Is SageTV Ready for me?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mkruse

Unfortunately the requirements page doesn't mention playback! The way it sounds there, my system would be fine, right?

To quote the requirements page:

For HDTV Recording: 3Ghz processor or higher or a slower processor in combination with a video card utilizing DXVA support and using a decoder which supports DXVA

So given the new FCC rulings, will that mean that the current analog SD cards will become really cheap?

They already are. It's possible they'll get more expensive as supply dries up (I wouldn't worry about that for a while though).

I have no desire for digital signals, since I'm using analog cable and OTA HD. Damn the FCC.

OTA HD is a digital signal.

Okay, if the machine isn't good enough to playback, then what's the point?

Use it as a backend server

If I were to give it a try, what is the best/fastest SD card to get of the list of options that they provide on this site?

The nVidia DualTV cards seem to be the highest regarded at the moment.

Also I haven't found much info on DVD playback. It requires a separate DVD software player, correct?

You need DVD decoders (like the nVidia PureVideo DVD Decoder). With appropriate decoders, Sage can play DVDs just fine.

And will my machine be able to handle DVD playback from HD? That is actually the #1 priority for me, as I already have two tivo's. I just want a networked file-based DVD player more than anything!

Should be able to, actually if that's your priority, you really might want to look into the Extender and just use that 1.3G as the backend server (note that 1.3 isn't fast enough for HD via the MVP because the server has to transcode the HD to SD).

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by mkruse

I have a 1.3ghz Athlon machine with 512MB of RAM. It's an older machine, but right now it's just sitting on my network as a file server. Would this be fast enough to run SageTV if I get some tuner cards? If not HD, then at least SD?

Your 1.3ghz Athlon machine won't be fast enough to do everything in SageTV.

As Stanger said, use it as a server. For a prefered setup of SageTV, if you plan to distribute the content to multiple rooms, then you should set up a server machine. All this machine does is record, store, and serve data to other computers and devices in your house. And this server can be stored "in the closet" or somewhere isolated because it tend to be noisy with all the harddrives in it. Plus all the cabling and mess can be hidden away from your main TV area. Your 1.3ghz Athlon machine can be this server machine. It should be fast enough.

As mentioned before, when it comes to HD playback, you need quite a beast of a machine to be able to handle it smoothly. I suggest you just stick with SD right now. Buy SageTV, one nVidia dualTV or Hauppauge PVR-500, and a wired MVP extender (buy from SageTV store and it includes an extender license). The wired MVP Extender works very well for SD playback. Thats all you need. All those should set you back around $300-$350. And that should get you started recording and watching TV.

Like me and most folks here, wait for the HD Extender to come out for HD playback. By then you should have good knowledge of SageTV when upgrading to HD stuffs.

[Jesse]

Hi,

To quote the requirements page:

Quote:
For HDTV Recording: 3Ghz processor or higher or a slower processor in combination with a video card utilizing DXVA support and using a decoder which supports DXVA

I think that sage has a kind of typo here. I believe that "For HDTV Recording" should actually say "For HDTV Recordings." It has been my understanding that recording OTA HDTV is just a matter of writing .ts files and that this takes no more processor power than making SD recordings with a hardware encoder. It certainly is no problem for my server to record two HD shows and two SD shows at the same time. Before it was a dedicated server I would often record four shows and play back a recording simultaneously. In short, it should not take much of a machine at all to do both SD (with a hardware encoder) and HD recording.


Jesse

[mkruse]

Ah, I think I just had a revelation...

So I can setup Sage TV on my server in the closet and NOT use the video output from the machine itself? Rather, just get an Extender for every room that wants to actually view content? For some reason I was thinking that the server had to actually have video output ability. As you guys say, I would need to do this to get HD playback right now, but I can live without that at the moment.

So my short-term plan could be:
1) Buy Sage, put it on my existing machine, and hook it to my router
2) Buy an nVidia DualTV card and hook in my analog cable
3) Buy a media Extender and hook it to my TV
4) Begin playback!

Then if I buy the PlaceShifter option as well, I could watch content on my laptop as well, or even from a remote computer? That would be a huge bonus for me.

Okay, so this sounds do-able. Just a few lingering questions:

1) Do the Extenders handle anamorphic dvd content correctly? Can I watch widescreen dvd's on my widescreen tv in SD?

2) Does the wireless extender (on a g network) have enough bandwidth to play SD content and DVD's? (Obviously sound would be stereo not DD, but that's fine for now).

3) Can I also play music files (mp3) through the extender, and is the sound quality acceptable?

4) Do the extender boxes have any intelligence in them or do they just stream content from the server? I see a list of formats supported, but that implies that the box is doing the decoding? If that's the case, is there any load on the server other than just streaming the file content?

Thanks guys, you have all been great in answering my continued questions!

[kpsmith]

Originally Posted by mkruse

I have a 1.3ghz Athlon machine with 512MB of RAM. It's an older machine, but right now it's just sitting on my network as a file server. Would this be fast enough to run SageTV if I get some tuner cards? If not HD, then at least SD?

Personally I wouldn't run a Sage box with anything under 1 GB of RAM. I had some issues regarding recording and playback with less memeory especially when I added a second tuner.

Also, That processor is pretty slow for a SAGE box. I'd again recommend having a NAS for file storage and make a main Sage Box with nice processor specs and Video card for SD and HD. I have no experience with HD though.

The NAS box should be ok with the slower processor and this pulls all the hard drive heat away from your main sage system. Granted, it makes everything a little more complicated though.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mkruse

Ah, I think I just had a revelation...

So I can setup Sage TV on my server in the closet and NOT use the video output from the machine itself? Rather, just get an Extender for every room that wants to actually view content? For some reason I was thinking that the server had to actually have video output ability. As you guys say, I would need to do this to get HD playback right now, but I can live without that at the moment.

So my short-term plan could be:
1) Buy Sage, put it on my existing machine, and hook it to my router
2) Buy an nVidia DualTV card and hook in my analog cable
3) Buy a media Extender and hook it to my TV
4) Begin playback!

Pretty much.

Then if I buy the PlaceShifter option as well, I could watch content on my laptop as well, or even from a remote computer? That would be a huge bonus for me.

Two thing to consider, Extenders and Placeshifters share the same license, so you can use an extender license for a Placeshifter or vice versa. Extender/Placeshifter licenses are "per seat", not per device, so you only need enough licenses for the number of Placeshifters+Extenders you will be using at the same time (1 license will work for either, but you need two if you want to run an Extender and Placeshifter at the same time).

SageClient is more fully featured than Placeshifter, so if you're going to do any serious viewing on the laptop you might want to go with Client over Placeshifter. However for just occasional/casual viewing, Placeshifter would be great.

Okay, so this sounds do-able. Just a few lingering questions:

1) Do the Extenders handle anamorphic dvd content correctly? Can I watch widescreen dvd's on my widescreen tv in SD?

They handle it correctly on my 4:3 TV, I don't recall if you can set the extender to "anamorphic" or not.

2) Does the wireless extender (on a g network) have enough bandwidth to play SD content and DVD's?

IMO, don't go wireless for video unless there's no other option. If you can run a cable, do it. Wireless, while theoretically having more than enough bandwidth for even HD, isn't reliable enough for even SD.

Note that YMMV, some people have solid WiFi networks that work fine for streaming SD, other's can't make it work to save their soul. Basically wired is a sure thing, wireless is somewhat of a gamble.

(Obviously sound would be stereo not DD, but that's fine for now).

Actually the new extenders (with digital out) can pass DD/DTS AFAIK.

3) Can I also play music files (mp3) through the extender, and is the sound quality acceptable?

I believe you can, I've never tried so I can't comment on the quality (other than mp3s aren't acceptable to me in the first place).

4) Do the extender boxes have any intelligence in them or do they just stream content from the server?

They draw the UI and do MPEG-2 decoding. The UI processing is done on the server, and any (supported) formats other than MPEG-2 are transcoded on the server into MPEG-2 for the MVP.

I see a list of formats supported, but that implies that the box is doing the decoding?

Yes, for MPEG-2, ie DVDs, recordings, etc.

If that's the case, is there any load on the server other than just streaming the file content?

There's a bit of load doing the UI processing, and some load if you're viewing non-MPEG-2 content that's being transcoded. Attempting to view HD will kill the server as the transcoding of HD is some serious heavy lifting.

FWIW, I run an MVP off a Athlon XP 1800+ (1.5GHz) and with the latest Sage and Java 6, performance is quite good. Not quite as snappy as my HTPC, probably on par with my Dish Network satellite box.

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

For HD, from what I read about HD, just make sure your PC hardware is powerful enough to playback the HD content for your HDTV projector. How powerful? What ever fastest speed you can afford in terms of mainly your CPU and Video card.

For HD you want the fastest motherboard you can afford as well. Try to get at least a 1000MHz FSB. Many of the newer 1333's are available for well under $200. If you're putting together something from scratch, seriously consider a quad core processor if you plan to include several tuners--and who wouldn't?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

For HD you want the fastest motherboard you can afford as well. Try to get at least a 1000MHz FSB. Many of the newer 1333's are available for well under $200. If you're putting together something from scratch, seriously consider a quad core processor if you plan to include several tuners--and who wouldn't?

For a client, I've got a P4 Northwood (533 FSB IIRC) and an AGP Geforce 6800, plays MPEG-2 HD just great.

For a server I've got an Athlon XP 1800+ (266 FSB IIRC), the only thing it has trouble with is transcoding HD to my extender.

Super-fast FSBs are unnecessary for servers, very little goes across the FSB when recording digital programming, it's just written to disc. There's no heavy processing, <20Mbps per recording. Also you really don't need much horsepower either, again, very little processing is done on digital recordings.

If you're going to have full PC clients, there's little sense in building a massive server. Now if you're planning on running extenders, it's a bit different because the UI is processed on the server (drawn on the client), it may involve transcoding or the like. Then it makes sense to have power on the server, but you really don't need it both places.

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by stanger89

For a client, I've got a P4 Northwood (533 FSB IIRC) and an AGP Geforce 6800, plays MPEG-2 HD just great.

For a server I've got an Athlon XP 1800+ (266 FSB IIRC), the only thing it has trouble with is transcoding HD to my extender.

Super-fast FSBs are unnecessary for servers, very little goes across the FSB when recording digital programming, it's just written to disc. There's no heavy processing, <20Mbps per recording. Also you really don't need much horsepower either, again, very little processing is done on digital recordings.

If you're going to have full PC clients, there's little sense in building a massive server. Now if you're planning on running extenders, it's a bit different because the UI is processed on the server (drawn on the client), it may involve transcoding or the like. Then it makes sense to have power on the server, but you really don't need it both places.

You can certainly build an HD PVR with older, slower components which will work just fine. But the point of having a PVR is to record whatever you want whenever you want. If you try playing an HD program while recording others, you may discover you don't have enough horsepower. Most people nowadays want at least 3 or 4 tuners. Using an antenna makes this more critical because networks broadcast all their primetime programs simultaneously, and that's also when most people want to watch TV. That being the case, you want to build a system with all the power you can afford.

[briands]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

You can certainly build an HD PVR with older, slower components which will work just fine. But the point of having a PVR is to record whatever you want whenever you want. If you try playing an HD program while recording others, you may discover you don't have enough horsepower. Most people nowadays want at least 3 or 4 tuners. Using an antenna makes this more critical because networks broadcast all their primetime programs simultaneously, and that's also when most people want to watch TV. That being the case, you want to build a system with all the power you can afford.

I think you missed stangers point... recording HD is NOT processor intensive, no matter how many streams. There is no encoding involved, it is only writing streams to disk.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

You can certainly build an HD PVR with older, slower components which will work just fine. But the point of having a PVR is to record whatever you want whenever you want. If you try playing an HD program while recording others, you may discover you don't have enough horsepower. Most people nowadays want at least 3 or 4 tuners. Using an antenna makes this more critical because networks broadcast all their primetime programs simultaneously, and that's also when most people want to watch TV. That being the case, you want to build a system with all the power you can afford.

Regarding the FSB issue, and bandwidth in general.
HD is <= 19.4Mbps.
100TX lan is < 100Mbps (5x HD)
Hard Drives are < 60MB/sec or 480Mbps (or >20x HD)
GigE is < 1000Mbps (or 50x HD)
PCI bus is < 1000Mbps (or 50x HD)
PCIe bus is <2.5Gbps (or 125x HD)
Your typical FSB is well over any of these, 8+ Gbps, even the lowly 133MHz bus of old is capable of over 4Gbps.

It's a matter of application. Purely from a recording perspective, HD is trivial. Just look at the system requirements for the MyHD, with it you can do HD in some surprising systems. If you're having trouble recording HD, it's almost certainly not a CPU power, or CPU bandwidth limitation, one needs only look above to see where the bottlenecks are. They are in the lan and the HDD.

Now playback is an entirely different matter. There you need a decent amount of CPU power, but a good graphics card is more important.

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Regarding the FSB issue, and bandwidth in general.
HD is <= 19.4Mbps.
100TX lan is < 100Mbps (5x HD)
Hard Drives are < 60MB/sec or 480Mbps (or >20x HD)
GigE is < 1000Mbps (or 50x HD)
PCI bus is < 1000Mbps (or 50x HD)
PCIe bus is <2.5Gbps (or 125x HD)
Your typical FSB is well over any of these, 8+ Gbps, even the lowly 133MHz bus of old is capable of over 4Gbps.

It's a matter of application. Purely from a recording perspective, HD is trivial. Just look at the system requirements for the MyHD, with it you can do HD in some surprising systems. If you're having trouble recording HD, it's almost certainly not a CPU power, or CPU bandwidth limitation, one needs only look above to see where the bottlenecks are. They are in the lan and the HDD.

Now playback is an entirely different matter. There you need a decent amount of CPU power, but a good graphics card is more important.

When you're recording several HD programs while simultaneously playing another, you need all the I/O capacity you can muster. Fast disks alone won't cut it. This is experience talking. Hypothetical throughput based on statistics doesn't tell the whole story. Trust me, I've been there. You can take the fastest disk drives on the market and plug them into a 133MHz bus and you'll be I/O bound in no time. It will work fine recording one or two HD programs, but after that you'll hit the wall.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

You can take the fastest disk drives on the market and plug them into a 133MHz bus and you'll be I/O bound in no time.

And how is CPU power or FSB bandwidth going to help you if your "bound" by the PCI bus?

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by stanger89

And how is CPU power or FSB bandwidth going to help you if your "bound" by the PCI bus?

Hey, you're the one who claimed a 133MHz FSB would work just fine. What are you doing, twisting the subject to confuse me? Hey, all I'm saying is that there is a whole lot of data being moved when several HD programs are being recorded and that the more throughput you have the better. Whether that requires using SCSI hard drives, PCIE tuners and video cards, or magic incantations, I'm all for it. You just can't have too much power!