Help Digital Rapids design us an HD capture card!

[stanger89]

I just wanted to let everyone here know about this thread over at the AVSForum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1

The jist is that one of the forum members, ElvisIncognito, contacted Digital Rapids, makers of the CarbonHD professional HD capture card, about the availability of a PCI that would allow capture of HD content from a Cable/Sat box. It appears that DR is interested in the possibility of producing such a card and would like to know what features are desired.

So please stop over at the AVSForums and let your voice be heard. Post your desired features or just post your support, the more people that post over there, the greater the possibility being able to do with HD, what we now do with SD.

Also, I thought I'd post a poll about what pricerange would be good for such a product.

Jeff and Dan, if you're reading this, your word would probably go much further than any one of ours. This would be a great feature to put under Sage's belt.

[AJ Bertelson]

As I posted in that other thread $225 would be a good price it would have be a very good card and have some very good features to get me consider something else.

[stanger89]

I was trying not influence this with my vision on what this could be, but perhaps it will help others come up with ideas.

The current state of HD recording is in limbo. Currently we can do OTA HD exclusively. It is unlikely (IMO) that we will see anything that can capture HD over cable/sat anytime soon, if ever.

I see a card like this as offering us a way to record anything available on cable/sat (SD and HD) for a long time, since it will probably be a long time before Cable/Sat providers can afford to eliminate component outputs from their STBs. I agree that $225 would be a great pricepoint, but a card like this would be much more valuable than the current crop of HD cards.

Just think, we would be able to PVR all the SD channels we do now, plus we could PVR things like HBO-HD, SHOW-HD, HDNET, DiscoveryHD, INHD, ESPN HD, all the Voom HD Channels, all of which there is no way to PVR yet, plus, ABC, CBS, Fox (if they ever go HD) NBC, UPN, and WB, without an OTA antenna.

FWIW.

[salsbst]

I'd pay at least $750 if the files were not too much bigger than the broadcast transport streams, and if the quality was in the same ballpark as the transport streams.

[Cheesehead]

I would consider such a card the holy grail of video capture. $750.00 is steep, but worth it to me.

Willie

[SHS]

HD recording is not going happing ocen 7/2005 get here.

[stanger89]

The thing with this card is that it would record BF free analog video. This card would take advantage of the "Analog Hole" in the BF issue.

As Elvis said in the AVS thread, Digital River asked us what features we would like to see, so let's tell them what features we'd like and let them worry about the logistics (leagalities).

It's good to see this thread is getting some attention here, even if most of the people who vote in the pole don't post, hint, hint.

[mikesm]

I don't think it's going to be possible to build a card that takes component or DVI HD in and do realtime encoding of it, at least not without great expense. The broadcasters use very expensive solutions to solve this problem.

I think the better approach is to try and pursue 1394b style interconnection that somehow finesesses or breaks the encryption, or pursue CableCard style decryption on a PC platform. Either way it's just extracting an existing HD stream rather than trying to encode something in the analog domain.

Thanks,
Mike

[stanger89]

In the thread I linked to, there was a post about an SDI capture card with a hardware MPEG2 encoder on it. It was $600. Now SDI mods from PMS Video are $100. Considering that the press release was from a year or two ago, it doesn't seem like a stretch to be able to make a HD over Component capture card for $450-500.

FW would be a great solution (SW only), as would a CableCard solution. The problem with either of these is that with the rampant paranoia in the content creation/distribution industries I'd be very surprised to see anything that allow bit-perfect copies to be stored on a computer, at least not anytime soon.

As for breaking encryption, that would obviously in violation of the DMCA (not that I'm big on the DMCA or anything). Something like this would probably never achieve any sort of widespread acceptance. It's definitely not something I want Frey associated with.

[ElvisIncognito]

Originally posted by mikesm
I don't think it's going to be possible to build a card that takes component or DVI HD in and do realtime encoding of it, at least not without great expense. The broadcasters use very expensive solutions to solve this problem.

I understand where you're coming from, Mike, but this is what Digital Rapids *does*, and they've expressed interest in possibly pursuing this. I don't think they would have done this unless they thought it could be done.

There has been *so much* of this kind of talk over on AVS - so many naysaying "experts"... it's really frustrating. I wish everyone would simply go with the spirit of this thing and assume that DRC has the technology and the know-how to get this done. They're in this business. They're successful. If they think they can do it, let's at least give them our input so that if they DO do it, we'll get what we need.

[ElvisIncognito]

Originally posted by stanger89
Jeff and Dan, if you're reading this, your word would probably go much further than any one of ours. This would be a great feature to put under Sage's belt.

I couldn't agree more. Jeff/Dan - if DRC knew they had a SW partner lined up and eager to participate, it might really motivate them. Please feel free to PM me for the e-ddress of the President of DRC.

[stanger89]

Hey, welcome to the forums Elvis.

[kny3twalker]

I have not finished readin it yet
but wow
I think it would be awesome if SageTV supported this
only thing I need to check on is whether my Southwestern Bell Cable (DirecTV)company has HDTV service available

[PGPfan]

kny3twalker,

I don't think (sadly) that this will ever go anywhere. I know that Elvis asked the AVS forum admins to delete his account and unfortunatly he's for the most part dropped out of the HTPC scene. Truely a shame, since he was an incredible source of knowledge in this matter.

Now, perhaps someone from here might be willing to pick-up the ball and run with it? If someone was interested in doing so, I can contact Elvis and request some information from him that might lead to his contact with Digital Rapids, and forward them the info if it'd help.

I'd love to have something like this.

-PGPfan

[stanger89]

There's a cryptic post about "HD recording on silicon" over at AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...12#post4653412

Not really sure what to make of it, but it's the most promising post I've seen in a while.

[PGPfan]

stanger89,

I saw that post as well. Not sure what to think. I'm sure that there are some manufacturers considering 'HD on silicon', which to me just says chip integration. If I'm not mistaken, that is actually not new. I believe that these type of cards exist already, but are priced in the $1000+ category. I think that the hope that Elvis had with Digital Rapids was to have one that an HTPC enthusiast could afford.

I sure hope that something like this comes to fruition. Things like VOOM, etc are just begging for some 'timeshifting'.

-PGPfan

[sleonard]

First off, that thread has been dead for some time now. Ever since Elvis left the AVS Forum. I tried to revive it last week and there has been some activity recently but nothing from DR since Elvis started the thread.

OTOH, I see Elvis is here and still interested. Maybe we can take up where the AVS thread left off.

On a more positive note, not only is an HD encoding chip possible in the consumer price range but as shown by the $600 SDI card linked to in the AVS thread it is already being done. So much for the naysayers! Granted that card is not designed for the type of use we want it for but it does encode HD from analog and it is relatively cheap.

I do not think that Firewire nor cablecard access will ever be allowed on PC's in the Corporate States of America. It just ain't gonna happen. That leaves only OTA and the "analog hole" available to us and even OTA has the BF. What we need is a HD version of the PVR250.

That said, here's my input on what features I would like to see:

1) component video input
2) accepts 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p
3) onboard de-interlacing (can you say Faroudja?) controlled by SW.
4) outputs 480i as either 480i or 480p depending on user setting of de-interlace
5) outputs 720p as 720p
6) outputs 1080i as either 1080i or 1080p depending on user setting of de-interlace
7) outputs mpeg4 and variants (DivX, VC-9). HD mpeg2 and TS files are too big.
8) both optical and coaxial digital audio inputs (SP/DIF)
9) ability to have multiple cards in a system. (PCI-e interface probably necessary for this)

If a card that did all that was to become available $400-500 would be reasonable at least until it became mainstream enough that production costs fell.

My $.02

Scott

[PGPfan]

Scott,

You mention Elvis still being here? (no jokes please) His most recent post in this thread is almost a year ago. The only reason I mention this is that I've kept (somewhat) in contact with him outside of the forums, and I can contact him if need be.

As for my thoughts on the dream card, I'd change a couple of your wants:

1) Component in - This is likely, but I'd let the most common output of HD recievers be the deciding factor.

3) Onboard De-interlace - This I definately wouldn't want. For one thing, it will drive the cost WAY up. (evidenced by the Holo-3D cards.) Let the video card do it.

4,5,6) Outputs? Leave all this up to the video cards VPU. Remember, this whole concept is about getting analog HD "INPUT" into the PC.

7) Not part of an output per se, this is the hardware encoder that will determine what format it's in.

8) I'd change these to 'pass-thru' rather than input only.

Otherwise, looks like a great card.



Did you have a recent Elvis sighting on either board? (ok, I'm serious (and joking) at the same time)

-PGPfan

[mikejaner]

It's funny seeing the guys talk about the PCI bus not being able to handle it, and that it will be illegal at the July/05 mark.

1: The PCI bus can perfectly handle the ~16Mbps the card would output to the hard drive in an MPEG2 Encoded stream.

2: It's not illegal to capture analog, and it won't be in July/05

[sleonard]

Oops, I wasn't paying attention to the dates. I thought this was a new thread so I haven't seen any recent posts by Elvis.

When I said outputs I meant thru the PCI or PCIe bus not that I wanted physical connections. i.e. - The Hauppage PVR250 takes an SD analog signal via s-vid and outputs an SD mpeg2 file. Likewise, my (dream) card would take an HD analog signal and output an HD mpeg4 file.