How stable is your system?

[cassis6]

I had also Sage freezing up with the 1.7.21337 drivers from the shspvr.com site (specially after adding a second PVR-250).

I then reverted to the official drivers from the Hauppauge site and my system is now stable, no more lock-ups.

[snipeman]

My computer says I'm running:

1.17.390.21283

It's what the CD that came with the Hauppage 350 installed.

Should I revert to 1.7.21288 (that seems to be what's on Hauppage's web site)

Andy

[cassis6]

Some posts have mentioned IRQ sharing issues when the PVR card is in PCI slot 1 and an AGP card is used (the suggestion was to move the PVR card to another slot).

[danward79]

Hey my htpc has hit 33 days, without a reboot and 12 days for the sage instance.

[Tej]

Longest uptime 44 days. Took a screenshot before I rebooted

Finally had to reboot because the USB WiFi point lost its IP lease to the network, and I couldn't get it to re-lease without rebooting the PC. Darn XP

Dedicated Shuttle ss55g, WinXP, PVR-250 (original Hauppage drivers that came with card), SageTV 1.4.10

[robogeek]

Before I move my SageTV server over to the v2.0 beta and apply some Windows updates this weekend, I thought I'd post a screenshot of the OUTSTANDING stability I have enjoyed for the past 2 months with SageTV v1.4.10

SageTV is really the only app that runs on my media server in my home office and I do more than 90% of my SageTV interaction via the SageTV Client from the living room... Regardless, 2 months and counting without a PVR-250 failure, SageTV failure, Windows XP failure, or any other major hardware/software failures is pretty darn impressive considering it's a MS Windows based media server

For the record, here are the server specs:

MS Windows XP Pro SP1 + updates through Dec 2003
SageTV v1.4.10
350W power supply
ECS K7S5A Pro v5 motherboard
Non-Official Cheepoman BIOS with IOAPIC enabled
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ processor
256MB RAM
2 Hauppauge PVR-250 TV tuners
Promise Ultra100 TX2 IDE controller
1 40Gb Maxtor IDE hard drive
2 250GB Maxtor IDE hard drives
1 200GB Western Digital IDE hard drive
1 120GB Western Digital IDE hard drive
cheap S3 Savage4 AGP graphics card
cheap spare DVD drive
lots of fans!

I chose the ECS K7S5A Pro motherboard because it had an IOAPIC (an IOAPIC gives you more than 16 IRQs) but the stock BIOS didn't have an option to enable it. I found an overclocker BIOS (http://www.ocworkbench.com/2002/ecs/...cheepobios.htm that had that option in the BIOS...it worked. And yet, even with more than enough additional IRQs, Windows STILL insists on sharing them! It hasn't been a problem though, and it's not nearly as bad as it would have been with the IOAPIC disabled, so I can't really complain During my initial setup and use of SageTV, I had a 200W power supply and only 40GB and 120GB hard drives. With this setup I did encounter the PVR-250 hardware failure with SageTV a couple of times which required a reboot to solve. Before adding the 200GB and the 2 250GB hard drives, I upgraded the power supply from 200W to 350W and added hard drive cooling fans and 2 more case fans. I think the power supply upgrade and additional cooling fans made the difference in stability for me. For fans, I now have:

2 hard drive cooling fans (1 on top of the stack and 1 on the bottom). 2 fans in the power supply instead of the 1 fan in the stock power supply. And 3 case fans instead of just 1 fan that came with the case (1 in front blowing air in across the center of the hard drive stack, 1 on top of the case blowing air out, and one in the rear blowing air out. The sensor reports Motherboard Temp at 33C (91F) and CPU Temp at 41C (106F).

I wish I could say SageTV Client and my SageTV Client machine fared as well, but I seem to have to exit and restart the SageTV Client program once in a while (couple times a week?) to get it to stream the video...clicking on Live TV or clicking in the guide to watch a show doesn't do anything, until I exit and restart SageTV Client. Seems to be a network problem... SageTV/SageTV Client losing the connection and not fully re-establishing the connections? Not to big of a hassle...I now use a button on the remote and Girder as a work-around. And as far as I know, it hasn't caused me to lose any favorites or recordings or anything serious like that

Here's the screenshot (oh yeah, life is good ):

http://www.myhtpcresource.net/roboge...er3-4-2004.gif

[wr202]

I would like to thank everyone who posted here. Your great, detailed answers really helped me. A day or two after my post, I had a good working system up, and I never really had any problems since then. I would like to apologize for not coming back sooner and thanking everyone. I was planning to come back and tell my results after a few days, but because it was working so well, I really didn't have to take the system down like I was thinking I would. It just kept working, and so I kept delaying coming back here. Thank you very much.

[rak306]

wr202 wrote: " How stable is your system? ... Right now, I'm trying to decide whether I should keep pursuing this, or if I should just quit for now and stop spending money if I'm expecting this to be as stable as a vcr. "

If you want a TIVO like replacement (with output to a real TV, not just a computer screen), SageTV just isn't there, and who knows if it ever will be with the PVR-350.

The OSD is only available with V2 and only with the PVR-350. The OSD is a REQUIREMENT for anyone using this other than the geek (e.g. me) who configured the system. SageTV V2, with the PVR-350, with TV output enabled, with OSD, hard crashes on many systems. Blame whoever you want, Frey, Hauppauge, Intel, Microsoft, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is a system that hard crashes the computer gets a F.

I fully expected this system to work once V2 was released. I bought 2 (low cost) computers, A PVR-250 for the server, PVR-350 for the client, connected via wireless network, all just for a TIVO like system. It works somewhat. The server is stable, the client is not with OSD, is without OSD. I believe this is the norm (with the PVR-350), not the exception.

Now if they move the OSD to the Xcard, or better yet, the client to the media MVP, then there MAY, be some hope.

Rick

[ckron]

Rick,

I feel your pain. I gave up on my newer Intel chipset (845) and put my 350 in a MB with a 440BX chipset. The OSD out on the 350 works great in this old PC.

[jominor]

Originally posted by rak306
wr202 wrote: " How stable is your system? ... Right now, I'm trying to decide whether I should keep pursuing this, or if I should just quit for now and stop spending money if I'm expecting this to be as stable as a vcr. "

If you want a TIVO like replacement (with output to a real TV, not just a computer screen), SageTV just isn't there, and who knows if it ever will be with the PVR-350.

The OSD is only available with V2 and only with the PVR-350. The OSD is a REQUIREMENT for anyone using this other than the geek (e.g. me) who configured the system. SageTV V2, with the PVR-350, with TV output enabled, with OSD, hard crashes on many systems. Blame whoever you want, Frey, Hauppauge, Intel, Microsoft, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is a system that hard crashes the computer gets a F.

I fully expected this system to work once V2 was released. I bought 2 (low cost) computers, A PVR-250 for the server, PVR-350 for the client, connected via wireless network, all just for a TIVO like system. It works somewhat. The server is stable, the client is not with OSD, is without OSD. I believe this is the norm (with the PVR-350), not the exception.

Now if they move the OSD to the Xcard, or better yet, the client to the media MVP, then there MAY, be some hope.

Rick

Well, a VCR is a very simple piece of technology. I've never liked the toaster/car/computer analogies because I've always felt that they were not accurate. Computers are complex devices provide great flexibility. Instead of using a VCR, a game console, a TIVO, and a DVD player, I use one computer to run them all.

However, I expect that something with so many "moving" parts will have some issues from time to time. The question, of course, is is this potential downtime acceptable.

I've experience some, but I get far more benefits using Sage than using all the other items. I get the ability to add more storage, or change something I no longer like, or squeeze as much use out of my system as I can.

I think that it is stable enough to give to say, my mom, provide I give here a couple of hints on troubleshooting. I consider this no different than saying "If you don't change your oil, eventually, your car will fail."

[mikejaner]

I agree with Jominor,

Also,

Those who have the newer Intel chipsets are out of luck for now because of the driver problems. The fact that the 350 output works properly on SageTV with ATI, Nforce2, Via, and older Intel chipsets tells you right there that this is not a SageTV problem. This same problem exists on GBPVR, which is the only other windows software that currently supports the 350 OSD also. This narrows the problem off to be in Intel's and Hauppauge's court. Blaming Frey and saying that they are not up to par with their final release is unjustified. 2.0 is very stable, and very reliable for me, including 350 output.

[rak306]

jominor wrote "Well, a VCR is a very simple piece of technology. I've never liked the toaster/car/computer analogies because I've always felt that they were not accurate. Computers are complex devices provide great flexibility. "

TIVO has a computer in it and does not crash. I agree it may be impossible with Windows and all of the variations of PC, (and the PVR-350 in particular), to build such a device, but go back to the original question posed by wr202:

"... Right now, I'm trying to decide whether I should keep pursuing this, or if I should just quit for now and stop spending money if I'm expecting this to be as stable as a vcr. "

Well I think he is not going to find what he wants in stability.

In my book, stabality, reliability, come first. Features come second. SageTV, with the PVR-350 with OSD, hard crashes my machine. I must unplug power to reboot. That is unsatisfactory.

mikejaner wrote: "Blaming Frey and saying that they are not up to par with their final release is unjustified. 2.0 is very stable, and very reliable for me, including 350 output. "

I didn't blame Frey, I blamed the whole system. I too have an Anus MB and a Celeron in my client, and with TV out, and OSD enabled it will freeze up.

I still use it, and "Love" it. Some day it will be great, but for now 2.0 is still beta in my book. (I "use" it wihtout OSD enabled, which I cold have done without a 350).


Rick

[Deadbolt]

I agree rak306....people here get upset when someone points out his/her system is unstable and tells us not to bash Frey. The point isn't to bash Frey, it is to warn others that for some reason (as you point out...Frey, Hauppauge, Intel, etc.) the system is not there yet. 1.4 was stable as all hell, I believe we will get there...note: WILL get there, as we are not there now.

[ckron]

If stability is job one, then why would you involve a windows PC? That is what set top boxes like Tivo are for. With flexibilty comes instability. This is just a computing fact.

[mlbdude]

Originally posted by Deadbolt
I agree rak306....people here get upset when someone points out his/her system is unstable and tells us not to bash Frey. The point isn't to bash Frey, it is to warn others that for some reason (as you point out...Frey, Hauppauge, Intel, etc.) the system is not there yet. 1.4 was stable as all hell, I believe we will get there...note: WILL get there, as we are not there now.

Who is we? I assume you mean 350 users. For me 2.0 is just as stable as 1.4. Now that it is released lets see if we can break some records on uptime .

[jominor]

Originally posted by rak306
jominor wrote "Well, a VCR is a very simple piece of technology. I've never liked the toaster/car/computer analogies because I've always felt that they were not accurate. Computers are complex devices provide great flexibility. "

TIVO has a computer in it and does not crash. I agree it may be impossible with Windows and all of the variations of PC, (and the PVR-350 in particular), to build such a device, but go back to the original question posed by wr202:

"... Right now, I'm trying to decide whether I should keep pursuing this, or if I should just quit for now and stop spending money if I'm expecting this to be as stable as a vcr. "

Well I think he is not going to find what he wants in stability.

In my book, stabality, reliability, come first. Features come second. SageTV, with the PVR-350 with OSD, hard crashes my machine. I must unplug power to reboot. That is unsatisfactory.

mikejaner wrote: "Blaming Frey and saying that they are not up to par with their final release is unjustified. 2.0 is very stable, and very reliable for me, including 350 output. "

I didn't blame Frey, I blamed the whole system. I too have an Anus MB and a Celeron in my client, and with TV out, and OSD enabled it will freeze up.

I still use it, and "Love" it. Some day it will be great, but for now 2.0 is still beta in my book. (I "use" it wihtout OSD enabled, which I cold have done without a 350).


Rick

So does a microwave, but they are not the same. A Tivo is far more limited than a PC. Look at the effort you must undertake to add storage. A person with a Tivo has soldering(last I heard). I just plug in a USB2 drive. Also, I play music and movies on my box.

I certainly agree with you about stability. If it wasn't stable, I woudn't use it. However, I wanted to do a bit more and a standard PVR didn't do it. I didn't go with BTV for the same reason. I wanted multiple tuners, in my case 250 v16.

Back to the first paragraph, I'm getting pretty impressive stability. I'll say that a Tivo, like a console would be more stable, but look at it like this. Counting the 24/7 operation of last week, I've had maybe 1hr of down time. That's about what? .5% downtime. It's hard for even a Tivo to improve on that.

[Llamas]

There was no soldering required for the last three Tivos I upgraded... Boot a PC with a Linux CD, yes, hook up IDE drives to said PC, then transfer to the Tivo, yes. A project, yes, but not scary difficult.

Anyway, the difference between something like a SageTV server/client or HTPC and a Tivo is that with a commerical embedded device (or even Media Center PCs), the manufacturer gets to nail down a set of hardware, and beat on it until that configuration works and is stable.

I've recently rebuilt my SageTV server after going through a messy set of hardware changes, driver rollbacks, system restores, etc. Messy. Unstable as hell. Once I hit my final configuration, I saved off all of my configuration files, and did a clean install, taking drive images at various checkpoints in case I screwed things up. It is running beautifully, now. Only time will tell if it stays this way, but the obvious stuff that was due to not-quite-removed old drivers and codec conflicts is gone.

Your milage may vary, but I guess my suggestion is to treat the SageTV boxen like embedded devices; figure out the hardware and software configuration you want, install it clean, and leave it alone.

Now if only I didn't still have the -15 -16 issue after reboot to deal with. I'm counting on my UPS and lack of changes to the system to keep reboots few and far between.

--Mike

[mikejaner]

I'm looking at 4 days 7 hours and 9 minutes of uptime. That's just because of the Final release. I had at least a week on that too before I took it down to upgrade.

Yes I do get sensitive sometimes when the blame game gets a little too "unresearched". I just have a dislike for when something gets hammered when it's something else's fault.

[jb33]

Sage crashes frequently since about beta .18. never while I'm using it. Only when i 've come back without sleeping it over night. Despite having the screen saver disabled, I'll come back to a frozen system with a black screen with the SageTV logo. Ususally a restart will get me back but the last time my sage.properties file got corrupted (as did the backup) and i got a java error.

If Sage is not to be blamed for the crashing, I'd guess it is drive space or heat or java - I don't think I've ever used a java app that didn't make my computer unstable.

The other thing that happens is Sage looses contact with the USB-UIRT device sometimes. I have to quit sage, disconnect the device, uninstall it. reinstall it. restart sage and I'm good to go.

Regarding available drive space. does Sage delete files to create space? i would prfer it stop recording. It should even be able to popup a low available space warning if you get down below some user configurable limit.

[justme]

I've heard of some of the issues your having, occurring when your computer is using power management. Is your system setup to sleep(computer not sage) or hibernate? Also are you using a PVR350 or PVR250(similiar card)?

Regarding available drive space. does Sage delete files to create space? i would prfer it stop recording.

Check out the SageTV FAQ. See my signature for link. Great answer to that question already there.