Is SageTV Ready for me?

[mkruse]

You must see posts like this quite often, I apologize!

I want a one-box solution. I have two tivo's, a home theater setup, 4 tv's around the house, dvd's ripped to two computers and mp3's on a third. I'm desperately seeking a cohesive solution. I'm quite knowledgeable about HT and computers, as well as PVR's (I bought a tivo the day they were released - 14hrs@$500 - ouch!). But I have a family and other things to do, so I don't like to tinker too much.

Is SageTV what I need? Here are my requirements:

1) HDTV support on my home theater projector, with component connectors

2) 1 OTA HD tuner and two SD tuners. (I currently have a Samsung PTA HD Tuner, but I guess that will go to waste...)

3) Video playable on any TV in the house, from the same source (I hate having two tivos rather than one consolidated media list!).

4) DVD's playable in any room from files ripped to hard drive, maintaining all features and audio (Dolby Digital minimum, DTS support preferred)

5) Pictures, MP3's, and video files playable in any room

From what I understand, I think SageTV can meet all those needs. Correct?

So, next comes performance. I find it quite surprising that there is no "known good" hardware list on this site that I could find. Can I buy a bundled hardware+software solution that will be known to support the functionality I desire? It's not like I can return the thing if it stutters with HD. If I take the plunge and buy a new HTPC for SageTV and then HD is unwatchable, I've wasted a lot of money!

If I throw $1500 or so at brand new hardware, will I get everything I need to meet my requirements? If so, what should I buy? Should I buy a pre-built PC and just add stuff or buy components? I've built PC's in the past and even installed linux a few times, but I'd want to stick with XP and the simplest path possible. I hate tinkering with hardware these days. I have no time.

I have a 1.3ghz athlon sitting around with a super-fast 18gb scsi drive in it. I suppose I could use that as the OS shell but replace the MB, no? Then throw in some drives and a fast new mb/cpu and tuner cards?

I've read a number of posts here, but I guess I'm wanting to know for sure:

1) Will SageTV fit my needs or not?

2) Are there hardware bundles available that include everything I need? Or at least a list of the best hardware options that are known to work?

I wish I could just plop down $1500 and buy a SageTV box all ready to go. Take it home, plug it in, and have it work. Someone should get into that business

Thanks!

Matt Kruse

[sainswor99]

1) HDTV support on my home theater projector, with component connectors

This is the one thing on your list that would make me hesitate; I don't think any PC-based PVR solution is rock-solid when it comes to HD. I don't have HD in my setup, but have had only minor problems with SDTV. I think others have reported continual tweaking issues with HD on Sage, but there may be a silent majority out there who have plugged everything in, and had no issues whatsoever. I just think HD support is in its infancy right now.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Sage (or any other PVR solution) is ready for HD at this point. Wait 6 months and the landscape could change pretty significantly, however.

My .02,

Stu

[GKusnick]

I think it's overstating things a bit to say that Sage is not ready for HD. My Sage HD setup works fine, and so do many others. I'm aware that there are a number of people with HD playback issues, and I'm not looking to reopen that debate here; there are plenty of existing threads on that. But for many of us it does just work.

On the issue of a one-box solution: this phrase has come up before, but I think you must mean something different. I don't see how you're going to feed five TVs in five different rooms from one box. At a minimum you're going to need a full PC running SageTV in your home theater, plus four extenders for the other four TVs. (That's assuming they're SD TVs. If they're HD, there is no HD extender yet, so you'll either have to wait for that or put PC clients next to those TVs.) Or alternatively, a Sage server in a media closet somewhere, a PC client in your HT, and extenders or PC clients elsewhere. Also be aware that HD and SD tuners come in both internal PCI and external USB forms. In some cases (such as a shortage of PCI slots), external tuners are more convenient. Do those count against the one-box requirement?

For the rest of it, you're essentially correct. All the recording is done by the SageTV server, and all the media content is stored there. All the clients connect by LAN to that server and stream their content from there.

SageTV LLC does not sell PC hardware, just SageTV software, extenders, and some tuner card bundles. There's been talk of offering Sage-branded turnkey systems at some point in the future, but nothing concrete along those lines yet. There may be third-party resellers out there building preconfigured SageTV systems now, but if so I'm not aware of any.

[mkruse]

Yeah, by "one box" solution I mean that everything is contained in and controlled by a single box. I know that to play content on other tv's I will need the extenders, and that's fine. Lack of HD extenders doesn't matter for me right now, since I only have one HD display.

Do you have any idea what is different about your hardware that allows your HD to play with no problems?

[GKusnick]

To be honest, since mine works pretty well I haven't made a study of other people's HD issues to know what's different about their systems. I can give you a rundown of my system specs:

Asus A8N-SLI mobo
Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (2GHz)
2GB RAM (Crucial Tech)
Seagate 80GB SATA boot drive
Seagate 400GB and 750GB SATA recording drives, formatted with 64K blocks
Nvidia GeForce 7900GT PCI-E 16X (Asus EN7900GT)
3 Vbox USB-A 3560 ATSC tuners
2 FusionHDTV5 RT Lite PCI ATSC tuners
1 Hughes E8 DirecTV receiver modded for R5000-HD USB capture

Windows XP Pro SP2
Nvidia Forceware drivers version 93.71
Nvidia PureVideo Bronze decoder version 4020.223.0.0
AC3Filter version 1.11
SageTV version 6.1.4 running in service mode
VMR9 + FSE

Obviously I can't guarantee that building a similar system will give you trouble-free HD playback. And it's not like I've never seen a playback glitch. But it's rare and no worse than I see from time to time on my Tivo when the OTA signal flakes out.

[Jesse]

Hi,

Smooth reliable HD here as well. See my sig for details on my hardware/software.

Jesse

[mayamaniac]

For HD, from what I read about HD, just make sure your PC hardware is powerful enough to playback the HD content for your HDTV projector. How powerful? What ever fastest speed you can afford in terms of mainly your CPU and Video card. And it also depends on the strenght of the HD signal in your area.

As for SD, do you have cable or satellite for your SD content? Do you have a STB for digital content or just basic analog? Having an STB requires some sort of method to control it with the PC. If you just have analog cable then its fairly easy to setup.

For extenders, if your house is wired for networking to each TV room, then just purchase the Media extenders, they are fairly easy to setup with the latest version of SageTV.

For Pictures and Music, I think SageTV has improved a lot in this area, but it still has room for improvements. Just overall, I'm still not satisfied with these features, interface, and performance.

For Videos and DVD, SageTV does a fine job. If you rip your DVDs to the harddrive, you can playback from any client or extender. And SageTV supports enough video formats that should satisfy most users.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

To be honest, since mine works pretty well I haven't made a study of other people's HD issues to know what's different about their systems. I can give you a rundown of my system specs:

Asus A8N-SLI mobo
Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (2GHz)
2GB RAM (Crucial Tech)
Seagate 80GB SATA boot drive
Seagate 400GB and 750GB SATA recording drives, formatted with 64K blocks
Nvidia GeForce 7900GT PCI-E 16X (Asus EN7900GT)
3 Vbox USB-A 3560 ATSC tuners
2 FusionHDTV5 RT Lite PCI ATSC tuners
1 Hughes E8 DirecTV receiver modded for R5000-HD USB capture

Windows XP Pro SP2
Nvidia Forceware drivers version 93.71
Nvidia PureVideo Bronze decoder version 4020.223.0.0
AC3Filter version 1.11
SageTV version 6.1.4 running in service mode
VMR9 + FSE

Obviously I can't guarantee that building a similar system will give you trouble-free HD playback. And it's not like I've never seen a playback glitch. But it's rare and no worse than I see from time to time on my Tivo when the OTA signal flakes out.

That looks a lot like my good HD Setup:

Athlon 64 3400+
Geforce 6800 (AGP)
AN8-Ultra
1GB
SageTV 6.1
Java 6
Forceware 93.71 (IIRC)
"PureVideo" decoders 1.02-223 (Same as Greg, I'm just listing the download version number)
FSE VMR9
1280x720 to my IN76.
Audio is nVidia decoder passthrough.

Recording is from a Vbox 151 on my server (64k blocks) and streamed over Gig-E to my HTPC.

[paulbeers]

Just throwing out my .02 worth. It seems that the 7600GT is the perferred HD vid card right now (or better). You can even get them without a fan. Virtually any fairly modern cpu can handle HDTV, it is generally the vid card that is the bottleneck. My full clients below can handle HD, but in overlay and I only do 720P as not to push it. If I were to build a new client today, I would probably go with a basic processor (athlon64 3200+, 3500+) and a 7600GT for video. From there the rest is at your preference, although I recommend doing some research into the motherboard as you don't want an unstable motherboard (nothing upsets the WAF factor like a crash). One of my clients doesn't even have an optical drive.

[sainswor99]

Let me clarify my previous post; I don't want to come off as a self-loathing Sage user (there seems to be a lot of those around here)

As I understand it, the OP wants a rock-solid HD solution, something he doesn't want to tinker with. In my experience, Sage has been GREAT with SDTV for me, and I would say that the majority of users also don't have a problem with it for standard TV either. Just pulling numbers out of the air, I'd say that 90% of the SD setups work; no tweaking, just out-of-the-box.

However, if you look at the forums for any length of time, I don't get that impression about HD setups; my scientific guess would probably put that number at around 60% for successful installations for HD. There are several possible reasons for that:

1. The majority of users who use SageTV for HD are watching TV too much to post how well its going.

2. The ones who have trouble are really cranky about it, so they post more

3. HD is just a PITA to set up, regardless of solution you use.


My gut says its the latter, and I do think that Sage (and other solutions) will only get better at handling HD, especially now that the FCC has mandated that all tuner cards come HD-compliant. I personally wouldn't spend the money on a HD PCPVR at this point; in 6 months, sure.

Stu

[sandor]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

This is the one thing on your list that would make me hesitate; I don't think any PC-based PVR solution is rock-solid when it comes to HD. ...
My .02,

Stu

my all-OTA HD setup with sage has been solid (apart from my shortcomings in the tweaking category) since version 4.

$1500 should by you a great setup, in a HTPC case that has plenty of fire power for HDTV. Run with the best video card you can afford, as this will make the largest difference in HD decoding, and most likley the video card will come with component out.

Also, make sure to have plenty of disk space, with 500 GB drives runing around $130, a TB or 2 is cheap, and you can fill it up quickly with ATSC recordings and ripped DVD video. I'm running a sever with 2 clients and it houses all my DVDs and all the OTA recordings and the WAF is extremely high. i threw a logitech remote in the mix and i even had my mother in law using Sage within 5 minutes.

I swear all the BS you hear around Sage and HD is either due to inadequate hardware (i started with a P4 2.6 ghz server, wasn't fast enough, but the 3.0 has been running strong for well over a year) or due to QAM/encrypted HD which isn't Sage's fault, but rather the industry's fault (look at all the problems surrounding QAM and cable cards - my brother in law has Comcast techs out once a month to sort out new glitches, and most of the solutions end up being a new decoder....) OTA has been excellent for me, and being that i am only 5 miles from the Philadelphia broadcast towers, reception (even in this 'preliminary' low power broadcast stage) is excellent.

[Jesse]

Hi,

3. HD is just a PITA to set up, regardless of solution you use.

Yes and no.

I don't want to start a debate about HD. I can only speak about my personal experience with it. I know lots of folks have had very real problems. Also note that I am still running V5.

The long and short of it, for me anyhow, is this. Buy as much processor as you can afford and get a 7600GT or the ATI equivalent. A more than adequate AMD or Conroe dual core can be had for less than $200. A pci-x16 7600GT can be had for $125. Plan on spending $100-$125 on a first rate name brand mobo. Plenty of folks here can give you solid recommendations (as they have above). Don't skimp.

Don't install anything on these machines that is not required for sage to operate.

If you cannot get a good OTA signal then don't even try this. Nothing you can do will overcome poor reception. Do your homework on this. The hiccups I had at the outset of my HD install were 95% related to reception. It was a major PITA to get solid reception. I almost gave up more than once and had to remind myself more than once that this is fun.

Once again, this is based solely on my own experience and is not meant to invalidate anyone else's experiences.

HTH

Jesse

[sandor]

www.antennaweb.org



x2 in regards to reception. Especially with ATSC running at much lower broadcast powers than NTSC (until 2009), reception is spotty from a distance. As well, for people on the fringes, ATSC actually limits broadcast range, but greatly increases quality within that range.

[paulbeers]

I will also agree that most of the problems on these forums are people trying to use underpowered setups, inadequate signal strengths, or faulty hardware. As I stated earlier, any decent CPU and a 7600GT or better and you will have no problems with HD. Any tinkering I have had to do, is because both of my clients are underpowered. I know this. The only reason I don't bother with upgrading is I am waiting for the HD Client. I have a feeling that once they come out (if they work anything like the MediaMVP), then HD will be just as easy as SD (with the exception again of signal strength).

Edit: I should have mentioned another issue is people using poor codecs. I fought for a long time spending the money on the nvidia Purevideo codecs, but as soon as spent the money, the studdering virtually disappeared.

[Jesse]

Hi,

The only reason I don't bother with upgrading is I am waiting for the HD Client. I have a feeling that once they come out (if they work anything like the MediaMVP), then HD will be just as easy as SD (with the exception again of signal strength).

Right on.

Jesse

[mkruse]

Okay... I get 100% signal strength from OTA HD that I currently watch, so no problem there. I have a good UHF antenna on top of my garage pointed right at the antennas - works great!

I have a 1.3ghz Athlon machine with 512MB of RAM. It's an older machine, but right now it's just sitting on my network as a file server. Would this be fast enough to run SageTV if I get some tuner cards? If not HD, then at least SD?

How much of an impact does disk speed have on performance? I have a fast 18gb scsi drive as my primary and a few 7200rpm IDE drives sitting around that total maybe 500gb. If I threw all those in there, do you think it would be good enough to run SageTV? If it might be close enough, I'll consider buying a tuner card and giving it a go with the demo version. But if it's clearly a no, then I'll have to look into upgrading the mb/cpu/ram before going any further.

[Jesse]

Hi,

That machine should work quite well as your sage server. If you do have good OTA HD reception you should have no problem using this machine to capture and store HD shows. As for playback on this machine you will just have to give it a try. SD should be no problem but HD is probably not going to work well at all.

HDD speed should not be an issue. I use both pata and sata drives with no problems at all.

I would most certainly give it a try on this machine. Get yourself one tuner card and go for it.

Let us know how it goes.

Jesse

[mkruse]

Okay, if the machine isn't good enough to playback, then what's the point?

If I were to give it a try, what is the best/fastest SD card to get of the list of options that they provide on this site?

Also I haven't found much info on DVD playback. It requires a separate DVD software player, correct? Will Windows Media Player work? And will my machine be able to handle DVD playback from HD? That is actually the #1 priority for me, as I already have two tivo's. I just want a networked file-based DVD player more than anything!

[sainswor99]

I thought it was funny that after all the advice people were giving about underpowered hardware that Jesse would say a 1.3G Athlon would be just fine; I realized (before I posted) that he was saying it would record fine, but you'd need a faster box to play it back.

Here's a link to the systems requirements page:

http://www.sagetv.com/requirements.html?sageSub=tv


I think a lot of us use the Hauppauge PVR-150 and 500 cards for SD; I also have an Nvidia DualTV. You just really want to be sure you get a card with hardware encoding. However, many of the SD-only cards are going away in the near future, given the FCC rulings on HD:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/dualtv_discontinued.html


HTH,
Stu

[mkruse]

Unfortunately the requirements page doesn't mention playback! The way it sounds there, my system would be fine, right? I think one of the big things that could be improved by this site is being more specific about what will and won't work. I bet there are a lot of people like me, on the edge of whether or not to go with SageTV, but unable to find out for sure what I really need for it to work.

So given the new FCC rulings, will that mean that the current analog SD cards will become really cheap? I have no desire for digital signals, since I'm using analog cable and OTA HD. Damn the FCC.