Video delay using Sage vs. Dscaler

[Brian B]

I recently installed a PVR 250 and d/l the SageTV trial. I have a few questions.

System is: P4 1.4 (256 RAM), Radeon 7200, PVR 250, M-Audio 24/96, external surround processor with analog/digital inputs, and graphics grade CRT projector. External Dish sat box for TV source.

The story: In the past I took the video signal from a VCR/SAT direct into a WinTV FM card and ran Dscaler with output (from VGA out) to the projector. The analog AND digital audio was connected directly to my surround processor, so I could get DD or a PCM signal if I chose, or just analog. This setup worked fine for live TV, etc, but I wanted better quality and the ability to record easily to the computer without taking up huge amounts of storage space (ala Virtual Dub). So I bought the PVR 250 and took out the older WinTV card with the hopes that the new card would offer superior picture, and an easy load on the PC for recording coupled with a software program like Sage.

#1 The video is delayed to the projector. It lags at least 3 seconds behind the audio when using Sage "live TV" option. There is no way to delay the audio to compensate. This isn't a problem when the audio is connected directly into the PVR 250 (because the audio is delayed at the same rate as the video), and the digital output on the sound card is selected on the surround processor. The problem is, I give up digital surround (DD), and any of the sound quality benefits from the direct digital connection to the surround processor. I suppose it is possible to run the digital out of the SAT box into the sound card (but I'd have to convert optical to coaxial), but is there a way for Sage to select this audio input as opposed to the one on the PVR 250 and would it be delayed the same amount??

#2 I don't have any external way (currently) to control the SAT box/VCR so I am stuck using the remote control to change channels on the SAT as opposed to letting Sage change the channels. The problem with this is the delay between my pushing the buttons on the remote and actually having an effect in the guide, etc on the SAT. I push down, and then a few seconds later I see the cursor move down in the guide--video delay problem again. Is there a way to eliminate this delay when I watch live TV? Dscaler doesn't work with the PVR 250 as far as I know.

#3 I notice that the EPG in Sage does not show what programs are in the PPV section of the SAT channel listing. This means I am still stuck using the guide from the actual SAT box to see the programming??

#4 I tried to do a little one touch recording. Sage looks like it is working. In fact, when I go into the directory where I have set it to put recordings, I can see the files. But how do I view them in Sage?? I went to library--empty. I went to the recordings area--empty. I went every place I could think of! Where are they?? Luckily I can play these files in Zoomplayer, but only if Sage is shutdown. I can play other files stored on the harddrive no problem, but none of the ones recorded by Sage! It seems like I should easily be able to access them from Sage, no?

#5 Do all the new PVR programs delay the video of live TV? It seems to me that I didn't have this problem while using Showshifter.

Would I have any better luck with plain ole Sage Recorder? I mainly need the VCR functionality anyway...

Thanks for the time,
Brian

[strohmrs]

I'm new to Sagetv but think I can help with a few of your questions. If I'm wrong about something I'm sure one of the experts will be willing to correct me!

#1 I think the encoder in the 250 may only accept a source from it's own input. I haven't tried it myself but you can select a different audio renderer under Detailed Setup, Audio tab, Audio Renderer. The SageTv manual doesn't say much about it so I don't know what affect it has.

#2 Dcaler (run separately) will not work because it looks for a YUV input instead of the MPEG stream from the 250. If you install and run the Elecard MPEG2 video decoder (free download) from your settings, you can select one of several Dscaler plugins.

Depending on your sat receiver you can use serial control or IR control from within Sage. I have an RCA receiver and use a serial cable for control. It took a while to get away from the normal urge to use the sat guide and instead let sage do the guide and channel changing. There isn't much of a delay this way with channel changing.

#3 You're right. I just added PPV to my channel list and the channels show up but do not show any info in the guide. I don't know, maybe it will add that info after the next daily EPG update?

#4 The one touch recordings I've noticed, only show up in the Sage Recordings area if you allow that recording to record all the way to the end of its time slot. If you change to another channel before if finishes, it will keep the fragment of the recording on the hard drive but Sage will ignore it.

#5 I can't answer that one. I've looked at several other offerings, but that was before I had any hardware cards to test them with. I believe though that any time you have to encode, save and then decode for timeshifting, there will be some delay. By default Sage is always recoding Live TV. I read somewhere that you can modify a setting in the Sage.Properties file so that Sage isn't always recording unless you tell it to. You lose the timeshifting with Live TV however.

Rick

[Fragmented_God]

Interesting. I was going to post on the same delay subject heh.

I have a WinTV PVR 350, which apparently is only supported by either Hauppauge's WinTV application and SageTV. Every other method of displaying the video from the card has failed (I've tried 4 or 5 other applications I think). The PVR cards seem to delay the video in order to ensure smooth playback, but the delay has a tendency to slowly increase. I tried using a program called audiomulch before and adding delay to the audiostream when I input it into my soundcard directly, but after about 20 minutes of watching the audio had become desynched again. This makes the card virtually useless for me, because at the moment to have colour video input on the composite/svideo input I have to use an older version of the drivers and software, which causes audio glitches (nothing I do can fix them.. with audiomulch running the delay on the soundcard input I STILL have the glitches when WinTV is open). This also means that I can't use my gamecube with the card, because there's at least a 2 second delay so I obviously can't play any games. Even Quake3 on dialup is better than that .

If anyone has any information about this I would REALLY appreciate it. If I can't find a way to remove this irritating delay then I'm going to have to replace the card or purchase an external box to convert the video signal from my gamecube to one that my monitor can handle, which also means that I can't record anything from it should I want to. I'm very disappointed in this card, but I'd rather find a way to make it work than try to replace it and potentially lose money re-selling it.

Thanks in advance.

[mikejaner]

You don't want to record sound through a diffferent device than the capture card for two reasons:
1:Playback with a software decoder varies due to scene complexity. I've noticed it will slip because of stuff like that. It's ususally a couple of frames every half hour or so, but you will notice it.

2:Multiplexing of the video and audio on the pvr 250/350 ensures the encoding of the audio is just right with the video. Relying on a soundcard like an audigy means you are hoping the system processor doesn't trip up on getting the audio over the bus in time to be encoded properly.

You are going to have to wait for an mpeg encoder card with digital inputs in order to get what your looking for.

mikejaner

[SHS]

#1 You must hook up the audio to PVR 250 line-input and no one going to support digital input recording and I do mean never you can thank DMCA for one.

#2 You need Actisys ACT IR-200L or USB-UIRT unless you have the rigth box RCA/Sony/Uniden DirecTV Satellite box thoses can have direct hook up by using Low Speed Data/Home Control/Serial Port but you need get some parts to hook it up.
Other then that you have manuel change channel with SAT remote.

#3 They nothing you can do about PPV guide you stuck using the guide from the actual SAT box to see the programming just like me and rest of the other folks out there becuase SAT compy dosen't give out it guide data for the PPV, Sports, etc guide.

#4 Sound you stop the recording in stead of record the full show how ever long it was.

#5 Showshifter is base YUV capture not MPEG capture.

Keep in mind that both Live Audio/Video feed are encoding in REALtime by a Hardware MPEG encoder at the same time

[Brian B]

Well, thanks for all the time to answer my questions.

Does Sage only work with the PVR 250/350 cards, or can it be used with other capture cards--I do like its interface best of all so far.

The answer may be to sell the PVR 250 and buy a cheaper software capture card that is newer than the WinTV FM and will give me better video performance, but allow me to use a program like Dscaler, so I can watch live TV without a video delay. Unless someone else knows of a PVR program that doesn't delay the video or will let me turn off the timeshifting capability AND have good video performance.

The performance with Showshifter wasn't that great, although I really couldn't get it working with my older card. Maybe I'll give it a shot with the newer card--whatever one I get.

Flyvideo? MSI TVAnywhere? Xcard? ????

I'll need a USB-UIRT to control my other audio stuff anyway, so where is the best place/only place to get one?


Thanks again,
Brian

[Mike Young]

The delay you are experiencing is most likely caused from your setup. I experienced delays like that when using Non DXVA enabled codec settings.
using Dscaler made things even worse.
This is the key to great video preformance...its not stressed enough in the documentation. I think DScaler and DXVA might be mutually exclusive, I didnt see what codec you are using but I would recommend the ATI cyberlink drivers.
I have a delay of less than a second when using this setup.
You defintely want to use the PVR - sound input.
I use the Actysis to control my Dish from Sage and a ATI remote wonder to control Sage, on my sage client I use IRMAN, girder with both.
hope this helps.

[Brian B]

I'm not using Dscaler options on Sage Tv. I had the Sonic Cinemaster video decoder selected and switched to the Cyberlink decoders as per your suggestion. This made no difference whatsoever in the delay. Am I missing something?

As previously noted, I don't have a problem using the PVR audio input for recording, only for watching due to lack of digital surround capability.

What are the benefits of Actysis over USB-UIRT and IRMAN. Several people with IRMAN experience have recommended USB-UIRT over it.

Thanks again,
Brian


No one has suggestions on other cards?

[Mike Young]

What is your CPU useage when watching LiveTV ? - if its over 30% youre probably going to have problems. -

what record rate are you using ? - if it is high, back it up to 1gb hr just to see if the delay changes.

I see what you mean, you want to use the live signal for the audio portion, but of course this will be out of sync with the video, sorry I missed that the first time!
I thought that you COULD select a different sound source-IN somewhere but maybe I was mistaken, I will check that tonight, I thought at one time I went straight through the Soundblaster from the DISH, but had the delay issue - and fixed it by changing the sound Delay in Sage. I dont think theres any way it would adjust for several seconds but thats a different issue, your delay shouldnt be that high.
I have noticed that the USB-UIRT is more popular, its probably more advanced technology than the IRMAN maybe someone knows the differences - I'm not sure if maybe USB-UIRT can control both your DISH from sage, and control sage (in otherwords has a reciever and a transmiter).
The IRMAN is a reciever only. The ACTYSIS is I think, a reciever/transmiter but of course you could only use it for one or the other. I can tell you it works flawlessly for changing channels on the DISH reciever. I'm pretty sure you can only have one of these devices controled directly from sage, you would want that to be what controls your DISH, then you would use girder to recieve the signals from the other and control SAGE.
Im not and expert on this, I'm just sharing what is working for me!
As far as cards go....I think the general consensus is the best available card is the one you have, there are people using other cards but I doubt if your preformance is not going to be helped by any of them.

[salsbst]

Whoa... the delay is normal for PVRs (SageTV, SnapStream, TiVO, ReplayTV). There is no such thing as truly live tv from a PVR. When you choose LiveTv, they record and then playback (on a slight delay). You definitely need to control your receiver via SageTV if you want to enjoy the application. I don't know of any PVR cards that support capturing digital audio.

[Mike Young]

Delay is normal yes, but I think he said he has a 3 second delay....thats just wrong. 3 second delay = something not configured right.

mike/

[Brian B]

How do I check on Win XP? I suppose it doesn't matter, because any sort of delay will prevent me from using the digital sound on Live TV viewing.

Someone suggested a TV Plugin ap for myHTPC that is not supposed to delay the picture, but does work with the PVR 250, but I haven't been able to get it to work yet.

Anyway, it is starting to look like I might be starting over.

Brian

[Brian B]

Mike-

CPU is less than 30% (usually mid 20s). Delay is just over 2 seconds from what I can tell.

Still trying to get the other ap to function. Gonna update the drivers.

Brian