Comcast HD DVR -- Raising the Bar Out of Sage's Reach?

[roddym4]

I am fortunate enough to live in area (Montgomery County, MD) where Comcast is rolling out their new Mot. 6208 HD DVRs. These are single tuner devices that record either HD or SD content. Early reports from HDTVoice Beta users are generally good, though some bugs have required unit replacements.

As an HDTV owner, the obvious limitations (single tuner, no other media integration) are somewhat outweighed by the fact that you get true HD and SD PVR features instantly. That's a big deal if you own an HD set. Comcast will be rolling out dual tuner DVRs in June, and that point, I may be tempted to bail on Sage and get MediaMVP to handle my other media.

I'm a bonafide Sage user, even though it has a few warts and has let me down on a couple of occaisions. I'm willing to stick it out with Sage if (big if) there is a formal plan to integrate at least one HD card. I like what Sage does and how well it does it. However, knowing that I can spend $9.95 tomorrow and start recording HD is a big competitive advantage that Sage/others will have to reach. All the extra and worthwhile features (Intelligent recording, Studio, media integration) probably won't be enough to keep people with HD sets from jumping ship -- image quality will always be a significant delimiting factor.

It seems that every week there is more HD content out there, as well as more and more HD sets. Slowly, HD and HD recording will become the standard. It may not be there for everyone, but it is for me now, and I need a reason to stay.

[edmc]

Alas, SageTV (and the entire HTPC space) is at the mercy of the HDTV Tuner Card vendors who have been completely unreliable/unresponsive on the QAM issue. Obviously, it is possible to construct a tuner which is QAM-capable and works for US Cable (e.g. your Comcast provider). Several boxes are now available (and, as you point out, include DVR functionality) as are add-in cards for certain TVs (e.g. Mitsubishi). My conclusion - the market's not big enough to attract adequate investment/attention to solving the QAM issue for HTPC HDTV Tuner Cards :-(. For me, who doesn't rip music/video onto my HTPC anyway, I'm really challenged by this to justify staying with an HTPC at all.

[AJ Bertelson]

The market is big enough to for HDTV cards.

The stupid f'ing content providers don't want a napsterization of the TV industry. Cliff Watson said it best at the AVSforum.


"The only way we will see HDTV recorders is if microsoft wants them"

[edmc]

I'm sorry, AJ, but neither you nor I know the numbers. I hope/wish you are/were right. However, I base my assessment by looking at all the cards which came and went. As I understand it, those HiPix and AccessDTV efforts are community led - not done by the originators of the cards. And I base my assessment on the lack of adding sufficient memory (e.g. AccessDTV) to do QAM even though the demodulator chip supports it. And I base my dismal outlook on DViCo's complete lack of credibility on when/if they'll release a QAM-capable card.

The FCC has spoken. There is now no technical nor legal reason to not see QAM-capable HDTV Tuner cards for HTPCs. There is obviously/unfortunately another reason.

It's a race, really. If Set-top HD-DVRs take off before we get QAM in our HTPCs, I say "game over". Nothing Sage, BeyondTV, nor even Microsoft can do to prevent it. (MCE & DRM efforts @ uSoft notwithstanding) :-(

[stanger89]

I'm kind of with Cliff and edmc about QAM support, I'm kind of pessimistic about it.

However there seems to be at least some hope:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...&threadid=2920

I really hope we see CableCard compatible HD cards, that would be great.

[mikesm]

There are a few folks working on a next gen set of PCI cards that will have QAM and 8VSB support. After all, the HD card just tunes and demods the MPEG-2 stream from the RF.

The cablecard interface is a little more complicated than you would think. A good reference for showing how the POD (now called cablecard) sits in a set top can be found here. And you can see the functionality of the cablecard outlined here.

As you can see, it's not just a data-in/data-out processor, since the keying material needs to be fed to it... The good news is that ATI has build the interfaces to it in it's new theater chipset that does both HD and QAM decode. The bad news is that I doubt a license will ever be obtained for for a PC to be considered a trusted host....

A better approach might be to try grabbing the MPEG stream froma set-top's 1394 interface, though there are issues with this approach too.

Thanks,
Mike

[bdavis_colorado]

What is QAM? (I'm a noobie) Is it just for Cable? A type of modulation? I want to get a HDTV card soon or over the air HDTV recording - also worried a little bit about the broadcast flag thing I heard about that is mandated around July of 2005 or so.

Thanks!

[HookedOnTV]

QAM... personally I don't see this as the current roadblock. Many areas providers already encrypt all of the HD offerings and I don't think, correct me if I am wrong, there is anything from keeping all cable carriers from doing this at will.

The show stopper right now is the lack of an SDK from any of the manufactuers selling OTA cards today. Without this openess we're stuck, for the most part, to what they offer as software to go along with it. What none of them seem to get is that just because the card is going in a computer doesn't mean we want it to be used/controlled like a computer. We want this thing to be fully functional with a remote. Just like the STB's out there but with the ability for things to be customized or improved as provided by a pc.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by bdavis_colorado
What is QAM? (I'm a noobie) Is it just for Cable? A type of modulation? I want to get a HDTV card soon or over the air HDTV recording - also worried a little bit about the broadcast flag thing I heard about that is mandated around July of 2005 or so.

Thanks!

QAM is Quadrature Amplitude Modulation. Without getting into anything technical, it's a way of broadcasting/sending two channels in the bandwidth of one (it's kind of scary when classes you're taking are actually applicable to current technology). QAM is used on cable, over the air HDTV uses 8VSB modulation which all the current cards support.

The broadcast flag won't affect any of the cards you buy now, with the possible exception that a software update after the BF is enforced might have to impliment BF support, I've seen nothing definitive either way about this. It's only supposed to affect products manufactured/sold after July 05 (or whatever the date is). I know I am planning on getting an HDTV card before the BF takes effect to avoid having to deal with it.

[bdavis_colorado]

Thanks for the answer - I was beginning to wonder if getting a HDTV card now was a bad idea, but it sounds great for OTA broadcasts! I don't have cable TV, just cable modem, but it sure would be nice to have the QAM in a card for the majority of users, as there is only one channel in our area that broadcasts HD (and then, only at primetime).

Thanks!

[stanger89]

The problem with digital cable is that most channels, with the exception of those also available OTA, are/will be encrypted. The only way we'll see direct digital cable recording is if someone makes a card that's CableCard compliant. Our only other fallbacks are a card like we're suggesting in my link above, or some sort of DVHS emulator via Firewire (which there was a press release about SW for this a while ago but nothing has materialized).

[roddym4]

I received a Comcast DVR (Motorola 6208, single tuner) which records High Definition as well as SD programming. Bottom line, it works and works well. Like PVRs, you are always watching slightly "buffered" recordings of live TV. However, they look very, very good on my HDTV. It is recording HD.

That said, the UI is horribly basic, and reminds me of a DOS menu(yes, that bad). Setting up repeat recordings is easy enough, but there is no intelligence built in, nor can set recordings be based on "First Runs" versus reruns. It's VHS style recordings (daily, weekly, etc.) It does have a keep at most rule, however.

Although I'm testing, in the end, this will probably spell the end of HTPCs. There is loads of hardware in this device including S-Video, component, and DVI out, Firewire, RJ45 networking infrastructure, SPDIF out and all the video/audio requisites for solid HD/SD TV performance.

If I could dream, it would say on the outside of this box, "Comcast DVR with Sage Media Management Software." Dare I dream? Any real reason why Sage couldn't be modified to drive all of this hardware Motorola has put into this nice neat package?

[stanger89]

Originally posted by roddym4
I received a Comcast DVR (Motorola 6208, single tuner) which records High Definition as well as SD programming. Bottom line, it works and works well. Like PVRs, you are always watching slightly "buffered" recordings of live TV. However, they look very, very good on my HDTV. It is recording HD.

Cool

That said, the UI is horribly basic, and reminds me of a DOS menu(yes, that bad). Setting up repeat recordings is easy enough, but there is no intelligence built in, nor can set recordings be based on "First Runs" versus reruns. It's VHS style recordings (daily, weekly, etc.) It does have a keep at most rule, however.

Sounds like the Hauppauge software.

Although I'm testing, in the end, this will probably spell the end of HTPCs. There is loads of hardware in this device including S-Video, component, and DVI out, Firewire, RJ45 networking infrastructure, SPDIF out and all the video/audio requisites for solid HD/SD TV performance.

I serously doubt that, though it will make some dent in HTPC PVRs. HTPCs can do so much more than a PVR. The real competition for true, full-up HTPC are these:
http://www.kaleidescape.com/
http://www.onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Nettune
And the HD DirectTivo is the biggest threat/competition to PC PVRs.

Right now the Comcast DVR has only a small benefit to over PC PVRs, that's encrypted HD, everything else that box does can be done in an HTPC, SD, OTA HD, and it can be done better by an HTPC (judging by your description of the UI).

If I could dream, it would say on the outside of this box, "Comcast DVR with Sage Media Management Software." Dare I dream? Any real reason why Sage couldn't be modified to drive all of this hardware Motorola has put into this nice neat package?

That would be great, as long as they didn't cut too much of the functionality, most notably the client/server arangement. That and multiple tuners are the two things that set Sage apart from any other PVR solution available (MythTV excepted).

[edmc]

mikesm> There are a few folks working on a next gen set of PCI cards that will have QAM and 8VSB support.

Do tell - any hint when/who we will see this? DViCo has been giving consistently unreliable dates/indications. I'd love to see some other players compete here and provide the competitive environment which will only benefit us consumers...

stranger89> The problem with digital cable is that most channels, with the exception of those also available OTA, are/will be encrypted.

Ahem - once again PLEASE don't so easily discount the 60% of folks out there who RELY on Cable for their reception of so-called OTA stations. I, for one, would be very happy if my HDTV Tuner card could tune the same stations all my lucky non-neighbors out there able to actually receive HD OTA.

That said, unfortunately, many have reported that the OTA-locals are arriving encrypted from their cable spigit :-( Fortunately for me, Comcast in the SF Bay Area has commited to keeping these un-encrypted. Of course that doesn't mean they won't invoke the Broadcast Flag ("BF") on some content should Hollywood require it :-(

[mikesm]

Actually, the comcast 6XXX series HD DVR's may not only not spell the end of PC DVR's, but it may mean the start of them taking off. Look at this article.

It talk about using the 1394 output of a Comcast HD DVR and using it to record HD and SD MPEG-2 streams, including encrypted signals, even analog, on computers. Mostly Mac and Linux referenced there.

This is the best way of dealing with HD in my opinion if you can get it to work. Have the settop do the decryption and just pull of the MPEG stream via firewire.

Note that the satellite guys don't do this yet.

This is far better than recieving the HD OTA.

Thanks,
Mike

[AJ Bertelson]

There is also the USB2-HDTV that mr watson has and his last post was all giggles about it.

[Deadbolt]

Wow! This could be a big break...or a hole the cable companies plug in a week. We'll see!

deadbolt

[roddym4]

Just curious if Jeff/Dan could comment on the possibility of HD integration with Sage 2+?

Frankly, my preference would be to stick with Sage in an HD environment. However, I would appreciate knowing if it's really in the cards or just notional at this point. I do want to record HD, and right now, Comcast is my only option.

Trying to get an acceptable WAF with Sage on one input and Comcast DVR on another just makes no sense.

Without some kind of commitment from Sage, I'll probably replace it for an MVP and call it done -- not that I really want to do that, mind you.

[stanger89]

The best indication of support is the fact that the AccessDTV and Hipix have experimental support already. My understanding is that the ADTV records fine but Sage has trouble playing the files. I'd expect that HDTV playback will move up the list quickly once 2.0 is released.

[mikesm]

Why put in a a lot of effort into supporting old architecture cards like the AccessDTV and Hipix? Those designs are dead! Much better to focus on modern hardware like the Fusion series or the USB HDTV adapter discussed earlier.

Thanks,
Mike