Top 4 Advantages and Disadvantages of HTPCs

[Brent]

Hi Guys,
I'm looking for your opinions of the top 4 advantages and top 4 disadvantages of HTPCs vs. Cable Box and Tivos. I know all of you have opinions on this so let me hear them...

Here's mine for starters:
Advantages:

1. Record as much as you want
2. Total control over content - tv, music, movies and more
3. Expandable
4. No DRM (not necessarily true if you're a VMC person)

Disadvantages:

1. More difficult to set up
2. A bit more difficult to use
3. Expensive hobby
4. Lots of ongoing tweaking

[lobosrul]

Other Advantages:

No monthly DVR fee.
Networking.
Its cool... I suppose you have to be a nerd for that one.

And with this new Hauppauge HD-DVR device plus the STX-HD100, I'm thinking setup time and tweaking will be drastically reduced.

[pjpjpjpj]

Advantages:

1. With OTA (as I have), I now have no monthly fees for television service whatsoever. The upfront costs will be paid off in a year (and that’s just saving my previous costs, which weren’t even for premium channels or HD). My neighbors pay about $150/mo. for their cable programming and don’t even have HD. That’s $1800 per year – at that rate, you could buy one or two (or three small) new HDTVs per year….

2. Massive media access – not just recorded TV shows, but DVDs, MP3s, photos, videos, and online content, all from my TV.

3. The ability to access all of the above-mentioned media from any of my TVs on an extender… not just “one Tivo for one TV”.

4. Did I mention it’s free?

(honorable mention: unlimited recording space per your HDD capacity, webserver customization that is better than a Slingbox because it is web-based and doesn’t require software installation on each PC)

Disadvantages:

1.Buggy and/or fussy. I hate it when you fire it up to show a friend for the first time and it acts a bit froggy. You sorta have to regularly read this forum to keep everything running right.

2.You have to set it up yourself (no “cable guy”). Specifically, fishing network cable all over the house. YMMV, of course, but I had three separate 100’ cables that I ran “2ndflr->attic->2ndflr->1stflr->basement->1stflr” (don’t ask, it was necessary).

3.A bit more expensive up front (though this is offset, for us OTA’ers, by having no monthly costs). I can’t complain too much about this because I already had a spare PC I could use as my server and I made my OTA antennas for free with stuff laying around the house. It cost me two HDHomeruns, 2 HD Extenders, a bigger USB HDD, and some cables…. All in all, slightly more than a new Tivo Series 3, except mine works on several TVs (see advantage #3 above).

4. I really don’t have a fourth complaint. Well, how about “waiting for the HD Extenders to come in stock”???

[mistergq]

advantages
1) complete control over your content
2) multiple tuners (more than 2)
3) can record to a central server, and have media on various clients/extenders
4) remove commercials

disadvantages
1) more upfront cost to get started
2) have to wire ethernet cable throughout your whole house
3) set up can be a pain
4) have to teach others how to use it

[stanger89]

Woohoo! devil's advocate time

Originally Posted by Brent

Hi Guys,
I'm looking for your opinions of the top 4 advantages and top 4 disadvantages of HTPCs vs. Cable Box and Tivos. I know all of you have opinions on this so let me hear them...

Here's mine for starters:
Advantages:

1. Record as much as you want
2. Total control over content - tv, music, movies and more
3. Expandable
4. No DRM (not necessarily true if you're a VMC person)

1/3) FWIW, Dish lets you do this with their DVRs, you can connect external drives.

Disadvantages:

1. More difficult to set up
2. A bit more difficult to use
3. Expensive hobby
4. Lots of ongoing tweaking

2) Isn't an inherent "disadvantage" of an HTPC, in fact quite the opposite, it's a bit easier, cheaper at least to have highly integrated, idiot-proof control with an HTPC than with standalone components. You can have Crestron-like automation without the cost or difficulty. Any difficulty in use comes from lack of setup.

3) Not any more expensive than anything else really, in fact in many ways it's cheaper (there's just more options)

4) Honestly don't know where this comes from, if you treat an HTPC like a set top box, it will behave like one. The issue is most people who build HTPCs build them because they're more tweakable, and they confuse the tweakableness+lack of self control, with the "problem" that HTPC require more tweaking (once set up).

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Advantages:

1. With OTA (as I have), I now have no monthly fees for television service whatsoever. The upfront costs will be paid off in a year (and that’s just saving my previous costs, which weren’t even for premium channels or HD). My neighbors pay about $150/mo. for their cable programming and don’t even have HD. That’s $1800 per year – at that rate, you could buy one or two (or three small) new HDTVs per year….

2. Massive media access – not just recorded TV shows, but DVDs, MP3s, photos, videos, and online content, all from my TV.

3. The ability to access all of the above-mentioned media from any of my TVs on an extender… not just “one Tivo for one TV”.

4. Did I mention it’s free?

(honorable mention: unlimited recording space per your HDD capacity, webserver customization that is better than a Slingbox because it is web-based and doesn’t require software installation on each PC)

Disadvantages:

1.Buggy and/or fussy. I hate it when you fire it up to show a friend for the first time and it acts a bit froggy. You sorta have to regularly read this forum to keep everything running right.

2.You have to set it up yourself (no “cable guy”). Specifically, fishing network cable all over the house. YMMV, of course, but I had three separate 100’ cables that I ran “2ndflr->attic->2ndflr->1stflr->basement->1stflr” (don’t ask, it was necessary).

Frankly I consider that a plus, the "cable guy" doesn't care about your house, doesn't care if the install looks good, doesn't care, period. I avoid the "cable guy" if at all possible, I'd rather run all the cable myself and have it setup the way I want than to have the "cable guy" do it.

3.A bit more expensive up front (though this is offset, for us OTA’ers, by having no monthly costs). I can’t complain too much about this because I already had a spare PC I could use as my server and I made my OTA antennas for free with stuff laying around the house. It cost me two HDHomeruns, 2 HD Extenders, a bigger USB HDD, and some cables…. All in all, slightly more than a new Tivo Series 3, except mine works on several TVs (see advantage #3 above).

4. I really don’t have a fourth complaint. Well, how about “waiting for the HD Extenders to come in stock”???

Originally Posted by mistergq

advantages
1) complete control over your content
2) multiple tuners (more than 2)
3) can record to a central server, and have media on various clients/extenders
4) remove commercials

disadvantages
1) more upfront cost to get started
2) have to wire ethernet cable throughout your whole house

How is that different from anything else? Other than there really isn't anything else in the same price category that offers Ethernet integration.

3) set up can be a pain
4) have to teach others how to use it

Again, that (4) is not an inherent problem with HTPCs, if they're hard to use it's the fault of the buider. My HT system is not easy to use, but it's not the fault of the components I chose, it's my "fault" for not making it easy to use. Of course that's only because I'm the only one who operates it.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Woohoo! devil's advocate time

I can tell this will be fun

1/3) FWIW, Dish lets you do this with their DVRs, you can connect external drives.

you can add external drives with many others as well, but make DVDs from them, easily covert to iPod etc???

2) Isn't an inherent "disadvantage" of an HTPC, in fact quite the opposite, it's a bit easier, cheaper at least to have highly integrated, idiot-proof control with an HTPC than with standalone components. You can have Crestron-like automation without the cost or difficulty. Any difficulty in use comes from lack of setup.

Not in my experience. You're right that an HTPC can be very easy to use once someone has set up everything for the user, eliminated any unworking menu items, properly configured the codecs etc. But the Tivo or cable box is inherently easier if for no other reason than the fact there aren't as many features to learn or understand.

3) Not any more expensive than anything else really, in fact in many ways it's cheaper (there's just more options)

$5/month for cable box. Way more initial outlay for an HTPC. Or for a Tivo add the monthly subscription cost.

4) Honestly don't know where this comes from, if you treat an HTPC like a set top box, it will behave like one. The issue is most people who build HTPCs build them because they're more tweakable, and they confuse the tweakableness+lack of self control, with the "problem" that HTPC require more tweaking (once set up).

You obviously are not married It's never just perfect. Have a cable box and it doesn't work then it's the cable companies fault. Have an HTPC and it has a brainfart and it's your fault....

I appreciate the alternative point of view by the way - I'm hoping to use some of the feedback here for a coming soon blog post on HTPCs and I HOPE FOR & EXPECT some different point of views.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

I can tell this will be fun
you can add external drives with many others as well, but make DVDs from them, easily covert to iPod etc???

1/3 only addressed recording time really

Not in my experience. You're right that an HTPC can be very easy to use once someone has set up everything for the user, eliminated any unworking menu items, properly configured the codecs etc. But the Tivo or cable box is inherently easier if for no other reason than the fact there aren't as many features to learn or understand.

But that's all setup, not use. Take for example the comparision between SageClient and the HD100 Extender. SageClient takes a bit more to get up and running (choosing decoders, drivers, etc), but once that's done, they function identically.

What about using

$5/month for cable box. Way more initial outlay for an HTPC. Or for a Tivo add the monthly subscription cost.

Cable box I'll give you, but that's really the exception. HD Tivo is about $600 (including service), a Dish HD DVR is $400, DirecTV HD DVRs can be upwards of $600. Blu-ray players are $400+. Pick any one thing to replace, and it's really hard to justify an HTPC, but if you want anything more than just a single box, it starts making a lot of sense.

Want to be able to record/view TV (HD) on several TVs? Multiply the TVs by the cost of the DVR boxes and it's not cheap. Want a PVR and BD player...

You obviously are not married It's never just perfect. Have a cable box and it doesn't work then it's the cable companies fault. Have an HTPC and it has a brainfart and it's your fault....

Nope, not married and I know what you mean. But to give some perspective, (excluding times I've horked things up tweaking) I've seen my standalone devices/boxes crash/flake out as much as my HTPCs. My Dish sat box isn't perfect, the other night my Anthem SSP flaked out (like it was tuck in mute or something).

No, nothing's perfect, but what I'd say about HTPCs is that once set up, they behave like standalone set top boxes, if they're treaded so.

I appreciate the alternative point of view by the way - I'm hoping to use some of the feedback here for a coming soon blog post on HTPCs and I HOPE FOR & EXPECT some different point of views.

That was the purpose of my post

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by Brent

$5/month for cable box. Way more initial outlay for an HTPC. Or for a Tivo add the monthly subscription cost.

Maybe the box itself but I know my cable company charges another $11/month subscription fee for their DVR service. I'm still trying to understand what exactly you're paying for with that subscription fee.

Of course with the R5000 mod and now the HD-PVR a lot of us will have that extra $5/month too.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Brent

I can tell this will be fun
you can add external drives with many others as well, but make DVDs from them, easily covert to iPod etc???

Not in my experience. You're right that an HTPC can be very easy to use once someone has set up everything for the user, eliminated any unworking menu items, properly configured the codecs etc. But the Tivo or cable box is inherently easier if for no other reason than the fact there aren't as many features to learn or understand.

$5/month for cable box. Way more initial outlay for an HTPC. Or for a Tivo add the monthly subscription cost.

You obviously are not married It's never just perfect. Have a cable box and it doesn't work then it's the cable companies fault. Have an HTPC and it has a brainfart and it's your fault....

I appreciate the alternative point of view by the way - I'm hoping to use some of the feedback here for a coming soon blog post on HTPCs and I HOPE FOR & EXPECT some different point of views.

I'm married, and considering I occasionally get "no signal" from my cable company, my sage system works at least as well.

My wife has no complaints and my daughter at nearly 5 has seen pretty much commercial free children's programming.

She now knows how to pause and start shows and bring up the menu. Having been part of this group since 2003, I would consider Sage(and by extension HTPC) a success by any standard.

[doc]

Disadvantages:

1. Watching TV is a complete anti-climax compared to the fun of getting it to work

[kevine]

Advantage: Commercial skipping

[jominor]

Originally Posted by kevine

Advantage: Commercial skipping

Good call! That one alone is worth the price of admission.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by kevine

Advantage: Commercial skipping

Very true! Comskip is hard to live without once you get used to it being there.
btl.

[bialio]

Advantages

• Integration of Multiple TV sources - I have OTA, DishNetwork, and TWC Basic Cable all integrated in one EPG in one system. You can't do that with anything else.
• Channel Remapping - Having multiple sources of TV, it's nice to be able to clean up the guide and user experience by mapping the channels you get to wherever you want them. In our house, we've had the basic cable for 10+ years. We know those channels backwards and forwards. So as new sources come in I just map them to the channel we know - so rather than some weird 4 digit number for the Locals in HD, they are on their normal channel. Just in HD. Same for all the new HD content we get from Dish.
• Commercial Skipping - no doubt this is a huge benefit if you watch a lot of TV. It's gotten to where my wife complains if there isn't comskip data on the progress bar!

Disadvantages

• Computers are flakey - no matter how nicely you treat your machine, it's gonna flake out sometimes. STB's from the provider of choice are known to be flakey as well, but I'd say computers are a little more flakey. Plus, it's a well known fact that over time computers need to be re-imaged to get the MS Bloat factor down. I don't put any unnecessary software on my Sage PCs, but after a while they tend to bog down a little and a refresh fixes that.
• Initial setup is a chore - getting an HTPC working well is not a small task. Very much worth it, but not trivial.

btl.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by bialio

Disadvantages

• Computers are flakey - no matter how nicely you treat your machine, it's gonna flake out sometimes. STB's from the provider of choice are known to be flakey as well, but I'd say computers are a little more flakey. Plus, it's a well known fact that over time computers need to be re-imaged to get the MS Bloat factor down. I don't put any unnecessary software on my Sage PCs, but after a while they tend to bog down a little and a refresh fixes that.

I'd call that an urban legend, of course it's not helped by the fact that most people continually clutter their PCs with useless software. So if you mean the "User Bloat Factor", then I suppose I agree with you. As for the PC inherently needing to be "refreshed" I'll point you to my SageTV server with 6,280,777 seconds (that's 72 days, 16 hours, 39 minutes, 37 seconds) of uptime as of 12:00 this morning.

It's the same install of Windows I put on there, man I don't even remember when, probably been a couple years now.

[lobosrul]

I can attest computers can be flakey. The USB ports on my mobo just stopped working one night. Worked fine when I went to bed, next morning dead.

Bios flash, reinstall windows.... no dice. And I tested like 4 different devices. Still I generally get a weeks uptime on my sage server... which is also a general purpose computer, used for playback, encoding, and the occasional game. Not bad when compared to a Comcast SA box.

Also, I wouldn't call the "bloatware" thing an urban legend. Its unbelievable what crap PC manufacturer's load up on computers these days. Of course I haven't actually bought a PC for 10 years now, but I know from "fixing" friends computers (this usually involves uninstalling programs they're too lazy to, running spyware and anti-virus programs, installing firefox, and defraging). If however you only install everything you need for a stand-alone sage server you should be set for many many years.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'd call that an urban legend, of course it's not helped by the fact that most people continually clutter their PCs with useless software. So if you mean the "User Bloat Factor", then I suppose I agree with you. As for the PC inherently needing to be "refreshed" I'll point you to my SageTV server with 6,280,777 seconds (that's 72 days, 16 hours, 39 minutes, 37 seconds) of uptime as of 12:00 this morning.

It's the same install of Windows I put on there, man I don't even remember when, probably been a couple years now.

I'll second that. I installed Windows XP on my server back on late 04, 05 at the latest.

I've yet to reinstall it and it runs just as well as it did day one. The issue if not install software constantly.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

I can attest computers can be flakey. The USB ports on my mobo just stopped working one night. Worked fine when I went to bed, next morning dead.

My Anthem AVM-20 randomly decided to play everything soft the other night, for no reason... Does that mean SSPs are flaky? No.

Also, I wouldn't call the "bloatware" thing an urban legend. Its unbelievable what crap PC manufacturer's load up on computers these days.

I never said bloatware was an urban legend, that's one reason I don't buy PCs. I/we weren't talking about that, I was talking about the idea that PCs just "accumulate bloat" over time. On their own. The idea that you just have to eventually nuke-and-pave to clean them out just because of something inherent in computers.

There's a urban legend that PCs just get bloated over time and there's nothing you can do about it. Like it's like dust, that it just accumulates and you have to clean it out every once in a while. When in fact it's quite the contrary, the "bloat" that mysteriously accumulates, doesn't actually accumulate on it's own, it's placed there by the user.

Of course I haven't actually bought a PC for 10 years now, but I know from "fixing" friends computers (this usually involves uninstalling programs they're too lazy to, running spyware and anti-virus programs, installing firefox, and defraging).

But that's a totally different issue than what we're talking about here, it falls into the two categories of User-Induced bloat, and Factory Installed bloat, not some mysterious accumulation of bloat.

If however you only install everything you need for a stand-alone sage server you should be set for many many years.

It all comes back to user behavior. There is only one difference between every electronic device out there today, between "standalones" and "set top boxes" and "computers". And no, it's not the OS, or the "PC", it's the user. Set top boxes today, be it a cable box, DVD player, SSP, Receiver, whatever, they're all computers. More often than not they run basically the same operating systems we do (often Linux, or Windows Embeded). The only difference between a PC and a set top box, is the set top box, the user just uses, the PC, people fiddle with this and that, and they install this and that. And in the end they end up with a bogged down mess, and then blame the computer, like it's its fault. If they installed codec packs and random download apps on their set top boxes, they'd be just as flaky as PCs.

Everything can fail these days, and most devices just get more and more complicated. STBs fail, DVD Players fail, PCs fail, SSPs fail, their all computers and they've all got bugs, but PCs are the only ones who's failures are blamed on what they are.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Stanger's stuff about mystery programs on computers...

+1

[bialio]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I never said bloatware was an urban legend, that's one reason I don't buy PCs. I/we weren't talking about that, I was talking about the idea that PCs just "accumulate bloat" over time. On their own. The idea that you just have to eventually nuke-and-pave to clean them out just because of something inherent in computers.

There's a urban legend that PCs just get bloated over time and there's nothing you can do about it. Like it's like dust, that it just accumulates and you have to clean it out every once in a while. When in fact it's quite the contrary, the "bloat" that mysteriously accumulates, doesn't actually accumulate on it's own, it's placed there by the user.

User induced and factory induced bloat are of course a given. But I think OS induced bloat exists also. Use a normal Windows PC with the normal programs (Office Suite, Web Browser, Email, and related programs) - and over time it starts to slow down. I've seen this happen over and over again.

It could be argued that this is user bloat - but I don't consider it that. Not unless you consider that the first piece of user installed software is Windows

The reason our Sage Servers can get such tremendous up time is that they don't get the "user use" that a desktop PC normally does. My server is just as responsive now as it was when I installed it (about 1 year ago) - but I never use it for normal computer duties. And it has nothing but Sage and the programs Sage needs to run installed on it - Java, HDHomerun drivers, Hauppauge Drivers.

btl.