New SageTV Interface

[mickp]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Well, as I mentioned somewhere above, the thing I like about Sage is its mouse support. I have no remotes setup, and the keyboard is usually put away.

Controlling via a mouse is "heads up," meaning you don't need to look away from the screen, and you don't need to have back-lit keys. And it's easy to tell where all two buttons are, and which is which.

IMHO, setting a computer up to use a remote is like setting up your coffee pot to be controlled by your lawnmower.

Aaah. TV and VCR manufacturers had it wrong all this time. They should have been using a mouse. Maybe that could have saved betamax .

You're right tho. The lack of full mouse contol has caused some slight waf issues here in the past (on the client). I hope that this gets some attention sometime. There are however many, many things to like about sagemc and I heartily recommend brushing up on your keyboard shortcuts or grabbing a remote and giving it a go.

The fact remains that many people prefer to use an alternative interface for sage and ui look and feel is a factor in people's buying decisions. I think it would be sage to promote the options to the public.

Mick.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by mickp

Aaah. TV and VCR manufacturers had it wrong all this time. They should have been using a mouse. Maybe that could have saved betamax ..

Maybe we should go back further, and have our computers hooked up to a wired remote!

The difference here is we're dealing with a computer, where everything on it was designed to work with a mouse. Check out the recent thread about how to turn off the computer from within Sage with a remote. If that person was using a mouse, he wouldn't have these issues.

I remember about 8-10 years ago, Sony came out with a receiver that had some sort of a very simplfied remote, that worked through your TV. I never saw it in person, but assume it was closer to a mouse than a remote.

But I guess the point is, when you look at the other screenshots from SageMC, most of it looks like it would be very cumbersome to navigate with a remote. So those of you favoring SageMC over Sage's native UI are favoring a system that requires additional setup to have a third device to control your computer. Not a good tradeoff to get a different look, IMHO.

[jkohn]

You know I can't believe people are holding up Tivo as the paragon of DVR interfaces. If SageTV were to adopt the Tivo UI I would stop using it immediately. That has to be the most dumbed-down, cartoonish interfaces I've ever seen. Who wants beeping and silly little animations that slow the UI down? But then I've always hated style of substance and visual gimmicks.

IMO, SageTV's UI is miles better than any Satellite/Cable DVR I've seen, and while some of the menus could maybe use a little restructuring I think a wholesale UI change would not be a good idea, especially if it broke compatiblity with Girder exports, addon STVi's, etc. The only thing I really find myself missing from the default UI (and that is avaiable in SageMC) is the ability to scroll through channels without actually changing channels using the up/down arrows while watching TV fullscreen.

[jkohn]

IMHO, setting a computer up to use a remote is like setting up your coffee pot to be controlled by your lawnmower.

In the case of an HTPC I couldn't disagree more. My HTPC is just one component in the HT rack and I want to use it/control it just like the other components. The last thing I want is to have to dig out a trackball or gyro mouse to navigate HTPC software when sitting on the couch watching TV (a regular mouse isn't even an option because I'm not sitting at a desk). I don't use my HTPC as a general purpose computer, I use it as a media center and the fact that I can control the whole system from my Pronto is a huge plus in useability not only for me but my wife or anybody else who wants to use the system.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jkohn

In the case of an HTPC I couldn't disagree more. My HTPC is just one component in the HT rack and I want to use it/control it just like the other components. The last thing I want is to have to dig out a trackball or gyro mouse to navigate HTPC software when sitting on the couch watching TV (a regular mouse isn't even an option because I'm not sitting at a desk)..

I believe above I specifically suggested a Bluetooth or Gyration mouse. I'm not suggesting a $5 corded mouse.

The last think I want to do is grab a remote and use the cursor keys to navigate through a GUI. That's just nuts. That would be like using your keyboard to navigate the Windows desktop. It's possible, but very cumbersome.

But the point isn't to change what you do. The point is more that the UI you're all claiming is so much better than the the stock UI is inferior to the stock UI because it doesn't have full mouse support. Exchanging flash for lack of functionality isn't a good exchange.

Not that there aren't other reasons to use SageMC. That is it more customizable is great, but without full mouse support it's useless in my household.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jkohn

You know I can't believe people are holding up Tivo as the paragon of DVR interfaces. If SageTV were to adopt the Tivo UI I would stop using it immediately. That has to be the most dumbed-down, cartoonish interfaces I've ever seen. Who wants beeping and silly little animations that slow the UI down? But then I've always hated style of substance and visual gimmicks. .

I can't understand this at all. The Sage UI is very similar to Tivo, but lacks the animation. So you're basically saying if Sage was the way it currently is, you'd quit using it.

Remember, it's the flash people seem to want. I prefer the basic functionality--the Tivo UI without the animation.

[Morgan111]

I think most users fall into the category of control with remote only or keyboard and mouse. I use SageMC only have several dedicated HTPCs that are easy to get to anything we need with an MCE remote. My wife would not be happy if I made her use a mouse for the HTPC. Then I also run clients on a desk pc and a notebook where I am already using a keyboard (in fact in those cases I usually just navigate with the keyboard and don't bother with the mouse). If I am doing maintenence or something crashes then a mouse is helpful (although crashes are not a problem of the UI).

Using a remote with a few extra keys and you can map those to all sorts of screens or actions with just one touch.

I know a UI like MCE/SageMC may not be useful or like by all, but I think it serves the purpose well for a good percentage of users.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by Morgan111

I think most users fall into the category of control with remote only or keyboard and mouse. I use SageMC only have several dedicated HTPCs that are easy to get to anything we need with an MCE remote. My wife would not be happy if I made her use a mouse for the HTPC. .

I'd agree with that, but the point is more it needs to do both. My wife wouldn't be happy if I made her use a remote.

[jkohn]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I believe above I specifically suggested a Bluetooth or Gyration mouse. I'm not suggesting a $5 corded mouse.

I didn't say you were talking about a corded mouse; but a bluetooth mouse still requires a surface to use it on, and when I tried a gryro mouse I absolutely hated it.

The last think I want to do is grab a remote and use the cursor keys to navigate through a GUI. That's just nuts. That would be like using your keyboard to navigate the Windows desktop. It's possible, but very cumbersome.

I guess maybe you have a valid point for someone using a simple remote where almost everything is done with cursor/enter keys. But with my remote I can get to most commonly-used screens (EPG, Recordings, Media library, etc) with a single button press. I even have channel icons I can press to directly tune most of the channels I watch. I don't have to go wading through a bunch of menus for the everyday tasks.

But the point isn't to change what you do. The point is more that the UI you're all claiming is so much better than the the stock UI is inferior to the stock UI because it doesn't have full mouse support. Exchanging flash for lack of functionality isn't a good exchange.

I wasn't defending SageMC, I don't use it and didn't care for it when I tried it. I was just saying that a mouse is most definitely not the preferred means of navigation for myself and many others. I do agree that mouse control shoudl be an option though (and it is in the default UI).

[jkohn]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I can't understand this at all. The Sage UI is very similar to Tivo, but lacks the animation. So you're basically saying if Sage was the way it currently is, you'd quit using it.

No what I'm saying is the animations, beeps, and general slugishness of the Tivo are annoying. I've only seen the Tivo at my friend's house (after using an UltimateTV previously, he hates the Tivo with a passion), but from what I can tell it's not nearly as flexible as SageTV either - it just seems dumped down.

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

But the point isn't to change what you do. The point is more that the UI you're all claiming is so much better than the the stock UI is inferior to the stock UI because it doesn't have full mouse support. Exchanging flash for lack of functionality isn't a good exchange.

As others have already pointed out, a lot of people use SageTV as a Home Theater component that feeds living room and other TVs, and is controlled by remote controls. Arguing that any UI which doesn't have full mouse support is inferior is, putting it mildly, a very subjective point of view.

Dirk

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jkohn

No what I'm saying is the animations, beeps, and general slugishness of the Tivo are annoying. I've only seen the Tivo at my friend's house (after using an UltimateTV previously, he hates the Tivo with a passion), but from what I can tell it's not nearly as flexible as SageTV either - it just seems dumped down.

The Tivo I'm familiar with is the most dumbed down. It's the original DirecTV one, but I've also seen the DirecTV one that added folders. So, yes, I'd agree Sage does more. I'm just talking about the basic design--they're very similar.

BTW, the only other dedicated DVR UI design I've ever seen was the Comcast one on the Moto boxes. That was horrible.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by flachbar

As others have already pointed out, a lot of people use SageTV as a Home Theater component that feeds living room and other TVs, and is controlled by remote controls. Arguing that any UI which doesn't have full mouse support is inferior is, putting it mildly, a very subjective point of view.

Dirk

Hardly. It's clearly inferior, it's just a matter of whether you need that.

Analogy: XP Home is inferior to XP Pro because it doesn't do Remote Desktop or file encryption. Many users don't need those features, but it doesn't mean that Home isn't inferior to Pro.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jkohn

II wasn't defending SageMC, I don't use it and didn't care for it when I tried it. I was just saying that a mouse is most definitely not the preferred means of navigation for myself and many others. I do agree that mouse control shoudl be an option though (and it is in the default UI).

I'd agree with that. Again, I'm not saying everyone should be using a mouse.

Although when you start talking about programmable remotes and wives, you're starting to talk expensive because you need two for each location. Try to have just one toy, and the WAF drops incredibly!

[olyar15]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Maybe we should go back further, and have our computers hooked up to a wired remote!

The difference here is we're dealing with a computer, where everything on it was designed to work with a mouse. Check out the recent thread about how to turn off the computer from within Sage with a remote. If that person was using a mouse, he wouldn't have these issues.

I remember about 8-10 years ago, Sony came out with a receiver that had some sort of a very simplfied remote, that worked through your TV. I never saw it in person, but assume it was closer to a mouse than a remote.

But I guess the point is, when you look at the other screenshots from SageMC, most of it looks like it would be very cumbersome to navigate with a remote. So those of you favoring SageMC over Sage's native UI are favoring a system that requires additional setup to have a third device to control your computer. Not a good tradeoff to get a different look, IMHO.

No, we are not dealing with desktop computers, we are dealing with HTPCs. These are DESIGNED to be used on the couch, with a "10-foot interface" and a remote. If you want to use a regular computer, you might as well just use WMP or JRMC. These programs are designed to be used on a desktop computer with a mouse and keyboard. Criticizing Sage or SageMC that it isn't mouse-friendly is like criticizing a Corvette for not being able to carry a sofa.

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Analogy: XP Home is inferior to XP Pro because it doesn't do Remote Desktop or file encryption. Many users don't need those features, but it doesn't mean that Home isn't inferior to Pro.

Does XP Home offer any important functionality that you won't find in XP Pro ? Nope you don't, so this analogy isn't valid. Full mouse support might be very important to you, but there are a lot of people who couldn't care less, but who do need the features in SageMC that you won't find in the default STV. Tying inferiority/superiority to a single criteria like full mouse support is, imho, ridiculous.

Dirk

[Morgan111]

Maybe someone can step up to the plate and become very popular coming up with a flashy or attractive STV to satisfy the mouse loving crowd .

It may not be so impossible if starting from the default STV as a baseline and stealing things from SageMC. There may be some good mouse friendly designs to consider from the Meedio/mediaPortal links. If some does this they should definitely consider including the capability for changing "Themes" or "skins" like was done with the SageMC STV.

We can sit here and complain about what we don't like about the defaut or SageMC interface or step up to the plate and make it what you want. That is what Studio is for. It takes some learning, but surely someone is up to the challenge! SageTV may be doing some improvements over time to the default, but I'm sure it won't come fast or please everyone.

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I'd agree with that. Again, I'm not saying everyone should be using a mouse.

Although when you start talking about programmable remotes and wives, you're starting to talk expensive because you need two for each location. Try to have just one toy, and the WAF drops incredibly!

Man, you and I are in COMPLETELY different worlds. I have ONE programmable remote. Admittedly a pretty good one. A Home Theater Master MX-700. It controls everything in my home theater system (I love Girder ). My wife couldn't be happier. I have it programmed to go to whatever program on the PC it needs with one button press. Runs a macro, changes inputs on my AV receiver and TV accordingly.

If I tried to use my system your way, I'd have to put down the remote, pick up the mouse, put that down and pick up the remote again. I think you get my point.

Now, this is important... Your way isn't wrong, just wrong for ME. You need options.

And this is the real problem with UI design. You cannot possibly please everyone with one. You need options.

I remember the discussion here a while back about how important it was to get Studio. How it would open up STV development. I for one, argued that it would accelerate STV development. What happened ??? It completely died! Go figure.

I am not, nor will I ever be, a programmer. I don't have the time or patience to become one. So I can only assume that creating a new STV must be absolute hell. And maybe that's the real issue. If Sage were designed to make "skinning" easy, we'd have a lot more options. Just look at other HTPC and media software forums and see how busy the skinning sections are when skinning is accessible.

[mickp]

The point that I'd been attempting to make in an earlier post is not that one interface is better for everyone, just that options are good and it's very difficult imho to discover all of the wonderful work that is contributed by the community from the front page of the site.

If I'd seen sagemc or meekel screenshots when I'd first gone to take a look at SAGE then I probably wouldn't have spent more than two years running btv/bm.

We now have a sage server at work and since seeing the sagemc interface several of my colleagues who had taken a cursory look at sage and gone with another solution have purchased sagetv.

Before going through a complete re-write of the sage interface I think it would be well worth promoting the other interface options that are out there. I may be naive but I don't see how this could cause problems for sage.

What do you think? Would seeing some information and screenshots of sagemc, mekell and plugins such as movie times etc on the sage site turn you off? Is it already simple enough to for people to discover this cornucopia of 10' goodness?

Mick.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by olyar15

No, we are not dealing with desktop computers, we are dealing with HTPCs. These are DESIGNED to be used on the couch, with a "10-foot interface" and a remote. If you want to use a regular computer, you might as well just use WMP or JRMC. These programs are designed to be used on a desktop computer with a mouse and keyboard. Criticizing Sage or SageMC that it isn't mouse-friendly is like criticizing a Corvette for not being able to carry a sofa.

I am talking about HTPCs, and if you'd read what I wrote I've praised Sage for being very mouse friendly.

But an HTPC is still a PC. Pretending it's not is silly.