HD Component capture with H.264 Encode

[Motofreak75]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You're going to have a hard time with an E4300 and a 9800 pro. My Athlon X2 4200 (2.2GHz, dual-core) can barely handle 9-10Mbps 1080p H.264.

My big question is how are they going to handle bitrate vs resolution. I hope that it can handle recording in native output (1080i for 1080i, 480i for 480i, etc). Hopefully it can do that, and you can set bitrate per resolution or something.

my X2 3800 handles 1080P h.264 conect just fine and under 30% cpu usage.

Just add a ati2600XT PCI-E into the mix and it will play it. Unless I try using a video decoder that doesnt support HW accel. them the cpu pukes on itself

[mikejaner]

I hope that it can handle recording in native output (1080i for 1080i, 480i for 480i, etc). Hopefully it can do that, and you can set bitrate per resolution or something.

Yeah that would be nice.

[mikejaner]

Originally Posted by Fluffdaddy

That wasn't my point. DVR's are not the problem in their eyes.

I was trying to point out that when you have a feature that "Hollywood" does not like they go after you hard and into bankruptcy if you don't kowtow to them. And I'm just guessing here, but I don't think they are thrilled about a HD Component capture card.

I would like to know where else they did this.

In Replay's case, they were breaking copyright by distributing recorded tv across the internet. That gave them a leg to stand on for the lawsuit.

[Edit]
Nevermind, I am pushing an argument for something we should hope doesn't apply to this hardware.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Motofreak75

my X2 3800 handles 1080P h.264 conect just fine and under 30% cpu usage.

Just add a ati2600XT PCI-E into the mix and it will play it. Unless I try using a video decoder that doesnt support HW accel. them the cpu pukes on itself

Yeah, but neither my 6600GT nor the 9800 support H.264 decoding.

[fyodor]

It would be wicked-cool if bitrate/resolution could be configured at the application level. There are shows (comedies, etc) for which I don't really care about recording quality as much.

Originally Posted by stanger89

You're going to have a hard time with an E4300 and a 9800 pro. My Athlon X2 4200 (2.2GHz, dual-core) can barely handle 9-10Mbps 1080p H.264.

My big question is how are they going to handle bitrate vs resolution. I hope that it can handle recording in native output (1080i for 1080i, 480i for 480i, etc). Hopefully it can do that, and you can set bitrate per resolution or something.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You're going to have a hard time with an E4300 and a 9800 pro. My Athlon X2 4200 (2.2GHz, dual-core) can barely handle 9-10Mbps 1080p H.264.

Ah well, the one-time cost of upgrading is much less than a monthly STB DVR from the cable co. in the long run.

Originally Posted by stanger89

My big question is how are they going to handle bitrate vs resolution. I hope that it can handle recording in native output (1080i for 1080i, 480i for 480i, etc). Hopefully it can do that, and you can set bitrate per resolution or something.

I thought the ConvertX was the only capture device that didn't capture native interlaced?
Surely there are MPEG-4 profiles just like there are MPEG-2 profiles, and I would expect the same flexibility as the other Hauppagge cards. Now I do wonder if you happen to hit an SD channel, will it record that 480 in MPEG-4 or MPEG-2?

edit: FEATURE REQUEST - Separate default recording quality settings for HD & SD recordings.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Ah well, the one-time cost of upgrading is much less than a monthly STB DVR from the cable co.



I thought the ConvertX was the only capture device that didn't capture native interlaced?
Surely there are MPEG-4 profiles just like there are MPEG-2 profiles, and I would expect the same flexibility as the other Hauppagge cards. Now I do wonder if you happen to hit an SD channel, will it record that 480 in MPEG-4 or MPEG-2?

The driver software they had there, which is clearly not production, didn't have a different setting per resolution. Given it's capturing from component, the card certainly could tell from the timing what resolution is coming from the box and act accordingly. However, most of the cable STB's are designed to output only one resolution, so being able to encode at whatever the native format is is not really an option for cable boxes. I think some of the DBS boxes do better here, but the general feeling from the STB guys is that's better for the STB to do conversion than having be changing all the time and causing support calls.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by mikejaner

I would like to know where else they did this.

In Replay's case, they were breaking copyright by distributing recorded tv across the internet. That gave them a leg to stand on for the lawsuit.

[Edit]
Nevermind, I am pushing an argument for something we should hope doesn't apply to this hardware.

I'm not sure that is illegal, at least from a settled law perspective. Poopli.com does this right now for all the existing replaytv boxes that support IVS< and no one has sued them or shut them down.

The MPAA and Hollywood assert all kinds of claims, but little has been actually tested in court.

[autoboy]

Originally Posted by mikesm

The driver software they had there, which is clearly not production, didn't have a different setting per resolution. Given it's capturing from component, the card certainly could tell from the timing what resolution is coming from the box and act accordingly. However, most of the cable STB's are designed to output only one resolution, so being able to encode at whatever the native format is is not really an option for cable boxes. I think some of the DBS boxes do better here, but the general feeling from the STB guys is that's better for the STB to do conversion than having be changing all the time and causing support calls.

Too bad all STBs blow at any scaling/deinterlacing.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

I thought the ConvertX was the only capture device that didn't capture native interlaced?
Surely there are MPEG-4 profiles just like there are MPEG-2 profiles, and I would expect the same flexibility as the other Hauppagge cards. Now I do wonder if you happen to hit an SD channel, will it record that 480 in MPEG-4 or MPEG-2?

Yeah, but we're in new territory here with a card that's capturing potentially changing resolutions. SD was easy, everything was 480i. HD is much harder because it could be (theoretically at least) any of the 18 different ATSC timings.

Originally Posted by autoboy

Too bad all STBs blow at any scaling/deinterlacing.

Yeah, that's the last thing I want, my STB scaling, especially if/when I get my scaler. But that's a good point, I need to look if my VIP211 allows "native" output.

[jrog]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yeah, but we're in new territory here with a card that's capturing potentially changing resolutions. SD was easy, everything was 480i. HD is much harder because it could be (theoretically at least) any of the 18 different ATSC timings.

Well, from my perspective, I only have 720p TVs in my house, so to force all HD to 720p and reduce the file sizes, it's a compromise, but I would still be very happy. I record very little SD content, so if it's larger than normal, so be it. I have TBs of storage. In fact, I record everything through HDHRs at the moment and SD content is recorded in an HD stream, and it takes up more space than it should, but I watch it, then it gets deleted. All is well.

H.264 is much more efficient than MPEG2 anyways, so it will be a net positive.

Also, in regards to the audio, most H.264 encoders on the market handle 2.0, 5.1, and 7.1 audio on the input side. Generally, they just take the bitstream in unaltered and embed it.

edit:
Bottom line, the beauty of this, is that not everyone has the same source (comcast, dtv, fios, etc), not everybody has the same TV (1080i/p, 720p), and not everybody will want to use the same settings. I use handbrake to convert my DVDs to MP4 to watch on the extender. I use settings that others might say are overkill, and others might say are not good enough. Well, I do what I want, and the tool is flexible enough to make all of us happy. That's what will make a product like this so wonderful. Flexibility.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by mikesm

However, most of the cable STB's are designed to output only one resolution, so being able to encode at whatever the native format is is not really an option for cable boxes.

The SA HD STBs that I have (SA3250HD & SA8300HD) allow you to set what outputs you would like to use and you can then have it passthrough the original signal or convert. I allow my boxes to do 480p and 1080i. I want the 480p as it allows SD channels to show up fullscreen (without pillarboxing) as if you just select an HD resolution you will get pillarboxing which could cause burn-in on my CRT RPTV.

[otakucode]

We don't know that this device will be allowing the PC to decode the video, don't go assuming things. More likely, the video will be laced through and through with heavy duty DRM and will have to be decoded by the USB box itself. Chips like the ones seen here: http://www.ideastorm.com/article/sho...g_1920_x_1080b
Have been around for awhile, and they can do realtime video decoding and encoding. The output from that chip can be hooked into a cheap I/O chip with a hard drive and you've got 95% of your PVR right there.

I'm betting this device will have its own storage medium, as in an internal hard drive, and possibly even its own DVD drive for those AVCHD discs. Don't assume anything is going to be anywhere where you can touch it without any software not given the blessing by Hollywood until you've seen it in person. You're just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you do.

[mattdcknsn]

Killjoy.

Originally Posted by otakucode

We don't know that this device will be allowing the PC to decode the video, don't go assuming things. More likely, the video will be laced through and through with heavy duty DRM and will have to be decoded by the USB box itself. Chips like the ones seen here: http://www.ideastorm.com/article/sho...g_1920_x_1080b
Have been around for awhile, and they can do realtime video decoding and encoding. The output from that chip can be hooked into a cheap I/O chip with a hard drive and you've got 95% of your PVR right there.

I'm betting this device will have its own storage medium, as in an internal hard drive, and possibly even its own DVD drive for those AVCHD discs. Don't assume anything is going to be anywhere where you can touch it without any software not given the blessing by Hollywood until you've seen it in person. You're just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you do.

[sleonard]

Originally Posted by wayner

The SA HD STBs that I have (SA3250HD & SA8300HD) allow you to set what outputs you would like to use and you can then have it passthrough the original signal or convert. I allow my boxes to do 480p and 1080i. I want the 480p as it allows SD channels to show up fullscreen (without pillarboxing) as if you just select an HD resolution you will get pillarboxing which could cause burn-in on my CRT RPTV.

I can confirm that on the SA3250's. I have mine set to allow 480i only since I am recording with PVR250's via s-vid and prefer the deinterlacing on my PC's.

S

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by otakucode

We don't know that this device will be allowing the PC to decode the video, don't go assuming things. More likely, the video will be laced through and through with heavy duty DRM and will have to be decoded by the USB box itself. Chips like the ones seen here: http://www.ideastorm.com/article/sho...g_1920_x_1080b
Have been around for awhile, and they can do realtime video decoding and encoding. The output from that chip can be hooked into a cheap I/O chip with a hard drive and you've got 95% of your PVR right there.

I'm betting this device will have its own storage medium, as in an internal hard drive, and possibly even its own DVD drive for those AVCHD discs. Don't assume anything is going to be anywhere where you can touch it without any software not given the blessing by Hollywood until you've seen it in person. You're just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you do.

I was there, talked with the CEO of the company, and I guarantee you this is not the case. I'll try and be nice, and just leave it at that and not make any more comments about your assertion.

This product is aimed at being able to record HD content in an unencumbered way since it's already output in an unencumbered way by the STB. It is just an encoder, no playback, no storage, nothing else. The PC plays everything back, and the usb interface will give you a straight h.264 stream with no crap.

Maybe MSFT would only support it if it wrapped a layer of crap around it, but there is nothing about the device that requires this.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by otakucode

We don't know that this device will be allowing the PC to decode the video, don't go assuming things.

We have no reason to expect anything else, it's connected to a PC via USB. You can't send uncompressed HD over USB, it's not possible.

More likely, the video will be laced through and through with heavy duty DRM and will have to be decoded by the USB box itself.

Why would you think that? Even the OCUR and DirecTV boxes don't do that.

Chips like the ones seen here: http://www.ideastorm.com/article/sho...g_1920_x_1080b
Have been around for awhile, and they can do realtime video decoding and encoding. The output from that chip can be hooked into a cheap I/O chip with a hard drive and you've got 95% of your PVR right there.

But Hauppauge wasn't showing a PVR, they were showing a capture solution.

I'm betting this device will have its own storage medium, as in an internal hard drive, and possibly even its own DVD drive for those AVCHD discs.

I highly doubt it.

Don't assume anything is going to be anywhere where you can touch it without any software not given the blessing by Hollywood until you've seen it in person. You're just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you do.

This is from SageTV and/or Hauppauge, when was the last time you saw either of their products implement any DRM?

There is absolutely no reason to think this device will be "closed" DRM'd.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Maybe MSFT would only support it if it wrapped a layer of crap around it, but there is nothing about the device that requires this.

FWIW, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Hauppauge device works in MCE as well

[jrog]

Originally Posted by otakucode

We don't know that this device will be allowing the PC to decode the video, don't go assuming things. More likely, the video will be laced through and through with heavy duty DRM and will have to be decoded by the USB box itself. Chips like the ones seen here: http://www.ideastorm.com/article/sho...g_1920_x_1080b
Have been around for awhile, and they can do realtime video decoding and encoding. The output from that chip can be hooked into a cheap I/O chip with a hard drive and you've got 95% of your PVR right there.

I'm betting this device will have its own storage medium, as in an internal hard drive, and possibly even its own DVD drive for those AVCHD discs. Don't assume anything is going to be anywhere where you can touch it without any software not given the blessing by Hollywood until you've seen it in person. You're just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you do.

Honestly, I don't think you could be more wrong. In fact, I sit next to and work with an engineer where we encode 720p component video in real time to transmit over the network, with low latency, and high quality, and we use HD-DVD, Blu-ray, and HD-DVRs from Sony and DirecTV as our test sources. For various reasons, we are using the JPEG2000 codec. Our intended customers are in the medical market, and they will be using High Def cameras, but the system is the same. Using DSPs, we can process the analog high definition, no matter the source, encode it with high quality, and deliver it over the network. This is no different that when it was Tivo's with S-Video inputs, and as long as it's used within the terms of fair use, it's perfectly legal. Trust me, what this card will do is being done already, just not in the mass market, and not at an affordable price.

Also, Hauppauge has never created anything but tuner cards and usb capture devices, and they compliment all the other PVR options out there.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Hauppauge device works in MCE as well

Actually, according to the thread at TGB, ChrisL01 and bunch of others agree with me that is is highly unlikely this will work in MCE or VMC. H.264 support just isn't there, and I don't think MSFT wants to enable this kind of functionality since they want everyon to use this gelded cablecard implementation in VMC.

If you want this capability, you'll have to look at Sage and other solutions to use it.