REQUEST: Back button combo that works with menu hierarchy

[debennett2]

I have requested this elsewhere and the thread was closed so I will start a new thread. I would like to see a button available on my remote (sendmessage or keyboard shortcut would be nice) that would allow be to go back in the menu hierarchy and not "back" like the "alt-left" or sendmessage 75 does presently (like a web browser....going to the last visited page).

This doesn't immediately stand out as an issue until you use the program guide to channel surf....going into the program guide, watching tv, program guide, tv, etc. Now to get back to the main menu, you are either forced to have a "home" key on your remote or the keyboard nearby. Those of us using Sage (TV or MC) merely for the TV functions and maybe another UI for the rest end up having a keyboard nearby for the home key alone (I am not the only one Andy and I'm certainly not the only one that thinks you have issues with deleting posts and moving threads).

What does the rest of the world think?

[jbarr]

I do agree that the "back" button sometimes does not behave as I expect it to. There are many times that I think to myself, how do I move back to where I just was? Do I use the left arrow? Do I use the Back button? There is some logic to its use (as you said, it's more of a "last page visited" button) so it does do what it's intended to do, but yes, it would be nice if there were an easy way to move back through menu hierarchies. Maybe that's why all of the stock UI pages have a "back to xxxx" entry at the bottom?

And I do see why you would say that you are being 'forced to have a "home" key on your remote'--you would simply like to "move back" through a menu, regardless of how you got to that menu, and currently, the only way is to go home and then re-navigate. Unfortunately, this may require a UI rework to implement.

So how would we implement a "back" function as you describe? Would it replace the current "back" function?. After thinking about how this could be implemented, I don't think this would be easy at all. Intuitively, this seems like it might be a very difficult feature to add into the current UI.

That said, I will admit that I don't think that SageTV's menus really are that deep, and if you do customize them (using the Customisable Menu plugin) you can make the UI much more efficient for your specific usage patterns, reducing the numbers of levels you have to traverse.

[debennett2]

I've already had all my 3 polls edited and one removed in an hour flat. All I have heard from others I pal around with on different forums and whatnot that are familiar with Sage is how every post gets moved or edited and how impossible this forum is to be productive. I won't point fingers as it could only result in a post removal but you know who you are and so do we. That is...until this post is removed.

[Opus4]

I removed your thread where you attacked me once again as a stronger message to you to shape up around here. To tell you the truth, I don't know why anyone replies to you, since unless they agree with you, they will get attacked by you sooner or later.

I'm not worried about your above complaint because anyone who has been around here long enough knows that criticisms and complaints don't get removed unless the person gets out of hand and violates the forum rules, particularly item #1.

And, rather than trying to make the 3rd choice more clear for other forum users, I returned it to its original answer... even though it doesn't seem to mean anything since your post already explains what you are talking about.

- Andy

[Razillian]

How about a "NO, I don't like this option" instead of skewing the wording on your poll to make it seem like you are against any option if you don't agree with the one you propose?

[gplasky]

Dan

I see you haven't changed. This is so reminescent of your threads over at Meedio, Meedios, BTV, TVedia, etc. it's like deja vu. You've done it every time.

It could have helped if you had made it perfectly clear when you started this critque (not now-when you started many threads/posts ago) is that you're trying to use 2 products for your TV and Media needs. Knowing this could have helped people understand your feelings about having to map another key on the remote. You're also basing your opinions on using one product that for you, you think it must be doing everything right and how if another product doesn't fit for you it must be wrong.

I think it may just be a record for you to piss off a lot of people in a forum in about 4 posts. (This and your other threads.) But hey-this is you. Your track record is obvious from just about any other media-center/pvr forum. (I listed the ones I know you were on-there's more)and the other more obvious thing: You never learn.

For me it's obvious that left arrow is not going to work in the Guide. There are 2 functions that work a little differently. It would be nice to be consistent but it's not a deal breaker. You can't make everyone happy. And to change it is not going to make everyone happy. As far as I'm concerend I have a "back" button that goes "back". And it goes back either way I want it to. No sense in voting here.


Gerry

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by debennett2

I've already had all my 3 polls edited and one removed in an hour flat.

Maybe you should try BeyondTVs forums, where they just delete any posts/threads that reflect negatively on BTV.

All I have heard from others I pal around with on different forums and whatnot that are familiar with Sage is how every post gets moved or edited and how impossible this forum is to be productive.

Maybe you should take a look back at who you hang out with. Posts are almost never deleted on these forums, and thread aren't moved "willy-nilly".

The only times posts are deleted is when they are militantly inflamatory, like most of yours.

[debennett2]

Originally Posted by gplasky

Dan

I see you haven't changed. This is so reminescent of your threads over at Meedio, Meedios, BTV, TVedia, etc. it's like deja vu. You've done it every time.

It could have helped if you had made it perfectly clear when you started this critque (not now-when you started many threads/posts ago) is that you're trying to use 2 products for your TV and Media needs. Knowing this could have helped people understand your feelings about having to map another key on the remote. You're also basing your opinions on using one product that for you, you think it must be doing everything right and how if another product doesn't fit for you it must be wrong.

I think it may just be a record for you to piss off a lot of people in a forum in about 4 posts. (This and your other threads.) But hey-this is you. Your track record is obvious from just about any other media-center/pvr forum. (I listed the ones I know you were on-there's more)and the other more obvious thing: You never learn.

For me it's obvious that left arrow is not going to work in the Guide. There are 2 functions that work a little differently. It would be nice to be consistent but it's not a deal breaker. You can't make everyone happy. And to change it is not going to make everyone happy. As far as I'm concerend I have a "back" button that goes "back". And it goes back either way I want it to. No sense in voting here.


Gerry

What can I say, I have very strong opinions. The opinions I have that ARE strong get vocalized as such. When I am wrong, I admit it but I can't site once instance where my opinion has been perceived overbearing (as these ones seem to be) where I haven't been right in the end.

I know I come across as pompous in written word but I DO think about these things in great depth as intuitive usability is an almost passion of mine. If usability is NOT a passion of someones (which seems to be the case with those that argue) then of course they are going to argue.

My request, no matter how you look at it would affect no one negatively and a great deal many of people positively.

I'm not worried about your above complaint because anyone who has been around here long enough knows that criticisms and complaints don't get removed unless the person gets out of hand and violates the forum rules, particularly item #1.

So you are basically telling me that you never remove things just because you don't agree with them? Or that you move things to the wrong section because you don't understand them?

My gripe about the rec icon not only was moved, but when I made a poll about it again this morning, THAT was removed.

Your software isn't free, your support is mostly from your forum and the only way to get a developer's attention (at least mostly) is through feature requests and polls. If you cripple your access to the forum by micromanaging it, you are doing your customers as well as your product a disservice.

Everyone here has the right to argue with me and dislike me (I don't know why someone would base their opinions on someone's rants about a software product but ok) but let the users discuss. If someone's feelings are hurt a little, who cares?! No one has been profane or threatening.

[ke6guj]

I've started to respond to this post a couple times, and each time I delete it before posting. Lets see if I can get one out that is acceptable.

I think I'll skip the entire portion on opinions except to say that I think the advice that "You get more flies with honey..." may be usefull here.

As for the Rec Icon thread being moved, you stated it was a custom UI in post #4, so it got moved to the customization forum. Later on you clarified that you misspoke, and that it was regarding the default UI. Perhaps if you asked, it could have been moved back to the original forum. But, what is the big deal, moving the thread didn't kill it with lack of views and once people realized you were talking about the default UI, you started to get help/info on it even though it may have been in the "wrong" section.

I didn't see the original poll so I can't comment on it.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by debennett2

My request, no matter how you look at it would affect no one negatively and a great deal many of people positively.

How do you figure "a great deal many of people"? I don't see many!

Originally Posted by debennett2

So you are basically telling me that you never remove things just because you don't agree with them?

You clearly don't read these forums very widely. Very rarely does someone get annoying enough to get threads closed, and disagreements are fine and common. I don't see many people coming forward to support you, do you? Or is it the silent "a great deal many of people" again?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by debennett2

What can I say, I have very strong opinions. The opinions I have that ARE strong get vocalized as such. When I am wrong, I admit it but I can't site once instance where my opinion has been perceived overbearing (as these ones seem to be) where I haven't been right in the end.

I know I come across as pompous in written word but I DO think about these things in great depth as intuitive usability is an almost passion of mine. If usability is NOT a passion of someones (which seems to be the case with those that argue) then of course they are going to argue.

My request, no matter how you look at it would affect no one negatively and a great deal many of people positively.



So you are basically telling me that you never remove things just because you don't agree with them? Or that you move things to the wrong section because you don't understand them?

He's saying that contrary to what you claim, posts aren't removed just because the poster disagrees with something, they're only removed if they violate the rules.

My gripe about the rec icon not only was moved,

As stated, it was moved because the primary complaint in the first post was about the "recording now" dialog, which is a customization.

...but when I made a poll about it again this morning, THAT was removed.

Apparently the wording in that thread violated the rules.

Your software isn't free,

This is a user forum, it's not "our" software.

...your support is mostly from your forum...

While a great resource, the forum is NOT an official support outlet, the only official support outlet is to contact Sage directly:
http://www.sage.tv/request.html

...and the only way to get a developer's attention (at least mostly) is through feature requests and polls. If you cripple your access to the forum by micromanaging it, you are doing your customers as well as your product a disservice.

I don't think I've seen anyone else have the kind of problems with moving threads as you. This forum seems to work very well, most posts aren't moved, or if they are, it's helpful. Most people get answers very quickly.

Everyone here has the right to argue with me and dislike me (I don't know why someone would base their opinions on someone's rants about a software product but ok) but let the users discuss.

People's opinions are based on what information they have. You might be the greatest person in the world, and you might be incredibly smart. But here on this forum, the only information we have is what you post. And your posts come off as arrogant and condescending.

When you completely ignore everyones suggestions, make a huge issue out of little things, and attack those who disagree with you, what are we supposed to think of you?

If someone's feelings are hurt a little, who cares?!

You should, because if you come off in an offensive manner (like you do) you're far less likely to get useful comments.

Seriously, take a step back and look at your own posts, try to understand why they're being received the way they are. Any valid points you have are being buried by your apparent attitude. Tone down the rhetoric a bit and you might actually get some useful responses.

[debennett2]

I will try to one it down. I would like to ask this though:

If you are one of those who doesn't need this "back" option, can you at least see where it can be needed? If not even that, can you at least understand that it on no way would affect you otherwise.

I think the poll is speaking for itself so far. I am getting a lot of arguments against it and probably would have those who have polled for it speak with me on this if I hadn't had the tone I had...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by debennett2

If you are one of those who doesn't need this "back" option,

I see what you're asking for, but IMO, it's already there, probably 95% of the time I use "Back" to go up a level, the other 5% of the time it comes in handy to jump back to where I was directly vs having to traverse the menu structure (ie getting back to setup if I'm messing with things and want to see what the effect was).

can you at least see where it can be needed?

I can see why you're asking for it, but I disagree that it's "needed". I think you've been given a number of (very good IMO) suggestions to satisfy your concerns. True the suggestions aren't (always) built in, but again, that's really part of the beauty of Sage, if you don't like something, change it, or odds are, somebody already has a "fix".

If not even that, can you at least understand that it on no way would affect you otherwise.

I will use that statement to illustrate the point about your tone burying your points:

Yes I can see how, an "Up", shall we call it, command would be appreciated by some, and yes, I can see how having "Up" configured to always move up a level (where there is a true parent) would be appreciated, and yes, I agree that it would not necessarily change current functionality.

However, please understand this: Your blind insistence that the current functionality is "obviously" wrong and your assertions that anyone who disagrees with that opinion is somehow uncaring or ignorant has completely buried that point.

Now, a suggestion, the Left key/command in Sage currently does exactly what you want back to do in probably 90% of places, the only exception is places where the current screen is navigable in two dimensions (eg program guide), so to a large extent the functionality you want is already there.

I think the poll is speaking for itself so far. I am getting a lot of arguments against it and probably would have those who have polled for it speak with me on this if I hadn't had the tone I had...

About 1 in three is hardly the overwhelming majority you would have implied. Oh, and the wording of your poll is very bad if you really want an objective measure, the way it's worded it's hard for people who think "No it's not needed" to vote".

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by debennett2

If you are one of those who doesn't need this "back" option, can you at least see where it can be needed? ...

Honestly No, I don't see what problems you are having. I even followed your situation you described, and it seemed to work correctly for me. It may be that I have used Sage for so long that I don't even notice the "problems" and have trained myself to work around them.

When I went over to SageMC, I worked with flachbar on some navigation issues I had. He worked with me on them, adding them into SageMC. It took a couple builds for it to get to the point where I could use it full-time, with me commenting about the changes after each build.

If not even that, can you at least understand that it on no way would affect you otherwise.

I can't agree to that statement. Any changes to Sage may affect me depending on how it is implemented.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by debennett2

I think the poll is speaking for itself so far.

Anything the poll says is meaningless. As I write it has a total of 17 votes, 8 of them abstentions, out of an active board population of 739. Those 17 are not a representative sample of the board regulars, who are themselves not a representative sample of Sage users in general. So it's simply not statistically valid to conclude anything at all from these numbers about what Sage users want. Forums polls are for entertainment, not for serious data collection.

[debennett2]

Anything the poll says is meaningless. As I write it has a total of 17 votes, 8 of them abstentions, out of an active board population of 739. Those 17 are not a representative sample of the board regulars, who are themselves not a representative sample of Sage users in general. So it's simply not statistically valid to conclude anything at all from these numbers about what Sage users want. Forums polls are for entertainment, not for serious data collection.

Really? I find that polls can be very useful. If you want something you vote for it. If you think it is going to effect you negatively, you don't vote for it. Yes, polls are "fun" but they also get those less-than-vocal users to at least share their opinions without necessarily needing to post and try to one up the next guy intellectually...which is an unfortunate part of this forum in particular....I'm sure a lot due to my previous "tone".

Now, a suggestion, the Left key/command in Sage currently does exactly what you want back to do in probably 90% of places, the only exception is places where the current screen is navigable in two dimensions (eg program guide), so to a large extent the functionality you want is already there.

I'm glad you can see how this COULD be needed, but, please understand that the ONLY reason I brought this up was because of the issues when dealing with the program guide. I don't want to assume things but it seems as thought there are more people using sage as a recorder more than as both a recorder and livetv viewer. Am I wrong? I may fit that bill to a point but I still view livetv quite a bit as well.

[Razillian]

I'm definitely one of those people that use Sage as a recorder and not live TV watcher. But on occasion I will flip over to the program guide and select a show to watch, so I understand what you are talking about with the back command. However in my instance I have nielm's multifunction stop STVi loaded, so I just hit the stop button and will go back to the program guide from live TV, and hit the stop button and will go back to the main menu from the program guide.

That's the option I chose to load into my STV (more for stopping shows and movies than live TV stuff) and it works great for me with live TV and the program guide. I don't need another/different back button as a result, and at this point adding one might cause something that I am used to on my sage box to change, which might cause bad things with the girlfriend.

But that is one of the best things I like about Sage, and why I will argue against almost any additional options in the core that are ease of use/cosmetic in nature. If I want to change something along those lines I can import a STVi, or mod my menus to fit my needs, or anyother number of things to get my Sage box to behave in a manner that suits me. And guess what, it doesn't affect your Sage or anyone elses one tiny bit, not even so much as a simple 32 bit variable (they do add up over time).

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by debennett2

Really? I find that polls can be very useful. If you want something you vote for it.

They can be useful, but when they are worded as badly as yours then I'm not
likely to vote on them at all. If you want a poll to be taken seriously, at least try to word it properly. As it is, I'm sure most would take a look and not vote, because they aren't covered by any of the options.

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by Razillian

I'm definitely one of those people that use Sage as a recorder and not live TV watcher. But on occasion I will flip over to the program guide and select a show to watch, so I understand what you are talking about with the back command. However in my instance I have nielm's multifunction stop STVi loaded, so I just hit the stop button and will go back to the program guide from live TV, and hit the stop button and will go back to the main menu from the program guide.

That's the option I chose to load into my STV (more for stopping shows and movies than live TV stuff) and it works great for me with live TV and the program guide. I don't need another/different back button as a result, and at this point adding one might cause something that I am used to on my sage box to change, which might cause bad things with the girlfriend.

But that is one of the best things I like about Sage, and why I will argue against almost any additional options in the core that are ease of use/cosmetic in nature. If I want to change something along those lines I can import a STVi, or mod my menus to fit my needs, or anyother number of things to get my Sage box to behave in a manner that suits me. And guess what, it doesn't affect your Sage or anyone elses one tiny bit, not even so much as a simple 32 bit variable (they do add up over time).

Razillian, you nailed it. I have it set up that way also, and have no problems. But I do see the point of this thread. Simply pit, there are some "inconsistencies" in the UI that at first may not seem to be intuitive. In the "What's so bad about the UI?" thread, some people are asking that specific functionality in rolled into the core while others are content with the current core, and are very comfortable with using plugins to enhance/improve the core. I agree with you (and as I said in the other thread) if there is a fundamental problem with core function, then that needs to be addressed ASASP, but the general concensus seems to be that if the core is stable and works well as advertised (and of course, the word "well" is what's causing the debate) then leave enhancements up to third-party plugins.

[BobPhoenix]

I voted "What is this" because of your wording. I would have picked "NO I don't want that" but that wasn't an option. I like for SageTV to have new options but it would not be useful for me to have this feature. If it was an option in Sage then that would be great. I don't object to it being available. But the way the poll was worded the only option I could choose was either to not vote or vote the way I did.