucky]

HD100 for a client is the way you want to go for great video quality. I use PVR 250s for analog capture and an HDHomerun and HD PVR for HD capture. I've used a PC client for years connected to a 50" LCD and I've never come close to matching the picture quality I get when using the HD100 hooked up to the same LCD. My client PC has been retired for a few months now and I don't plan on ever hooking it back up. HD100 ROCKS!

HC

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Yes, media extenders are a night and day improvement in picture quality over hooking up your computer via composite or S-vid. The main issue is that no matter what output resolution you use the video being played back is getting de-interlaced, rescaled and smoothed. As a result the scan lines in the video are never going to match up with the scan lines on the TV. A media extender like the MVP or HD100 are native NTSC output devices. Meaning when they're outputing 480i video via S-vid or composite it's just like it should be if you were watching it live. The video will line up properly with the TV scan lines.

Also, because the white and black levels on video are different than the computer's digital levels some video cards and MPEG decoders do not properly translate those levels between one another. What you end up getting is a really washed out picture. Because the media extenders are by their nature TV video devices there is no color space translation needed so video is displayed properly.

Thanks - but why then are DVD's and Divx / Xvid files that are output via the GeForce's S-Video-out so sharp, clean and accurate? To me, the problem lies somewhere in the Hauppauge / SageTV recording combination. Anything "recorded" via the Hauppauge is crap, but output of non-Hauppuage/Sage video material looks great.
Any thoughts?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

Thanks - but why then are DVD's and Divx / Xvid files that are output via the GeForce's S-Video-out so sharp, clean and accurate? To me, the problem lies somewhere in the Hauppauge / SageTV recording combination. Anything "recorded" via the Hauppauge is crap, but output of non-Hauppuage/Sage video material looks great.
Any thoughts?

That's why I mentioned the HD-PVR as it seems it has something to do with the Hauppuage 150 doing the recording...

Have you tried different setting such as overlay vs. VMR9 and different video codecs for example?

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

Thanks - but why then are DVD's and Divx / Xvid files that are output via the GeForce's S-Video-out so sharp, clean and accurate? To me, the problem lies somewhere in the Hauppauge / SageTV recording combination. Anything "recorded" via the Hauppauge is crap, but output of non-Hauppuage/Sage video material looks great.
Any thoughts?

What's you're recording quality set to? I personally have mine set to DVD Standard Quality.

And what input on your card are you using? I have come to the distinct conclusion that the TIB's (tuner in a box) used on most tuner cards are complete crap. The PVR150 I still have in my system is hooked via S-vid to my cable STB. The video quality is quite a bit better. Of course I still get the occasional artifacting in darker areas but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be. Plus there's no more video noise like there used to be with when the cards were hooked directly to the coax.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

Thanks - but why then are DVD's and Divx / Xvid files that are output via the GeForce's S-Video-out so sharp, clean and accurate? To me, the problem lies somewhere in the Hauppauge / SageTV recording combination. Anything "recorded" via the Hauppauge is crap, but output of non-Hauppuage/Sage video material looks great.
Any thoughts?

Oh, another thing about those divx/xvid files and particularly DVD's is that with the exception of some DVD's they are all progressive. Meaning they aren't interlaced. Even though the video on a DVD is interlaced to 29.97fps the MPEG decoder will pick up on this and reverse telecine the video to it's native progressive 24.976fps picture. This is probably the reason why those source seem so sharp compared to the straight interlaced video you're recording through your PVR150.

[mohanman]

I got so sick of all the tweaking it was driving me nuts! I spent hours upon hours trying to set up my home theater pc system to maximize everything. So much wasted time.. I gained weight, didn't have a life.. etc. All this time, all I needed was a couple of Tivos.. and done. Don't get me wrong, I still use sage for media streaming, not for TV though.

Mo

[Brent]

Originally Posted by mohanman

So much wasted time.. I gained weight, didn't have a life.. etc.

I thought those were symptoms of watching TV, not trying to get it to work



Seriously though, I do understand. HTPC's in general take a bit of work and research, but for me a little invested time gave me the power and flexibility to have a one-stop media center that can do TV (with great quality), music, movies and more all in one box and networked through the home so I can start watching in room one, stop and pick up in the same place in room 2. That sort of twisted desire to control everything drove me to HTPCs and keeps me around.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by mohanman

I got so sick of all the tweaking it was driving me nuts! I spent hours upon hours trying to set up my home theater pc system to maximize everything. So much wasted time.. I gained weight, didn't have a life.. etc. All this time, all I needed was a couple of Tivos.. and done. Don't get me wrong, I still use sage for media streaming, not for TV though.

Mo

That's the nice part about using media extenders instead of clients. There really is no tweaking. No messing with video card drivers, audio pass-thru, decoders, etc. It just works.

[tvmaster2]

[QUOTE=Taddeusz;285970]What's you're recording quality set to? I personally have mine set to DVD Standard Quality.

And what input on your card are you using? I have come to the distinct conclusion that the TIB's (tuner in a box) used on most tuner cards are complete crap. The PVR150 I still have in my system is hooked via S-vid to my cable STB. The video quality is quite a bit better. Of course I still get the occasional artifacting in darker areas but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be. Plus there's no more video noise like there used to be with when the cards were hooked directly to the coax.[/QUO


I output S-video from my satellite receiver to S-video in on the PVR-150. Then, it's S-video out of the GeForce 6200 to my Sony XBR's S-video in.
I tend to record at different rates, but have seen no real difference whether I use DVD standard or slightly lower ratio.

It would be great if I could transcode the interlaced to progressive, if that is what gives me such good results from the internal DVD player and Xvid files on Sage's hard drive.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

It would be great if I could transcode the interlaced to progressive, if that is what gives me such good results from the internal DVD player and Xvid files on Sage's hard drive.

Doubtful. What generally allows that are the field flags that tell the decoder whether a field or frame is interlaced or progressive. The smarter decoders can run the video through and be able to determine what is what if the flags are wrong. But I don't know if that would be possible with the PVR150 recorded video.

Honestly, the hugest thing I've found about recorded SD video is the color space problem. After using several different video cards and decoders trying to get things right I've discovered that most of the time they fail to convert color spaces at all. So the video ends up looking too bright where the blacks aren't black but a shade of dark gray. And because a lot of artifacting is present in darker areas you get to see a lot more of it if the color space isn't converted properly.

Of course, you also have to realize that in the case of most STB's now days you're taking a purely digital signal, turning into analog, and then converting back to digital. There is going to be some loss in quality there. It's also possible the encoder on the PVR150 is lower quality than the one you get a in a Tivo. But, IMHO, it works well enough. Since I started using my HD100 I really haven't noticed any color space issues. I just get nice sharp video.