How can I prevent my current live TVfrom being disrupted every time a new show starts

[mkanet]

While I'm watching a the same channel and the next show is about to start, there's a brief break/disruption in my TV viewing. I'm curious if there's an option to prevent this; and have it seamless.

[GKusnick]

As an experienced Sage user, you know that Sage records each show to a separate file, even in Live TV mode. So when a new show starts, it has to close one file and open another, causing a short hiccup in playback. That's an unavoidable consequence of the each-show-in-its-own-file recording model.

[mkanet]

Right, that goes without saying. I'm talking about watching a channel that I have not selected to record. In theory, there's no need to put a break between shows that arent being recorded; and just have a predefined buffer which cycles after its full.... for just liveTV. That's why there are some DVRs that you wont see a break between shows when just watching liveTV.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

As an experienced Sage user, you know that Sage records each show to a separate file, even in Live TV mode. So when a new show starts, it has to close one file and open another, causing a short hiccup in playback. That's an unavoidable consequence of the each-show-in-its-own-file recording model.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by mkanet

In theory, there's no need to put a break between shows that arent being recorded; and just have a predefined buffer which cycles after its full.... for just liveTV.

But they are being recorded. In Sage, there's no difference between recording and live TV. It always records the same way, one show per file. This is what lets you decide to keep a "live" show and mark it for recording halfway through. It's already being recorded as a separate show, so all that's needed is to set the Manual Record flag and thereby prevent it from being auto-deleted. That would not be possible with a circular buffer.

Also, in a multi-client system, it's possible for one client to mark a show for recording while another client accesses that same show "live" through the program guide. The best way to resolve such ambiguities and give a consistent user experience to everyone is to treat all shows the same, and not make a special case for live TV watching.

[mkanet]

Thanks, it makes sense after I thought it through. I'm curious how STB DVRs do this without gaps between shows.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

But they are being recorded. In Sage, there's no difference between recording and live TV. It always records the same way, one show per file. This is what lets you decide to keep a "live" show and mark it for recording halfway through. It's already being recorded as a separate show, so all that's needed is to set the Manual Record flag and thereby prevent it from being auto-deleted. That would not be possible with a circular buffer.

Also, in a multi-client system, it's possible for one client to mark a show for recording while another client accesses that same show "live" through the program guide. The best way to resolve such ambiguities and give a consistent user experience to everyone is to treat all shows the same, and not make a special case for live TV watching.

[GKusnick]

An STB DVR has a much simpler job since it's a closed-box, single-user system with a fixed UI. So a lot of ambiguities related to multiple clients and custom UIs just don't arise in the STB context.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

An STB DVR has a much simpler job since it's a closed-box, single-user system with a fixed UI. So a lot of ambiguities related to multiple clients and custom UIs just don't arise in the STB context.

I'm curious... Why do some users seem to do a lot of rationalization when an STB does something better than Sage? Particularly if it's anything to do with Live TV. I think the real answer to why they don't do it is that Sage hasn't put a priority on Live TV - they do a bunch of other things much better, and part of the cost of that has been prioritizing those features over live TV.

I suspect that's also holding them back from mainstream adoption to a certain degree. It's a great enthusiast platform right now, but it's not something I'd recommend for other family members because of the maintenance and the quirks (like how Live TV works).


And on a side note - In my Dish Network VIP-622, I have 2 simultaneous users (TV-1 and TV-2), and LiveTV works seamlessly on both. My wife and I could be watching the same show at different points in time on each TV (live, recorded, whatever), and there is no pause when it switches from one show to another. The 622 keeps a live "circular" buffer per tuner, so it always has something like that las hour or so of TV on that tuner buffered. Each client just keeps track of where there are on the buffer. Not all that complicated, but it does involve using circular buffers and copying out data if you start recording a showing after watching it.

Cheers,
Slipshod

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by Slipshod

The 622 keeps a live "circular" buffer per tuner, so it always has something like that las hour or so of TV on that tuner buffered.

That's exactly why I prefer SageTV's approach and don't mind the short hiccup - if I decide 80 minutes into a movie that I want to keep it, I can in SageTV - with a circular buffered PVR I'm screwed...

Dirk

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by flachbar

That's exactly why I prefer SageTV's approach and don't mind the short hiccup - if I decide 80 minutes into a movie that I want to keep it, I can in SageTV - with a circular buffered PVR I'm screwed...

Dirk

But what if you could control the size of the buffer, or whether or not it is used at all?

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Slipshod

I'm curious... Why do some users seem to do a lot of rationalization when an STB does something better than Sage? Particularly if it's anything to do with Live TV. I think the real answer to why they don't do it is that Sage hasn't put a priority on Live TV - they do a bunch of other things much better, and part of the cost of that has been prioritizing those features over live TV.

Not really looking to get into an argument over it, but I don't see that your way of looking at it is all that different from my way of looking at it. Sage does things that (most) STBs don't do, so their design choices reflect that difference. That's an observation, not a rationalization.

[camus]

Originally Posted by Slipshod

But what if you could control the size of the buffer, or whether or not it is used at all?

Well there has to be a buffer, however small, there is going to be one unless someone develops a card that has pass through and Sage could control that, but that of course would not work with a client, you have a buffer with a client. Also, no buffer, no pause, no rewind.


As far as controlling the size of the buffer, how would you know what size you want it to be? I really like the per show design as is. Have to leave before it ends? It is recorded. Walk in half through a show the wife is watching? Beginning is recorded. But that is just me and I rarely watch live tv beyond sports anyway (another benefit is sports, 4 hr overtime upset? to the archive!).

Really though, whenever I wonder why sage handles things a certain way, there is usually a reason.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Not really looking to get into an argument over it, but I don't see that your way of looking at it is all that different from my way of looking at it. Sage does things that (most) STBs don't do, so their design choices reflect that difference. That's an observation, not a rationalization.

In another thread I saw people drag out the "It's a PVR, not a DVR" statement (which drives me nuts), and talk about how that means it's different and then follow up with something like "you'll get used it and stop watching live TV anyway".

If I had a point (and it's quite possible I don't), I guess it would be that people who don't like the live TV behavior (and would like to see it change) should talk to Sage about it instead of just accepting whatever they are told on the forums. Without any feedback, it won't change.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by camus

Well there has to be a buffer, however small, there is going to be one unless someone develops a card that has pass through and Sage could control that, but that of course would not work with a client, you have a buffer with a client. Also, no buffer, no pause, no rewind.

I wasn't clear enough... I was talking about a circular buffer, so you wouldn't have the "skip" whenever a show changes in live TV. The earlier post said that would cause a problem if the show was longer than the circular buffer, so I asked what if you could control the size of the circular buffer...

[ehlfg]

I'm using SageTV with an R5000-HD. That generally works fine, but, when watching Live TV, there's a pause of around five to ten seconds at the end of a scheduled show. I suspect that it is switching the station (to the same station), which on the R5000-HD takes a while.

Is there any way to avoid that or reduce the delay? I'm just watching Live TV, not trying to save the show, so I don't care if the recording spans shows.

It's not a huge problem, but it interferes with sporting events that go overtime and I also miss the last few seconds of some shows.

* merged *

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by ehlfg

I suspect that it is switching the station (to the same station), which on the R5000-HD takes a while.
...
I'm just watching Live TV, not trying to save the show, so I don't care if the recording spans shows.

The pause is the process of changing from recording to/playing from the file for one show and switching to a new file for the new show. There is no way around that, since SageTV records each show to its own file rather than using a circular buffer.

See above for the last set of explanations & debates.

It's not a huge problem, but it interferes with sporting events that go overtime and I also miss the last few seconds of some shows.

I suggest adding padding to sports & your Favs -- you can still watch the sports live, but the recording will continue with the same file.

- Andy

[GKusnick]

You could try setting mmc/always_tune_channel=false in your Sage.properties. There will still be a small hiccup as it changes files, but it might help with the 10-second R5000 tuning delay.

[matt91]

Originally Posted by ehlfg

It's not a huge problem, but it interferes with sporting events that go overtime and I also miss the last few seconds of some shows.

This doesn't address your original question, but you could also try out the SRE plugin (Sage Recording Extender). It'll watch espn.com for a (major) sporting event that runs into OT, and will automatically extend your recording.

Worked for me the time or two I used it.

Matt

[ehlfg]

Dang, I missed the prior thread. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

You could try setting mmc/always_tune_channel=false in your Sage.properties. There will still be a small hiccup as it changes files, but it might help with the 10-second R5000 tuning delay.

Thanks for the suggestion. That's already set but doesn't seem to make a difference. The R5000-HD acts as a network encoder, so it's in control of creating the recordings. Sage just tells it to record a new show, and it does whatever is necessary to stop the old recording and start a new one.

[ehlfg]

Originally Posted by Opus4

I suggest adding padding to sports & your Favs -- you can still watch the sports live, but the recording will continue with the same file.

- Andy

Thanks, that's what I'll do.

[ehlfg]

Originally Posted by matt91

This doesn't address your original question, but you could also try out the SRE plugin (Sage Recording Extender). It'll watch espn.com for a (major) sporting event that runs into OT, and will automatically extend your recording.

Worked for me the time or two I used it.

Matt

Interesting, I had no idea that existed. I'll give that a try. Thanks!