Sage @ CES this year?

[Enormous]

Very nice. Thank you mikesm!

[mogrinz]

Originally Posted by mikesm

I stopped by the Echostar and hauppauge booths today and got a good download. It was a little hard to find someone who knew what they were talking about, but I managed to get some good info.

Hey mikesm,

I went back on Wed (just for the forum!) - it was really hard to find a knowledgeable rep, but I eventually got the same info you posted. I also went over to see Sling again in the South hall. They were nice enough to let me show them this thread so they knew what I was asking about.. There was only one rep who was familiar w/ Sage.

One interesting tidbit; the Sling rep told me that Sage was a competitor of theirs. Personally, I've always thought so: with Sage Client & Placeshifter, what exactly does Sling offer me? By labelling Sage a competitor, I felt the Sling rep gave me an implicit answer (nothing).

I also asked the Dish guys if they were planning a box that could function as a network encoder w/o 3rd party mods and they said 'no'.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by mogrinz

I also went over to see Sling again in the South hall. They were nice enough to let me show them this thread so they knew what I was asking about.. There was only one rep who was familiar w/ Sage.

One interesting tidbit; the Sling rep told me that Sage was a competitor of theirs. Personally, I've always thought so: with Sage Client & Placeshifter, what exactly does Sling offer me? By labelling Sage a competitor, I felt the Sling rep gave me an implicit answer (nothing).

I also asked the Dish guys if they were planning a box that could function as a network encoder w/o 3rd party mods and they said 'no'.

Just curious mogrinz. Did that knowledgeable rep happen to be Dave Zatz? I just know he works for Sling and I contribute to his blog so I'm just wondering. I've been plugging Dave for info, but he's been too busy to check into it. He is familiar with Sage however. Thanks,

[bbig119]

Originally Posted by mikesm

The Dish box was streaming encrypted video to Sage running on the blue ray player using DTCP-IP. The sage player was not recording it, just playing it. From the conversation with the echostar guy, it sounded like they were not going to let another device record content, but rather provide it to a device that could display it in whatever UI the device wanted. This is unlike the cable guys who will allow other devices to display content, but only if they control the UI completely.

This is not the dish box acting as a tuner to Sage.

Does this mean the content captured would not be "recorded" to be viewed later? If I'm not able to save the stream, ala PVR, why would someone spend $250 to display live streams from a STB through your computer to the TV?

Hopefully I'm misunderstanding this as it would be fantastic to get access to additional HD channels.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by bbig119

Does this mean the content captured would not be "recorded" to be viewed later?

Correct.

If I'm not able to save the stream, ala PVR, why would someone spend $250 to display live streams from a STB through your computer to the TV?

(Ignoring the $250 comment for a moment), because presumably you could stream from a DVR, today there's no way to use a Dish DVR and watch a recording in a room other than the one with the DVR (I'm ignoring the two-output ones). Such a solution would allow you to stream to other rooms. Essentially, it sounds like the Echostar STB served the purpose of the SageTV server, and the Pioneer BD player served the place of the SageTV extender.

Hopefully I'm misunderstanding this as it would be fantastic to get access to additional HD channels.

(Now, back to the $250 comment), I think you're confusing/combining two separate issues, there are three things that have come up "related" to CES on the forums:

1) Tech demo of Echostar STB streaming HD over ethernet (DTCP-IP) to a Pioneer Blu-ray player "client" running SageTV software (providing the interface).

2) Hauppauge showed a analog HD capture card with hardware H.264 encoder that reportedly will be $250 and capture 1080i/p and 720p (presumably 480i/p)?

3) Jeff has teased us asking what we would call a theoretical SageTV product similar to 2) above.

Essentially all three are entirely separate things, I think you're combining 1 and 2, which are completely independent.

Now for some personal commentary:

Re 1): This is pretty cool, depends on implementation but here's some blue-skying - it's conceivable that such a solution would allow integration of "clients" (eg Pioneer BD player) with a Dish Network DVR, what if this allowed control of the DVR through a SageTV interface, and streaming to multiple rooms in the house. It would definitely be more limited than SageTV (no comskip) but it could combine Sage's strengths (customizeable interface, streaming, clients) with the strengths of a provider DVR (perfect quality, no blasters, built-in guide from the satellite). Has the potential to be a very nice compromise between what we want and what they want us to have.

Re 2): This is quite cool, especially for those on DirecTV and cable, it's not quite as nice as an R5000 mod, but much more "user friendly" (no modding), universal compatibility.

Re 3): I'm not sure what to think, would be surprising if SageTV were having their own device OEM'd parallel to Hauppauge, but who knows. I can see how more SageTV branded hardware could lead to more "certainty" with regard to compatibility and ease the transition/setup of a SageTV system.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Re 3): I'm not sure what to think, would be surprising if SageTV were having their own device OEM'd parallel to Hauppauge, but who knows. I can see how more SageTV branded hardware could lead to more "certainty" with regard to compatibility and ease the transition/setup of a SageTV system.

What's to be surprised about? I'd personally be surprised if we didn't see the HD Extender under another 'name' brand in the next month or so. It at least gives that 'certainty' you talk about, but in reality it is establishing a SageTV brand in the likes of Moxi & TiVo.

I've very excited and proud of SageTV lately. I'm so glad to be part of it.

and pretty proud of myself for seeing their potential back in the v1.4 days.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Crashless

What's to be surprised about? I'd personally be surprised if we didn't see the HD Extender under another 'name' brand in the next month or so. It at least gives that 'certainty' you talk about, but in reality it is establishing a SageTV brand in the likes of Moxi & TiVo.

I've very excited and proud of SageTV lately. I'm so glad to be part of it.

and pretty proud of myself for seeing their potential back in the v1.4 days.

I agree. I could see SageTV branding this under their name. Doesn't mean they will, but it's possible. I like the idea of it as SageTV is definitely being noticed on Microsoft Media Center forums more these days due to the new HD extender and now the talk about this Hauppauge tuner. You can go to almost any HTPC forums and see them at least mentioning SageTV in a positive light.

[nettech_gt]

Heres a pic from Engadget HD

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Crashless

What's to be surprised about? I'd personally be surprised if we didn't see the HD Extender under another 'name' brand in the next month or so. It at least gives that 'certainty' you talk about, but in reality it is establishing a SageTV brand in the likes of Moxi & TiVo.

I'm (somewhat) surprised they'd brand a tuner, but like I said it does make sense, and surprised just means I wasn't expecting it.

I've very excited and proud of SageTV lately. I'm so glad to be part of it.

Me too, more so now that I've "seen" their Echostar/Pioneer demo. I think it would be great to see them get a foothold into that market, to power their boxes.

So long as we get to keep beta testing that is

On that note, I see a somewhat prominent "dlna" sign in that picture, that could be very big. I know I've found myself thinking that it would be really good for Sage to get themselves dlna certified:

Pioneer BD players are dlna (some)
XStreamHD is supposed to support dlna servers/clients
When there was talk of managed copy, dlna servers were mentioned an approved storage device.

I'm no fan of DRM, however, dlna is beginning to look like it might be the solution to the DRM problem that we've all been looking for, that open, standard, system that "everybody" plays with, thus allowing "premium" content on the widest array of devices possible.

and pretty proud of myself for seeing their potential back in the v1.4 days.

I'm not going to claim seeing any potential, but I'm glad I got in when I did (1.2.8 )

[stanger89]

You know, the lightbulb just went on, there's a very good chance, almost a certainty that that Pioneer Blu-ray player is just running "slightly" modified extender code. Pioneer BD players run Sigma Designs SOCs, so there's almost no difference, hardware wise, between a Pioneer BD player and a SageTV Extender

For all the SageTV and Pioneer folks watching, I'd buy a Pioneer BD player/SageTV Extender in a heartbeat.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'm (somewhat) surprised they'd brand a tuner, but like I said it does make sense, and surprised just means I wasn't expecting it.

I should clarify - the possibility of a Sage-branded device is not surprising, but a component HD h.264 encoder has blown my mind.

I have been trying to convince myself that I didn't need ESPN, HBO, etc. in HD. Now there's hope!

[autoboy]

For all the SageTV and Pioneer folks watching, I'd buy a Pioneer BD player/SageTV Extender in a heartbeat.

2 for me please. As long as it runs the full HD extender software.

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You know, the lightbulb just went on, there's a very good chance, almost a certainty that that Pioneer Blu-ray player is just running "slightly" modified extender code. Pioneer BD players run Sigma Designs SOCs, so there's almost no difference, hardware wise, between a Pioneer BD player and a SageTV Extender

For all the SageTV and Pioneer folks watching, I'd buy a Pioneer BD player/SageTV Extender in a heartbeat.

I do believe you're right. I noticed in the photo that it says "powered by SageTV" in the lower right hand corner.

If it's priced reasonably, I'd buy it in a New York minute.

[sandor]

Originally Posted by Crashless

but a component HD h.264 encoder has blown my mind.

this will be interesting to see in action. i know the content creators are trying to move towards DRM like that on HD DVD and Blu-ray. it basically is set to disallow HD signal over component video.

This is one of the crappy things about Blu-ray "winning" the race - Blu-ray *requires* AACS on every replicated disk. I have a feeling component capture HD is as "at risk" as the R5000, if not more.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by sandor

this will be interesting to see in action. i know the content creators are trying to move towards DRM like that on HD DVD and Blu-ray. it basically is set to disallow HD signal over component video.

This is one of the crappy things about Blu-ray "winning" the race - Blu-ray *requires* AACS on every replicated disk. I have a feeling component capture HD is as "at risk" as the R5000, if not more.

BR being a new tech may be able to get away with down-resing component to prevent HQ captures of their movies, but I don't see cable/sat companies being able to do the same. There are still WAY to many people who just have component for them to throw down like this.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You know, the lightbulb just went on, there's a very good chance, almost a certainty that that Pioneer Blu-ray player is just running "slightly" modified extender code. Pioneer BD players run Sigma Designs SOCs, so there's almost no difference, hardware wise, between a Pioneer BD player and a SageTV Extender

For all the SageTV and Pioneer folks watching, I'd buy a Pioneer BD player/SageTV Extender in a heartbeat.

I talked to some of the folks about that in at the Pioneer booth. It appears that Sage and Pioneer have had some conversations, but they made it clear this was just a tech demo, and there were no plans to offer this as a product, at least not yet.

This is encouraging though, since to get this far, it means the Sage guys must have gotten the attention of some OEM's, and are cooperating with them, at least on potential collaboration. With VMC being such a dog, I can see why the OEM's would be looking for a product that can really deliver a solid PVR experience, but MSFT doesn't make such a product.

As I tried to say in the first note, the h.264 component encoder isn't really targeted at the HD-DVD and BR disk recording/copying market. There are much better solutions for that, so there really is no reason for folks to use this kind of card for that function. So the donwsampling, even if they turn it on, really isn't relevant as far as this product goes.

The hauppauge people did mention they had been talking to the Sage folks about this, so I suspect this is the solution narflex was referring to. However, as my buddies who track h.264 encoders tell me, quite a few other products that do the same thing are in the pipeline... These things have actually existing for some time, as this is how the Cable and satellite guys encode native analog video to h.264. This new round of cards though takes things down from $10K a pop to consumer levels, which is very nice.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

I talked to some of the folks about that in at the Pioneer booth. It appears that Sage and Pioneer have had some conversations, but they made it clear this was just a tech demo, and there were no plans to offer this as a product, at least not yet.

No doubt, I just realized that the hardware is very similar between the extender and a Pioneer BD player. I know most were thinking "BD == Java, Sage == Java", but I'm guessing they just tweaked the extender code (which may or may not run on a JVM on the extender).

This is encouraging though, since to get this far, it means the Sage guys must have gotten the attention of some OEM's, and are cooperating with them, at least on potential collaboration. With VMC being such a dog, I can see why the OEM's would be looking for a product that can really deliver a solid PVR experience, but MSFT doesn't make such a product.

Yeah, just getting into a tech demo with the likes of E* and Pioneer is a great accomplishment.

As I tried to say in the first note, the h.264 component encoder isn't really targeted at the HD-DVD and BR disk recording/copying market.

Agreed completely, that's about as logical as using a PVR-150 to copy a DVD.

There are much better solutions for that, so there really is no reason for folks to use this kind of card for that function. So the donwsampling, even if they turn it on, really isn't relevant as far as this product goes.

Yup. It was probably a case of a BD player was the easiest source for HD video at a show.

The hauppauge people did mention they had been talking to the Sage folks about this, so I suspect this is the solution narflex was referring to. However, as my buddies who track h.264 encoders tell me, quite a few other products that do the same thing are in the pipeline...

Yeah, it kind of seems that way.

These things have actually existing for some time, as this is how the Cable and satellite guys encode native analog video to h.264. This new round of cards though takes things down from $10K a pop to consumer levels, which is very nice.

FWIW, I really doubt what Hauppauge uses is the same thing (eg) Dish Network uses for their H.264 encoding, probably not even in the same class. BUT, there have been HD video cameras out for a year or two, all the AVCHD cameras need to use a cheap encoder, so I'm guessing that's the type of application these chips are coming from.

[jm9843]

Originally Posted by stanger89

For all the SageTV and Pioneer folks watching, I'd buy a Pioneer BD player/SageTV Extender in a heartbeat.

It looks like they were using the Pioneer BD30 in their demo.

I wonder how feasible it would be to author a standard Blu-ray disc that simply loads a SageTV extender BD-J application. In that way, any off the shelf BD-30 could act as an HD extender. Hopefully the notoriously slow performance of BD-J on Blu-ray stand-alone players won't prevent this.

Being an HD DVD supporter that has been likely forced to adopt Blu-ray because of the Warner defection, I am definitely interested in the prospect of this.

And the Hauppauge HD PVR is very good news. I was just about to go with a Tivo HD but am now reconsidering.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jm9843

It looks like they were using the Pioneer BD30 in their demo.

BD30? I think you're thinking Panasonic , maybe it was the 05FD, the Panny BD30 doesn't have ethernet.

I wonder how feasible it would be to author a standard Blu-ray disc that simply loads a SageTV extender BD-J application. In that way, any off the shelf BD-30 could act as an HD extender. Hopefully the notoriously slow performance of BD-J on Blu-ray stand-alone players won't prevent this.

Would be interesting.

[mogrinz]

Originally Posted by Brent

Just curious mogrinz. Did that knowledgeable rep happen to be Dave Zatz?

I believe it was