Sun drops Java Support - good or bad?

[stevech]

By Antone Gonsalves
InformationWeek
Tue May 8, 7:23 PM ET

Sun Microsystems on Tuesday handed over Java to the masses, donating all of the technology to the open source community as well as introducing technology meant to take Java to every Internet-connected device in the world.
...
The difference is Sun is no longer willing to lead such a monumental task alone. Instead, it's giving the same open source community responsible for the Linux operating system, the task of overseeing the technology.

Does this mean that apps like SageTV based on Java (and the VM) are now at the mercy of the open source community? Companies whose income depends on Java now have heightened risks? Or will the open source community do well?

[flavius]

Originally Posted by stevech

Or will the open source community do well?

If anything we are going to see a lot more colors: Texas Java could easily be one of the first, and we definiteley will see Java, The Definitive Vegan Edition.

I wouldn't worry. We'll be fine. People might actually become interested again, I mean, starting to come up with really weird things again..

Do you frequent Starbucks? Pick a coffee. Java is no more. Long live Venti Latte ...

[stevech]

Oh? So like Linux, we'll have 31-flavors of Java?

Will we hear: My App likes strawberry and cherry-berry but is allergic to vanilla.
(that's the state of Linux)

[flavius]

^Not quite. If I'd need a server I'd know what to run. As far as the desktop is concerned, the MAC has always been the better n*x derivate. But you sure can run a linux desktop, I did for more than ten years almost exclusively. I'm still thinking about returning to TeX which is a wonder, nothing looks better.

Just be faithful. Don'ty cheat on the love of your live, by going [Ubuntu], in the dark of the night.

Edit: Ubuntu, btw has a decent server iso. I do think they do know what they are doing.

[Razillian]

I am up in the air regarding java going open source, I like open source I just would be worried about the many different flavors. Search through the forums and see the hundreds of posts regarding which version of java works best with Sage. Now take that to the power of 20, and that is how many confused questions will be out regarding not only which version, but whose version.

That being said, this could be a good thing for the world of windows pocket pcs and people who want to run Placeshifter on them (like myself). Odds are very good that some kick butt open source developer has a Treo and wants a compatible java running on it, leading to a possible implementation of placeshifter on said devices. Which would rock.

[Mahoney]

There was always the possibility of having multiple different JVMs anyway, even before they went open source on the Java code contained in the JRE. The JVM that most Linux distros have is not the Sun JVM; IBM have one, too; famously Microsoft made their one with custom hooks to try and subvert Java. Different JVMs is a basic feature of Javaland, so there's already lots of room for discussion as to which one performs better with SageTV.

As to the new open sourcing; it's in no-one's interest for Java to fork severely. A few people might try it, but their efforts will mostly die fast. What might happen is for there to be one fork, with a "Java for enthusiasts" coming out that forgets backwards compatibility so it can produce a more "pure" language, correcting the mistakes of the past, and embraces some of the more controversial syntactic things like operator overload. But the resulting JVM would not be compatible with "real" Java apps like SageTV, so there would be no debate as to which to run. It would be like .net 1 and .net 2.

The primary thing this is about, as far as I can see, is allowing purist Linux distributions to ship with Sun's JRE and JDK, as the licensing previously was such that they refused (either for legal or ideological reasons, can't remember which).

[wvpolekat]

Well, in all honesty, it couldn't be any worse. Java is wonderful in theory, but horrid in practice. It's overly version sensitive with a hyperactive release schedule. It's glacially slow. In a nutshell, I think Java borders on a virus along side browser toolbars and bonzi buddy. Unfortunately, anymore, you need to have it.

Now, I don't know if the open source crowd can fix any of this or not. But, I also suspect that Sun will continue to release "Sun Java" that is more predictable for applications like Sage that rely on it.

[Mahoney]

It's overly version sensitive

What makes you say that? They've done two major jumps in whatever it is, 15 years, and the second of these (the leap to 1.5 syntax) is deliberately backwards compatible.

It's glacially slow

No it's not. This old myth has been refuted time out of mind. Anyone using say, Eclipse, will know it isn't remotely slow.

Swing is slow. But that's not Java.

After working with it every day for the last 7 tears I'm rather fond of it. It was a major reason for me choosing SageTV, and is probably the major reason why you can get SageTV for Mac and Linux.

[wvpolekat]

If I had a nickel for every time some java widget or some such wouldn't run because it wanted Java version 1.2.4.333b and I had 1.2.4.332q I would be rich. While this may not really be the fault of Java itself and more the fault of the widget, to the end user, it's all the same. They want to run something and it won't. Add to this the fact that there are minor version releases every 15 min or so and it adds up to a horrid user experience.

If swing is part of Java, then Java is glacially slow. Add to that the fact that almost everything Java I have ever run routinely uses more resources than everything else my PC is doing combined and it again adds up to a terrible user experience.

To be fair, I am pretty Java ignorant, but I am aware there are many flavors and ways to use it. In the end, I can honestly say that I cringe every time something requires Java and fully expect it to be a resource hogging dog.

In my opinion, the only reason Java is as prolific as it is has nothing to do with how well it works. It's all about how easy it is to code for and the number of people out there that can code in it.

[flavius]

Originally Posted by wvpolekat

To be fair, I am pretty Java ignorant..

Really

[roxy99]

Open source or commercial is irrelevant in the life cycle of a programming language. The Java language will live or die based on its own merits independent of whether open source or not. Consider Python, Perl and other open source languages which are thriving. If Java dies it will be because evolution has decided its no longer a viable language.

PS- There is nothinhg easy or difficult in any programming language. It depends on the apptitudes of the individual programmers. Also a Java app can be slow or fast depending on how well the application is designed. The platform Java will not render an application slow undless it is inefficiently coded.

[hechacker1]

I highly doubt Java will fork into multiple versions because of open-sourcing.

The simple fact is that Java is very complex and takes lots of man hours to develop. Most likely the development of Java will continue as is (since very few Sun people actually understand the recently open sourced code) and be improved by people submitting obvious patches and code cleanup.

I expect Java to become the leading language (and it already is).

If anything, SageTV will work much better with open sourced java because now Java bugs can be looked at and fixed (where as previously the source wasn't available).

And Java (and interpreted bytecode languages in general) can be just as fast or faster than native code.

These old myths need to go away. Future high level languages will become even more abstract and interpreted. It allow for maximum portability; and hence why SageTV is available on Linux/Windows and now MacOS.

Anywhere Java can go, Sage can go. Open sourcing Java only means more operating systems will get his technology.

[Ryokurin]

Its going to be several years before we see anything major, look at mozilla for example. Netscape open sourced navigator in 98, but it took people almost three years before Mozilla became decent, and even then Firefox didn't occur until a few years after that (mostly from a guy wanting to cut down the bloat)

Open sourced Java will be great, but I know better than to expect anything at all to come from it anytime soon. I figure it will be 2009 before we start seeing anything earth shaking.

[stevech]

short term, I suppose there's no impact.

But long term, seems like a product company like SageTV who uses Java will have to take the source in house and sustain a version that assuredly works with the product. This seems 180 degrees out from the original intent of Java.

At some point, it gets less costly (in manpower) to just rehost the application to use the platform's OS framework. That would be Vista and OS X these days.

(me, having tried many Linuxes over the years - I like PCLinuxOS the most now because all commonly needed features work after the install. Like NTFS shares, printers, scanners, VNC, etc.). Not so Ubuntu by a long shot. Xandros was my previous favorite but they lag several Kernel revs back so my ASUS Mobo works only with the two most recent Kernels)

[flavius]

The source code is being open sourced, but the process of defining the spec is still the Java Community Process.

James Gosling

Hm, who is James Gosling.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by flavius

Hm, who is James Gosling.

Best known as the father of the Java programming language. He is generally credited as the inventor of the Java programming language in 1994. He did the original design of Java and implemented its original compiler and virtual machine. For this achievement he was elected to the United States National Academy of Engineering.



Gerry