New SageTV Interface

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

However, UI ( in terms of both intuitive navigation and visual appeal) should (in my opinion) be pretty high on the list of things to improve in SageTV without blaming the customer for being too lazy to do anything about it (not that the Sage team has done that, but it seems to be an attitude expressed in some posts in this thread).

I can see how some of my remarks could be read that way. However I don't mean to call anyone lazy. The point I'm trying to make is that there are two ways to communicate your UI desires to the Sage devs: by talking or by doing. Lots of people choose the talking option, so it's hard for any one person to make themselves heard that way. On the other hand, the most respected people on these forums are the ones who have contributed the most (in terms of plugins, not post count). If you want your ideas to stand out from the crowd, one way to do it is to invest some sweat equity into prototyping them in a form that other users (and Sage devs) can get their hands on and play with. A picture is worth 1000 words.

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Just checked; how does one contact Sage with development ideas?

I believe Jeff and/or Andy have said you can use the regular bug report and support request forms for this.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by JUC

i see your point...but i would think the initial costs/effort of software development have been recouped. Sage is not losing money (i hope) on each license they sell.

That would be pretty tough with software that is downloaded. Each sale is practically pure profit once the costs of development are covered.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Each sale is practically pure profit once the costs of development are covered.

You think support, bugfix and enhancements are free?

[samgreco]

I too am exhausted after reading all of this However, some thoughts...

1. Remember that we, as techie types (and my guess is that most of the users on this forum are to one degree or another), too easily forget what the "average" user out there understands, or is looking for in an application like this. It all seems easy to us.

I have been using SageTV since 2.2-ish. Meaning over 2 years. My wife STILL gets completely confused by the interface. She now knows where to go to watch LiveTv and recordings. That's it. And mind you, she has been a PC user for over 15 YEARS. She uses Adobe Premiere to edit videos for a living. She just doesn't want to be burdened with learning it. "It should just work." So it's my job to simplify the menus.

2. Studies show that the average person makes a buying decision in the first 7 seconds. You cannot understand the inner workings of something like this in 7 seconds. So the perception of the product on first look is what does it. I don't like it, but there it is. Then, down the road come the discoveries of the inner workings.

3. SageTV (and all of the other indepent PVRs out there) are in a very precarious position right now. MS is flooding the market with Vista/MCE. In a year, or two as PCs get replaced, they will get Vista MCE included. Why will they spend extra money on an add-on if they don't see the need? And when they fire it up and use it, will they make the 7 second decision?

Right now, I have to admit, the only reason I'm still using Sage, is the true client/server functionality. MS doesn't seem to get that. Forcing me to buy an XBox to get it is not working for me. So for now, I can use a PC to do it.

I gladly paid the upgrade fee for V6. I think it was fair. And this is coming from a MS Technet subscriber. I get 10 licenses of ALL of the MS OSes included. I'm still not going to Vista for PVR. Yet. But the demo I saw at CES was mighty tempting.

It looked pretty cool (See #2 above )

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by samgreco

2. Studies show that the average person makes a buying decision in the first 7 seconds. You cannot understand the inner workings of something like this in 7 seconds.

You can't even download it and set it up in 7 seconds. That figure may be valid for retail items on store shelves (or maybe not), but I don't see how it can possibly be relevant to a downloadable software product with a 15-day free trial. This is not an impulse buy; this is something you have to find out about and go to the website and find the download link and run the installer, all before you get your first glimpse of the UI. Sure, first impressions count, but anybody who's gone through all that is at least going to spend a few minutes fooling around with it before giving it the thumbs-down.

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by ybrew

OK, not a sage newbie, but I've been happy with pretty much stock out of the box setup.

I am running the webbrowser but nothing else.

What's so good about SAGEMC and how easy is it to setup?
Is there a dummies guide for it?

So last night I did some research, downloaded and installed SAGEMC and I've seen the light!

Very nice indeed.

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

You can't even download it and set it up in 7 seconds. That figure may be valid for retail items on store shelves (or maybe not), but I don't see how it can possibly be relevant to a downloadable software product with a 15-day free trial. This is not an impulse buy; this is something you have to find out about and go to the website and find the download link and run the installer, all before you get your first glimpse of the UI. Sure, first impressions count, but anybody who's gone through all that is at least going to spend a few minutes fooling around with it before giving it the thumbs-down.

Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer. It's just meant to illustrate. I have seen (and done it) someone install a piece of software and after downloading it, fire it up, go through a couple of menus and then unistall it because they/I didn't like the "feel" of it. I realize that retail is different.

But if SageTV ever wanted to be in a box on the shelves and Fry's or Best Buy, this would most certainly apply.

But again, my point is to illustrate that the general public is driven by first impressions. And as the old saying goes, you only get one chance at a first impression.

[olyar15]

The problem with trying to improve the user interface with a product like SageTV is that it is becoming much more complex than a Tivo or even MCE. I haven't played with BeyondTV/BeyondMedia, although now that I have some spare parts I might give that a try. With such a complex program, there is going to be a greater variety of ways that people will use it. Therefore, what makes sense for one person will drive another person nuts.

For example. I have never used the "watch Live TV" option on the main menu except by accident. I rarely watch live TV these days, and if I do want to watch what is currently on, I go to the EPG to figure out what is on rather than channel-surf. So as far as I'm concerned, that can be removed from the main menu or even eliminated entirely. If you want to watch something, go through the EPG. Of course others might disagree.

Another example. Some feel that all imported videos, archived shows, and recent recordings should be combined. IMO that is the biggest mistake. It may be ok if you don't have a lot of files, but as the number of archived or imported media increases, it will become a pain in the ass to deal with. Most of the time, when I use Sage, I want to get to the recently recorded shows. I do want the archived shows to be separate, and the imported videos to be separate from the recorded and archived TV recordings. That is because most of my imported videos consist of bits of video downloaded from the net, or small movies that I recorded from my digicam. I definitely don't want those mixed in with the recorded TV shows.

And so it goes. Single people will have different priorities than those with multiple viewers in a household, especially if there are children. So, how does
Sage design a UI that will appeal to the largest number of potential users?

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by olyar15

Another example. Some feel that all imported videos, archived shows, and recent recordings should be combined. IMO that is the biggest mistake. It may be ok if you don't have a lot of files, but as the number of archived or imported media increases, it will become a pain in the ass to deal with. Most of the time, when I use Sage, I want to get to the recently recorded shows. I do want the archived shows to be separate, and the imported videos to be separate from the recorded and archived TV recordings. That is because most of my imported videos consist of bits of video downloaded from the net, or small movies that I recorded from my digicam. I definitely don't want those mixed in with the recorded TV shows.

Because I was one of the ones who first broached this idea, I feel like I should explain it a bit more; I'm not saying that all of your videos (recorded, DVD, archived, imported, downloaded) should be lumped in a big heap; I am suggesting that accessing that material should be accessed in a simpler fashion.

For example, I was envisioning an item on the opening menu like: "Watch Video". When you click on it, it takes you to a screen showing you your material grouped by type (recorded, imported, archived, downloaded); you could then navigate further down the chain as you desire. Even cooler would be to have the Watch Video button bring up your default group, which you then pick from. Kind of like the way the Media center categorizes songs.

Just clarifying the point.

[src666]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

You can't even download it and set it up in 7 seconds. That figure may be valid for retail items on store shelves (or maybe not), but I don't see how it can possibly be relevant to a downloadable software product with a 15-day free trial. This is not an impulse buy; this is something you have to find out about and go to the website and find the download link and run the installer, all before you get your first glimpse of the UI. Sure, first impressions count, but anybody who's gone through all that is at least going to spend a few minutes fooling around with it before giving it the thumbs-down.

Yes, but that's a bit disingenuous. There are MANY ways that I evaluate software before I download it. Screenshots, manuals, reviews, seeing it running somewhere, etc. There are many, many instances where I will skip a product without even trying it, because it appears to be poorly put together. Frankly, I skipped SageTV my first time through. I tried MythTV, and only looked at Sage again because of some serious hardware compatability issues that prevented Myth from working right.

Looking at the screenshots, Sage looked very crude - very much a work in progress. It's not until you actually use the product for a while that you get the "aha!" reaction and realize that it does so much so well. Lots of people will never get that far, because they will give it a cursory examination and see that it _appears_ to lag far behind the others, because the UI isn't as neat, polished, inviting, whatever. It just isn't.

In comparison to the "big name" products it's going to have to compete with, it's seriously unimpressive to look at and to "noodle around" in. You know better. I know better. But is a prospective new user going to know better? After 10 minutes? After 1 hour? How long will they have to play with it before they discover its real power? Too long, in most cases. And most of it's best features are really only obvious to geeks who know exactly what they are looking for (true client/server, programmability, etc.).

And that's where we get back to my main point. The market _has changed_. There is very real, very serious, very affordable competition out there now. And it's easier to get than Sage, because it's going to be coming with many, if not most, new computers sold. And it does most of what most users will want in a DVR. This is what SageTV is up against now, and they have to catch up in UI development or they won't even get an audition.

[briands]

OK, here's my take for what it's worth...

I second the idea to keep the current UI as Classic to maintain most compatibility with current customizations but release a new "prettier", better laid out default STV.

core features to improve the customization

• Add easy skin interface to do simple UI appearance changes (graphics, colors, fonts)
• Interface to change menu structure (add / remove/ move commands around on screens.
• Ability to access any screen with a direct IR command eg GOTO screen name
• Ability to create multiple custom commands... what's with the limit of the 5 custom commands?

My personal menu structure would be a lot like the default SageMC one. I'd add FM and internet radio (hint hint) to the music section. Add Google Video to the video section.
A nice built in low res browser would be a nice touch as well (similar to those for small form factors like cell phones)

[briands]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Just checked; how does one contact Sage with development ideas? All that's listed on their contact page is information for support and/or sales:

snip

I've submitted feature requests in the past to the Tech support group (I'm pretty sure that has been recommended in the past feature request threads - Opus?

I have gotten email stating that the request will be passed over to the development team.

You can find the link in the top level of the forum just above this subforum.

[briands]

By the way, one counterpoint to those suggesting not to overhaul the UI, consider that Frey made a pretty strong point by adding Media Center to the product name without really highliting those features in the UI.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by src666

Looking at the screenshots, Sage looked very crude - very much a work in progress. It's not until you actually use the product for a while that you get the "aha!" reaction and realize that it does so much so well. Lots of people will never get that far, because they will give it a cursory examination and see that it _appears_ to lag far behind the others, because the UI isn't as neat, polished, inviting, whatever. It just isn't. .

As a former Tivo user, it looked very familiar to me.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Is there a way to have Sage start on the Sage Recordings page?

Not without editing the STV in Studio (post separately in the studio forum asking for this if you want to try it but don't know how)

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I would say it's not terribly intuitive about many things--like the tip above, or those icons that appear on the TV schedule which mean nothing obvious.. To do basic things, you shouldn't have to RTFM.

Setup/Help/User Interface Guide explains the icons. On a first time setup I believe you are prompted to follow this tutorial.

The problem with UI design which is multipled a thousand times in 10ft UI's (because the screen real-estate is much much smaller) is screen clutter: where do you put all the controls related to a screen without making it a mess. Also 10ft UIs for complex programs are realtively new (whereas WIMP has been around for decades now, and there are several studies and style guides for it)

Going back to the including Archived files in Sage Recordings, this is in the rightClick/Esc/Options popup menu, along with all the other sorting/filtering options: where else could it be? How could it be made more obvious? I have no clue!

People say that Sage's UI should be more simple. The problem is that making the UI more simple will hide a lot of the configurability (such as the above filtering/sorting options) that makes Sage powerful, and then people don't find these things because they are hidden.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by olyar15

For example. I have never used the "watch Live TV" option on the main menu except by accident. I rarely watch live TV these days, and if I do want to watch what is currently on, I go to the EPG to figure out what is on rather than channel-surf. So as far as I'm concerned, that can be removed from the main menu or even eliminated entirely. If you want to watch something, go through the EPG. Of course others might disagree.

SageTV V2-4 (I think) did not have this Watch LiveTV button. It was added because a lot of people were saying how stupid it is that you have to go through 3 different menus to watch live TV!

This is why I release my customisable menus plugin -- so that you can easily add/remove/move menu items...

[nielm]

One final point and I will shut up...

If you feel that you can improve something, and have the ability in Studio to make a working prototype, why not send it to Sage to see if they like it... (I did this with the new Recording conflicts screen which visualises the conflict, also the NTE quick filter for music/vids evolved from a prototype I sent.) If they do like it, then it might become part of sage[*]. If not, they you can always try releasing it as an import...

Similarly in beta test, if you feel that a new feature's useability can be improved, send them feedback saying how, not just bug reports...

Both of these could be considered that you are doing Sage's job for them. In one sense, this is true, but in another sense, if sage adopt your work/suggestion, then you get a tested, supported version of sage that works more to your requirements.

[real_per]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Just checked; how does one contact Sage with development ideas?

Under company it says;

"We'd like to hear your feedback and suggestions on SageTV's products. Please e-mail your comments to comments@sagetv.com "

[tmiranda]

IMHO Apple does a fantastic job with interface design. I think Sage can take a page from their book. I seriously doubt Apple produces great interfaces by asking users "do you want the menu item here, or do you want it there." What they do seem to do is focus on simplicity and usability. They do not have hundreds of "configurable" items, plugins, enhancements, etc. They ask their designers to make an "insanely great" interface and that's usually what they get.

I'd suggest the following. Cut the Sage designers loose to make an "insanely great" interface. Make it elegant, simple, and functional. Do not throw in every bell and whistle, enhancement, configuration options, etc. Do not worry about "backwards compatibility" with the current set of plug-ins and enhancements.

During the installation process have the ability to do an "advanced" install and in there give the user the ability to install the "old" (i.e. current) UI.

By doing this you give the "average" user a great interface "out of the box" while allowing the geeks to customize and tweek to their hearts content. The fact that Sage's design allows for using completely different UI's is a great strength that needs to be exploited.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by briands

• Ability to access any screen with a direct IR command eg GOTO screen name
• Ability to create multiple custom commands... what's with the limit of the 5 custom commands?

My Menu Shortcut Bars plugin will give you this. Once configured you can program upto 50 different menus to goto with a simple 2 button press. The first press would be Custom1-5 and then just press one of the number keys on the remote and you will jump to the menu that you have programmed to that combination. And as far as I know it still works with SageMC as I wrote it to be as STV generic as I could.

BobP.