Newbie Question(s) - Starting Sage in Live TV Mode and etc..

[js3862]

Ok, complete newb to Sage but I haven't been able to find direct answers to the following questions:

1. Is there an easy way (or any way) to get Sage to startup in live tv mode?

2. To add further to question 1, besides for simply starting up in live tv mode would there also be a way to startup in live mode and tuned to the last channel watched?

3. We currently have a DVR via Comcast and have the ability to actively swap between tuners to watch, pause, and record separate shows. I haven't done much reading in the manual yet but, I don't see any easily accessible way of doing this via the menu system. Is this sort of thing possible? Also, I have the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 so I do have dual independant tuners.

Any insight you all can provide will be most appreciated. Thanks!!

[steven017]

Hey js3862,

Well, I'll take a shot at answering some of your questions.

1. Easy way, I'm not so sure. Is pressing one button on a remote to difficult? Your Hauppauge remote has a Live TV button, right? Aside from that, I imagine it might be possible to figure a way to trigger Live TV mode when SageTV opens up, maybe using EventGhost or Girder. Someone else might have some easier/better ideas.

2. That's how SageTV works. Tuning into LiveTV automatically returns to the last channel watched.

3. Again, I'm not too sure, but recording can easily be accomplished from the program guide. Flipping between different tuners, I'm not too sure about. Hopefully someone with more experience will pipe in about that.

Personally, I can't even imagine setting SageTV to start in Live TV mode. Since installing it, I don't even think I've watched any live TV. It's been life changing in a strange sort of way.

Best of luck,

Steve

[matt91]

Originally Posted by js3862

3. We currently have a DVR via Comcast and have the ability to actively swap between tuners to watch, pause, and record separate shows. I haven't done much reading in the manual yet but, I don't see any easily accessible way of doing this via the menu system. Is this sort of thing possible? Also, I have the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 so I do have dual independant tuners.

You have two tuners, so you can have two shows recorded concurrently. If you wish to flip between these two shows while they are being recorded, sage doesn't care. You could also flip between those two shows being recorded and any number of other already recorded shows.

But, like Steve said, you might find that you don't watch live TV much anymore.

[js3862]

Originally Posted by matt91

You have two tuners, so you can have two shows recorded concurrently. If you wish to flip between these two shows while they are being recorded, sage doesn't care. You could also flip between those two shows being recorded and any number of other already recorded shows.

But, like Steve said, you might find that you don't watch live TV much anymore.

Ok, well maybe this is a concept issue for me then as I'm still very new to this product (and PVRs in general) and just not understanding, in the interface, how you record a show or pause it and switch to the other tuner. Is it that it's transparent and I'm just not 'seeing' the switch? The way the DVR hardware we have handles this is very straight forward:

1. You tune the show you want to watch and hit the pause or record button;

2. you press the "swap" button and you are on the other tuner. Once there you can do anything you want without affecting the status of the first tuner.

If you were to try to tune away from an active recording you get a popup saying basically, 'Hey, you're recording here! Do you want to swap to the other tuner and watch the show there, cancel this recording or forget it?' That's paraphrased but essentially the message.

I have noticed that I can switch back and forth between channels in Sage and the channel has continued to record but, I can't; pause, switch channels and then switch back and have the pause retained on the first channel.

This has been a pretty big convenience for me because it allows me to, for example, pause the kid's show while I catch up on news and then switch back and wow wow wubsie is right where it was when they left off. It's cached (e.g. recorded) but they don't care and they're none the wiser. For my wife, using this feature is the thing that makes her television watching life complete.

Yes, we could record things and watch them independently and we probably will record more shows but, we have had a DVR for over a year and we still find ourselves watching some live or close to live television. This is especially true for news, fox, cnn and the like.

Thanks again!

[Opus4]

If you are just watching live TV, then changing channels will change it using the current tuner, provided the channel is available on that tuner, of course.

If you want to be able to jump between shows, then you would need to use the Record command to make it a manual recording, then select the other show you want to watch & also make it a manual recording. (Or they can be 2 Favorites.) After that, you can use the Previous Channel command to switch between them. However, if you use the Channel Up/Down commands, it will try to change the channel on your current tuner --- it should ask for confirmation if the current channel is a manual recording.

BTW: the Previous Channel command works for any media playback, not just live TV or even TV recordings. You can start playing 1 file/recording, start playing another file/recording, then use PC to return from one to the other.

- Andy

[js3862]

Originally Posted by steven017

Hey js3862,

Well, I'll take a shot at answering some of your questions.

1. Easy way, I'm not so sure. Is pressing one button on a remote to difficult? Your Hauppauge remote has a Live TV button, right? Aside from that, I imagine it might be possible to figure a way to trigger Live TV mode when SageTV opens up, maybe using EventGhost or Girder. Someone else might have some easier/better ideas.

I don't have the remote yet. I purchased the 500 without a remote and another tuner that has a firefly remote with it. The 500 I was able to get locally without the remote and the other card is in transit.

However, the point in asking about starting in live television is to see if I can make this as transparent as possible with respect to our current and general television watching experiences. All of the cable or television boxes that I or my wife have seen don't make you select whether you want to watch television or not. You turned on the television so, it's a pretty good bet you are wanting to watch TV.

Yes, I realize you can look at pictures and play music or video files but, my wife and my seven year old aren't really interested in pressing any buttons past POWER to get to the moving picture portion of TV. They both use recorded shows, the channel guide and on demand programming but I don't see the point in making them choose to watch live television when they turn on the TV. If nothing else it is a familiarity factor.

2. That's how SageTV works. Tuning into LiveTV automatically returns to the last channel watched.

I noticed this after posting the question and exiting out of, entering into the app a few more times. Thanks for pointing it out though.

Personally, I can't even imagine setting SageTV to start in Live TV mode. Since installing it, I don't even think I've watched any live TV. It's been life changing in a strange sort of way.

I understand what you mean about life changing I noticed the same thing when we got our hardware DVR, it definitely takes the urgency out of having to get to the TV to watch show X and removes the stress of "what the heck did they just say" or "be quiet, I can't hear the show".

Thanks!

[js3862]

Originally Posted by Opus4

If you are just watching live TV, then changing channels will change it using the current tuner, provided the channel is available on that tuner, of course.

If you want to be able to jump between shows, then you would need to use the Record command to make it a manual recording, then select the other show you want to watch & also make it a manual recording. (Or they can be 2 Favorites.) After that, you can use the Previous Channel command to switch between them. However, if you use the Channel Up/Down commands, it will try to change the channel on your current tuner --- it should ask for confirmation if the current channel is a manual recording.

BTW: the Previous Channel command works for any media playback, not just live TV or even TV recordings. You can start playing 1 file/recording, start playing another file/recording, then use PC to return from one to the other.

- Andy

So, without actually recording the show as if you were going to keep it, you can't manually switch tuners?

Is there no way to force using the other tuner and have two channels active?

Scenario being that there is a show on that you are watching that you don't want to keep but you want to see it and you want to check the news, weather, just screw around and change to a different channel... but, you don't want to lose what has been cached or what will be cached on the first tuner. So, that way when you come back to the original show, if you have returned after a commercial break has ended or you just want to review what you have already seen, you can rewind and do whatever you could if you were sitting there watching the whole time.

Perhaps this is just my being used to how our Comcast box works but, it doesn't seem like using the tuners independently should be a difficult task.

Thanks for your insight!

[DaveWC]

Originally Posted by js3862

So, without actually recording the show as if you were going to keep it, you can't manually switch tuners?

Keep in mind your computer is recording the show you're watching whether you hit record or not. So all you need to do, to hold your place in that show, is hit record and cancel later on.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by js3862

You turned on the television so, it's a pretty good bet you are wanting to watch TV.

But not necessarily whatever random program happens to be on. The best bet (at least in my house) is that I want to go to the list of recorded programs and choose for myself what to watch. Like others, I almost never use Live TV mode.

That said, it shouldn't be too difficult to create a batch file that launches Sage, and then, after a suitable delay, sends it a Live TV command. See Appendix D of the manual for info on sending commands to Sage from the command line, and Chapter 5 for a list of commands you can send. (Yes, this will require actually reading the manual.)

It would also be fairly simple (for those with the necessary programming skills) to create a customization that automatically jumps to Live TV when the program is first loaded. This is probably a three-line addition to the standard STV. The fact that nobody has done it yet probably says something about how little Live TV gets watched by experienced users.

On the tuner-swapping business: you'll have better luck understanding how Sage works if you stop worrying about individual tuners and think about tasks instead. Recording a program is a task; so is watching live TV. Sage assigns tuners to tasks dynamically as needed, so you the user never have direct control over a tuner. Just tell Sage what you want to do and it will do it if a tuner is available. If you want to record two programs, mark them both for recording in the guide. If you want to mark a program for recording and then go channel surfing, just do it, and let Sage worry about the tuners.

If your overriding goal is to keep the same user experience and not rock the boat, then switching to Sage may not be the best strategy. On the other hand if you're looking to improve your DVR experience, then Sage is a good choice, but you have to be prepared for the fact that some things will just work differently than what you're used to. Although the Sage UI is highly customizable, you're going to find that some of the concepts from your old DVR (like manually swapping tuners) just don't apply in the Sage world. New ways of thinking will be required if you want to get the most out of Sage.

[js3862]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

That said, it shouldn't be too difficult to create a batch file that launches Sage, and then, after a suitable delay, sends it a Live TV command. See Appendix D of the manual for info on sending commands to Sage from the command line, and Chapter 5 for a list of commands you can send. (Yes, this will require actually reading the manual.)

I didn't say I hadn't read the manual at all, just that I hadn't read a lot of it yet. I already found "-event 15" it's just a bit clunky. I'm not, in general, one of these "but product X does Y" type of people but this is a feature that is available in at least one other package I have been evaluating and for the less than experienced it is sort of a nice feature. This was the reason I was asking and because having the TV come on when you turn on your set isn't something I would consider to be an abstract request.

It would also be fairly simple (for those with the necessary programming skills) to create a customization that automatically jumps to Live TV when the program is first loaded. This is probably a three-line addition to the standard STV. The fact that nobody has done it yet probably says something about how little Live TV gets watched by experienced users.

Or that it's too difficult to do, or not something the community feels like developing. Maybe you're right and it's not an issue for anyone else but, since it is a feature in other apps I would have to imagine someone else wanted it. Point being, I have seen it asked a couple of times in my searching the forums for the answer and invariably the question is either poopoo'd or ignored. I appreciate that experienced users may find it less than attractive to watch good old legacy live television or to have it start up automatically but, I'm really just looking for what options are available.

If your overriding goal is to keep the same user experience and not rock the boat, then switching to Sage may not be the best strategy. On the other hand if you're looking to improve your DVR experience, then Sage is a good choice, but you have to be prepared for the fact that some things will just work differently than what you're used to. Although the Sage UI is highly customizable, you're going to find that some of the concepts from your old DVR (like manually swapping tuners) just don't apply in the Sage world. New ways of thinking will be required if you want to get the most out of Sage.

Well it's sort of both. I and the wife realize that there will be changes in the way things work and yes we want a better experience which is why we're looking at Sage and other packages to start with. It's precisely the fact that Sage is so customizable that I decided to ask about the tuner control and the live tv functions. The fact that I am not overly familiar with the product is why I was asking for clarification and these were two of the somewhat sticky points with the wife as well. If the tuner issue is as simple as just starting a recording and then canceling the recording that isn't horrible, cludgy yes, horrible no. If I could find a way to start live tv programatically like product X that would be perfect but since I'm asking here about it obviously product X isn't perfect either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[GKusnick]

Coming at this from a different angle, one thing I'm not clear on is the connection between starting the Sage software in Live TV mode and powering your TV on and off. One typical usage of Sage is to leave it running 24/7, in which case it scarcely matters what it does on startup. What you'll see when you power on the TV is whatever screen you were looking at when you powered it off.

Another usage scenario is to configure the recording engine to run in the background as a service, start the Sage UI separately when you want to watch TV, and close the UI when you're done. Here it might make sense to want to start in Live TV mode, but this scenario isn't very much like legacy TV, since it requires interacting with the Window desktop in order to start the Sage app each time.

Another scenario involves the use of a Media Extender to connect Sage to your TV. In this case you would typically power on the TV, then pick up the Extender remote and push a button to wake up the Extender. Having it go directly into Live TV mode would be possible with a customization, but since you're already up to two button clicks on two different remotes, saving one more click doesn't seem that compelling (to me at least).

Other scenarios are possible. Maybe you could give us some background on how you plan to connect Sage to your TV and what your expected usage scenario would be. That might help us give better advice on how to achieve what you want.

It may turn out that the simplest solution is to get a programmable remote that can send out multiple commands with one button click, so you can turn on your TV, wake up your Extender, and go directly into Live TV mode all with one click, and without any customization of Sage itself.

[stanger89]

I'm sure I'm going to repeat some of what has already been posted, but I guess I feel like typing my dissertation on the PVR...

Originally Posted by js3862

Ok, well maybe this is a concept issue for me then as I'm still very new to this product (and PVRs in general) and just not understanding, in the interface, how you record a show or pause it and switch to the other tuner. Is it that it's transparent and I'm just not 'seeing' the switch? The way the DVR hardware we have handles this is very straight forward:

Yes, I think it's a concept issue, and it's not an uncommon one, the issue is that you're coming from a DVR (Digital Video Recorder), which is essentially a TV tuner with the capability of recording shows digitally, to a PVR (Personal Video Recorder), which is a system that manages the recording of selected shows based on criteria specified for the user.

A DVR is basically a digital replacement for a VCR, while a PVR is really something entirely different, with entirely different use cases and operational concepts. With a DVR, essentially you watch TV your TV stations like you normally do and have the capability to record shows while you're gone, as well as pause TV (timeshift).

With a PVR, you really never watch TV, you watch shows, you watch the shows you like. You tell the PVR what shows you like, and it goes out and finds them. When you access your PVR, you don't tune to a channel to watch TV, you don't surf for something good to watch, you choose something you wanted to watch from the collection of shows the PVR recorded for you. Basically a PVR is a personal, on-demand video system that pulls it's content from your TV service provider.

Further with a PVR, you don't worry about tuners, tuners are completely abstracted from the user, you just tell it what you like, and it manages the tuners behind the scenes.

1. You tune the show you want to watch and hit the pause or record button;

concept - With a PVR you never have to tune a show you want to watch, because all the shows you like are automatically recorded for you, you just pick them from the list.

As for your question, if you hit pause, and change the channel, that's telling Sage you didn't want to watch it (which you didn't because you're watching something else) so it will stop the recording and start a new one. If you hit record, Sage will record it, and start using another tuner for your "surfing".

2. you press the "swap" button and you are on the other tuner. Once there you can do anything you want without affecting the status of the first tuner.

concept - Again, with a PVR the user never deals directly with tuners, just shows. You're not managing the tuners you're just telling the PVR what to show you and it figures out how to do it behind the scenes.

As to the question, if you've pressed record on the first show, start a second one and hit recall (I can't remember the Sage command) it will go back to the previously viewed show. Again, you're dealing with shows, not tuners or channels, so the back/recall function in Sage will swap you between recently viewed shows.

If you were to try to tune away from an active recording you get a popup saying basically, 'Hey, you're recording here! Do you want to swap to the other tuner and watch the show there, cancel this recording or forget it?' That's paraphrased but essentially the message.

Sage does exactly this if you try to watch something and Sage can't accomplish it for you, ie if it's recording things on all the tuners and you try to watch something new that's currently airing, it will pop up an error, asking you if you want to cancel or stop one of the other recordings.

I have noticed that I can switch back and forth between channels in Sage and the channel has continued to record but, I can't; pause, switch channels and then switch back and have the pause retained on the first channel.

That's because by changing channels, you've told Sage you're done watching that show, so it stops recording it and starts the next. If you want Sage to continue recording it, you need to tell it to do so.

I suppose now it's time to point out that Sage is unique in how it handles live programming. Most programs/DVRs/PVRs have separate "modes" for live TV vs recordings, they use a circular buffer for live TV, and that buffer is continuously being recorded. SageTV doesn't treat live TV special, in Sage live TV is just a recording that's currently airing. In Sage, everything is show based, everything you do from the UI is show based. By selecting a show from the program guide, you're telling Sage you want to watch it, and the backend figures out that it needs to start a new recording to accommodate that request.

This has been a pretty big convenience for me because it allows me to, for example, pause the kid's show while I catch up on news and then switch back and wow wow wubsie is right where it was when they left off. It's cached (e.g. recorded) but they don't care and they're none the wiser. For my wife, using this feature is the thing that makes her television watching life complete.

That's really the big concept issue, you're still trying to "watch TV", a PVR makes that operational concept obsolete. With a PVR you just watch the shows you want to watch. You don't worry about when they're on, when they air, what channel, you just tell the PVR what you like, and it handles the rest.

So, you'd set up "wow wow wubsie" as a Favorite, you'd set up the news as a favorite, and at one point you let the kids watch "wow wow wubsie", and some other point you can watch the news. Do the same for your wife's favorite shows and she can watch all her shows whenever she wants. No managing channels, tuners, swapping, just watch what you want, when you want.

Yes, we could record things and watch them independently and we probably will record more shows but, we have had a DVR for over a year and we still find ourselves watching some live or close to live television. This is especially true for news, fox, cnn and the like.

And there's no reason you can't do that, in fact, I wouldn't consider setting the news as a favorite (it was just an example above). But I think a lot of your questions, or many of your viewing habits are perhaps a result of working around limitations of your old DVR.

I didn't say I hadn't read the manual at all, just that I hadn't read a lot of it yet. I already found "-event 15" it's just a bit clunky. I'm not, in general, one of these "but product X does Y" type of people but this is a feature that is available in at least one other package I have been evaluating and for the less than experienced it is sort of a nice feature. This was the reason I was asking and because having the TV come on when you turn on your set isn't something I would consider to be an abstract request.

Again, I think it comes back to operational concepts, for example I'm pretty sure a standalone Tivo doesn't start up in live TV mode (been a long time since I used one). Your cable DVR would, but that's because it's a cable tuner with recording functionality, not a PVR.

And for the record, I don't think any of us are trying to say you're wrong, quite the contrary, I think many here have found (and apologies in advance for the cliche), but SageTV has truly "changed the way we watch TV". When you use a really good PVR, it really does change how you think about TV, and for the better IMO. There are lots of things I watch, which I have no idea when they air, nor do I care.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stanger89

...I'm pretty sure a standalone Tivo doesn't start up in live TV mode...

It depends on which button you push. There's no On button on the Tivo remote, but you can wake it up with either the Guide, Live TV, or Tivo (Main Menu) button.

On the other hand, if you turn off the TV power without putting the Tivo into standy mode (which annoyingly is about three levels deep in the menu tree), it will time out after a few minutes and revert to Live TV mode, so that's what you'll see when you power the TV back on. Presumably the menu timeout is to avoid screen burn-in, but I still consider it more of a bug than a feature that it won't stay put on the main menu with the TV powered off.

[steven017]

Wow, stanger89. I thought that was a great post, and I think you're right on the money with the way you explained the PVR concept. I hadn't really put too much thought into it, but your explanation seems to really sum up how Sage works.

Thanks for the great post.

Steve

[js3862]

Yes I agree. Thanks Greg, Stranger and the rest who chimed in. This is all very good information and I think, having read your posts, that I'm beginning to better grasp the PVR vs DVR issue.

Besides for being used to the cable company's DVR I think part of my problem is that I have been very focused on the hardware aspect of getting the right mix of tuners and getting them working. I'm going to have to rethink some of what I was hoping to accomplish. I may have to do some things a bit differently but, differently may just turn out to be better.

As I'm going along learning more about the software I'm getting a bit more excited about the whole thing. I saw some screen shots of customization that people are doing with Sage and was very impressed. Especially with the new feature that is being added to allow the animated menus within the custom themes.

While I know I am still looking at this from a newby perspective, I am very hopeful that this can be our DVR replacement. With all the capabilities the application seems to have I think I would pretty hard pressed to not find a good chunk of things to like. I just wish the evaluation period was a bit longer. That's nothing against Sage though, I always wish evaluation periods were longer.

Thanks Again!

[js3862]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Coming at this from a different angle, one thing I'm not clear on is the connection between starting the Sage software in Live TV mode and powering your TV on and off. One typical usage of Sage is to leave it running 24/7, in which case it scarcely matters what it does on startup. What you'll see when you power on the TV is whatever screen you were looking at when you powered it off.

My idea here was to use a programmable remote to kick off Sage and then turn on the television. The television has about a ten second (seems like it anyway) startup delay and would give Sage enough time to get at least part of the way started before it was ready for a picture. Then Sage starting in live mode would be just like turning on the television normally using the cable box.

Another usage scenario is to configure the recording engine to run in the background as a service...

This is actually something I would think I would incorporate in the system as a whole. I would still want to be able to record shows in the background even if I am turning of the TV and UI. The idea being (initially this is what I'm thinking) to run an s-video cable and composite sound to an RF modulator and change the signal over to coax. Run the coax and an IR blaster with an extension to the TV. The remote being an RF instead of IR would be able to control the application and kick on the television without having to be in line of sight of the pc. The user would never need to interact with the OS and if there were some cross over time where they could see a desktop it would be the secondary desktop related to the s-video out on the video card anyway which could have a custom background that said something or had a graphic like a Sage logo or something on it.

Another scenario involves the use of a Media Extender to connect Sage to your TV...

I have begun toying with the idea of extenders as it would definitely be convenient to run a single network cable or go wireless. If I went with an extender I would probably end up looking at using a programmable IR remote that could power on both devices.

It may turn out that the simplest solution is to get a programmable remote that can send out multiple commands with one button click...

I think you may be right on the mark with this. But, based on your and other posts I'm going to try to get a bit more familiar with the PVR concepts before I get too heavily invested in any one direction. It may turn out that I fall in line with the "why turn on live television" camp after becoming a bit more familiar with things. In the meantime I'll have to check out more closely the capabilities of the remotes I have (Hauppauge IR and Firefly RF) and if they can't achieve what I want I'll then have to start looking for the wonder remote.

Thanks again for your help and if you have any more suggestions/comments please feel free to let me have them!

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by js3862

I just wish the evaluation period was a bit longer. That's nothing against Sage though, I always wish evaluation periods were longer.

Thanks Again!

Just to let you know, the trial period should now be 21 days, even though the website hasn't been updated to reflect that in all locations. Some pages say 21 days and others still mention the 15-day trial.

SageTV V6.3.2 Beta 11/21/2007

Windows Updates
3. Changed trial period to be 21 days

[GKusnick]

Just to throw in a few real-world examples, my own use of Sage falls into various scenarios.

1. I run the recording engine as a service on a PC in my AV rack. I also run a UI on this machine as a separate process. This is the one that drives the big plasma screen in my living room. I leave the UI running 24/7 and just power the screen on and off for watching. When not in use I leave Sage on the Main Menu so that's the first thing I see when I power on.

2. I have a MediaMVP (aka SD extender) connected to a small SDTV in the den. I put the MVP to sleep when not in use, and when I wake it up, the Main Menu is what I see. I don't have a universal remote for this; I just keep both remotes (TV and MVP) ready to hand while watching.

3. I have SageTVClient installed on the desktop PC in my home office. When I feel like watching TV in this room (which happens fairly often), I fire up the client UI and then shut it down again when done. (I also do a fair amount of SageTV Studio work on this machine.)

4. I have Placeshifter on my laptop, mostly for remote administration when I'm away from home, but I do occasionally use it for watching as well. Usage pattern is similar to SageTVClient.

When sitting at the desk, I don't mind (too much) the 15 or 20 seconds it takes to bring up the SageTVClient UI, since I can multitask by trolling the forums or something. But when I sit down in the living room or den, I want instant gratification, so the MVP and the always-on UI are a better fit there. You may find yourself in a similar boat, where waiting for the UI to load every time you turn on the TV begins to seem onerous.