Geeks and Geek Squad/Consumer Technology woes featured on 60 Minutes tonight

[Steve2112]

Did anyone catch the segment on 60 minutes tonight? It was pretty good. It featured a story on how technology is too complicated for Joe consumer to setup and understand.

There was a guy that bought a 32" HDTV, but he could not set it up when he got it home, so he had to call a professional.

They also had the guy that founded the Geek Squad, and later sold it to Best Buy. The showed a neighborhood kid that handles tech support for people around his home, and then the "Geek to the stars" who installs $200,000 home theater/home automation systems.

They showed a couple of call support centers for Dell etc., and you could hear the irate guy on the other end of the phone saying he has been on the phone working on the problem for 3 hours - they also showed a couple of outsourced Indian workers on the phones.

The former owner of the Geek Squad said 25% of wireless routers are returned because they are too complicated for the end user to setup and configure.

This is all very interesting to me, as this is the type of stuff I do for a living 9-5, and then side jobs for friends and family (which is no picnic). They mentioned that the PC tech for the home is starting to get a status like a plumber or electrician. Now just tell my friends that they need to pay me $75/hour for my services.

They then moved onto cars and how complicated the systems are like iDrive in BMWs, and similar systems in Mercedes. They blame it all on competition and getting products to market as fast as possible, without giving the engineers time to work on the human interface part of the project.

They showed a few blue screens of death, cell phones, text msgs. One of the hosts from 60 minutes was in a Best Buy with the former Geek Squad owner, and he said bring me to something complicated, and he said walk in any direction! They showed toasters with LED countdown timers that show you when your toast is going to pop up.

Did anyone else see it? It was a great segment for techies like me. At the end they talked about job security for tech support people - things are always changing, and something new to learn is right around the corner.

Which brings me to my segue for Windows Vista - coming out in a couple of days, and there are like 5 versions of it! Time for more consumer confusion!'

Bring it on - I just had my free 250 business cards printed from vistaprint!

[sjrx0213]

Ah sweet, delicious irony...

I just happened to read your post while browsing from my Sage server, and being on the west coast, simply launched Sage and set it to record 60 Minutes.

Sometimes being a geek has its advantages.

--Steve

[Jesse]

Hi,

Wish I had caught this one. Just checked on sage ( ), but it lists no other showings.

On an intellectual level I know this is mostly true, but having spent so much time with both my Granddads I just cant get my head all the way around this. These guys were survivors of the great depression and the second world war. They always taught me that whatever it is that someone else could do, I could do. I am not in their league, but I like to think I am not too far off. Sure, I have broken/ruined plenty of stuff in an effort to learn, but it has been lots of fun along the way.

How did people become so helpless? Besides, you can learn anything with a high speed connection and the right internet forum.

Jesse

[SHS]

They then moved onto cars and how complicated the systems are like iDrive in BMWs, and similar systems in Mercedes. They blame it all on competition and getting products to market as fast as possible, without giving the engineers time to work on the human interface part of the project.

wrong engineers don't think like your joe consumer that part of the problem when come new technology which are more complicated and harder for them engineers to make something for avg Joe consumer to setup and understand with eye q of 2 with new technology hehe.

Dran I miss it oh well but I'm sure it show here
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/36/get_me_the_geeks

[pat_smith1969]

The reality is that the majority of poeple today are below average intelegence (imo). The Joe Consumer is the type of person who cannot handel anything more complicated than Windows MCE (for instance). MCE works well, sets up fairly easy but is limited out of the box. Even "My Movies" is beyond most people.

SageTV works great out of the box as well, but let's face it. SageTv's niche is it's expandability, and that is way beyond an average person. Can you really imagine the Janitor of your workplace, or the grocery store clerk where you shop, installing MediaMC and configuring the ID3 tags for their MP3 collection.

Kids today are huge users of technology and are not afraid of it (which is good), but with the declining ability of the public school system to teach them advanced math (or reading/writing) will really limit their ability to develop new and exciting technologies like we are seeing now.

sorry for being pessimistic...

[hemicuda]

Originally Posted by pat_smith1969

sorry for being pessimistic...

Sad but true... 9 out of 10 pessimistic = realistic. wife gives me grief about that, but it's not me looking on the down side, just that it's the way things are most of the time.

[waynedunham]

Originally Posted by pat_smith1969

but with the declining ability of the public school system to teach them advanced math (or reading/writing) will really limit their ability to develop new and exciting technologies like we are seeing now.

sorry for being pessimistic...

Heck, I'd be happy if they taught them BASIC Math, History, etc. A few years back I sat at a cash register (which was broken) watching 2 high school kids try to figure out how much I owed for 2 breakfast sandwiches at a local diner. The truly sad part is that they weren't stuck on how to figure out the tax..... THEY COULDN"T ADD THE PRICE OF 2 SANDWICHES TOGETHER!! And that was after trying to use a calculator, and then the truly pathetic part was they couldn't even do it with pencil and paper. Finally I asked to see the tax charts (couldn't recall the state tax % on food) so I could tell them how much I owed and get to work. <sigh>

A couple years later standing in line at the country grocery store there were two high schoolers in front of me arguing over the # of states in America. One thought there were 51 and the other was SURE there were 53 "because he forgot Puerto Rico, and they just made Alaska a state". I was thinking... "errr, PR isn't a state, and YEAH they "just" made Alaska a state ....in 1959, probably 25 years before you were BORN!!!" That's what I should have said, but I just stood there shaking my head and told them there are 50 states and they should look it up on the web. <aaarrrrrrggghhhh!!!>

We're raising a nation of Ipod wearin', Xbox playin', blithering IDIOTS!!

[blade]

While I agree with a lot of what has been said I think many of you don't realize how bad your own generation is. This goes for all of us. Every generation has intelligent people and those who are so ignorant it's amazing they can even survive.

I've worked with men who never finished high school and men who have their doctorate degrees. I can assure you those with an education aren't always better at their jobs. Common sense and the ability to apply reason and logic goes a long way. It doesn't matter how much a person knows if they can't apply the knowledge in the real world. The biggest problem with the education system is that it simply tests memorization ability. Kids are not taught to think for themselves or apply what they're learning.

Also there are plenty 30-50 year old people who can't do basic math or tell you how many states there are. You're probably not coming into contact with as many of them because they're working in manufacturing plants or other jobs where they don't deal directly with the public.

[pat_smith1969]

to be honest...
I must admin that I was a bit confused on the number of states...

The whole PR thing gets me confused, I knew they were lobbying to become a state but I didnt know weather or not they were granted statehood. I THINK they are not a state but are affiliated with the US in some way, perhaps a territory? Aruba is also trying to become a state, I think. Hawaii is trying to become independant, while still relying on the US military to protect them.
In the end it all boils down to money, they want to be a state for the federal support (roads and health care). Of course I know nothing of this whole thing (born in Minnesota) and probably just offended many people by accident, sorry.

Anyways I am now done showing off my blinding ignorance, back to feeling superior because I can work on computers....

[waynedunham]

Originally Posted by blade

While I agree with a lot of what has been said I think many of you don't realize how bad your own generation is. This goes for all of us. Every generation has intelligent people and those who are so ignorant it's amazing they can even survive.

Absolutely true, I'm just amazed at how it seems there are a higher percentage of the young ones that fit into this category.

Originally Posted by blade

I've worked with men who never finished high school and men who have their doctorate degrees. I can assure you those with an education aren't always better at their jobs. Common sense and the ability to apply reason and logic goes a long way. It doesn't matter how much a person knows if they can't apply the knowledge in the real world. The biggest problem with the education system is that it simply tests memorization ability. Kids are not taught to think for themselves or apply what they're learning.

Agreed again on both your common sense/reason/logic and memorization points.
I'm a career firefighter and see your first point all the time in my co-workers. We had an officer (retired now) who had a degree from a fancy Ivy League college and tons of certificates from various fire officer classes who I wouldn't want to follow to a trash can fire. He knew what all the books said to do at fires, he just couldn't put it into practice. We used to say that if you could put a fire out by throwing books at it this guy would be the world's best firefighter, but sadly we have to use hoses, axes and other firefighting tools.
He's not the only one, we have quite a few more officers with similar stories.

On the other end of the spectrum we have people who couldn't pass either the written or oral officer exams who were fantastic firefighters who I would follow into any fire. Why? Because while they didn't "test" well, they knew what to do and could use common sense, reason, and logic to adapt to a given scenario.

Our state (CT) keeps saying how their "mastery scores" are going up and up every year. Sadly that's only because the schools are wasting more and more time teaching to the mastery test assuring their scores are good and that the school can be assured to get all their federal dollars. <sigh>

Originally Posted by blade

Also there are plenty 30-50 year old people who can't do basic math or tell you how many states there are. You're probably not coming into contact with as many of them because they're working in manufacturing plants or other jobs where they don't deal directly with the public.

I worked in manufacturing for almost 15 years before becoming a firefighter, so yes I did come into contact with them all the time. Plenty of book smart people who could make a 20 ton machine cower in fear every time they approached it and then you had the people who never finished high school who could probably build a working aircraft out of baling twine and paper clips.

[blade]

Originally Posted by waynedunham

Absolutely true, I'm just amazed at how it seems there are a higher percentage of the young ones that fit into this category.

This may be true, but I hope it only seems this way because the younger ones are more likely to have low paying jobs in the service industry than the older ones. I would like to think there are a good number of the younger generation away at college. I'm probably being overly optimistic though.

I'm a career firefighter and see your first point all the time in my co-workers. We had an officer (retired now) who had a degree from a fancy Ivy League college and tons of certificates from various fire officer classes who I wouldn't want to follow to a trash can fire. He knew what all the books said to do at fires, he just couldn't put it into practice. We used to say that if you could put a fire out by throwing books at it this guy would be the world's best firefighter, but sadly we have to use hoses, axes and other firefighting tools. He's not the only one, we have quite a few more officers with similar stories.

On the other end of the spectrum we have people who couldn't pass either the written or oral officer exams who were fantastic firefighters who I would follow into any fire. Why? Because while they didn't "test" well, they knew what to do and could use common sense, reason, and logic to adapt to a given scenario.

We've always referred to those people as educated idiots.

I've also seen people who are educated and excellent at their jobs, but unable to do anything else. Their skill set is so limited it's scary. I know a 23 year old kid who is the Financial Manager and runs the day to day operations of a +$3 million dollar a year company, but he is unable to fix a leaky faucet. I worked with a 22 year old kid who had just graduated with his B.S. and was the valedictorian of his class. He started telling us how evil credit cards were and how he would never use one. I started talking about cash back rewards, grace periods, floating money and other benefits of using a credit card. He had no clue what I was talking about. I've seen older people who are the same way.

I worked in manufacturing for almost 15 years before becoming a firefighter, so yes I did come into contact with them all the time. Plenty of book smart people who could make a 20 ton machine cower in fear every time they approached it and then you had the people who never finished high school who could probably build a working aircraft out of baling twine and paper clips.

I've seen the same thing. Not only at the laborer level, but also management. Often times the uneducated man who's actually done the jobs is much better qualified to manage or supervise than those who've never ran the machinery before.



My brother-in-law recently got a new 1080P LCD and his buddies came over to help him hang it. None of them had a clue how to connect all the devices. Out of 4 men ranging in age from 27-50 none of them knew anything about the different types of connections and their limitations. It took me all of about 5 minutes. Afterwards one of his friends wanted me to come over to his house and make sure all of his devices were using the best connections and another is planning to build a home theater with 3 TVs (sport nuts) and wanted me to help him.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by blade

I know a 23 year old kid who is the Financial Manager and runs the day to day operations of a +$3 million dollar a year company, but he is unable to fix a leaky faucet.
...
My brother-in-law recently got a new 1080P LCD and his buddies came over to help him hang it. None of them had a clue how to connect all the devices. Out of 4 men ranging in age from 27-50 none of them knew anything about the different types of connections and their limitations. It took me all of about 5 minutes.

There's a difference between 1) not being able to fix a leaky faucet or connect electronic devices via the best connections and 2) graduating school but not being able to make change.

#1 is a matter of never having the experience to do the job -- there are a lot of carpenters in my family, but I've never done that work. Do you think I have any idea how to build a house, like they do? I refuse to even attempt hammering a nail into a cinder block wall while holding the nail.

For #2, the person is supposed to have learned math, but is unable to apply the job of adding/subtracting numbers despite the education.

I worked with a 22 year old kid who had just graduated with his B.S. and was the valedictorian of his class. He started telling us how evil credit cards were and how he would never use one. I started talking about cash back rewards, grace periods, floating money and other benefits of using a credit card. He had no clue what I was talking about.

In my experience, this probably isn't a matter of educaton, but of mis-education. You need more info about the kid's family & the doctrines he grew up with, or maybe the books he has been reading on his own. There is a good chance that he isn't ignorant of credit cards, but has heard much lecturing about the horrors of credit cards and so on. His job, should he choose to accept it, will be to unlearn what has been taught. I know some people taught this kind of stuff & it isn't easy for them to learn to think differently, if they ever do. They have been taught very well and have learned to apply that teaching, despite what anyone may think of what they learned.

Finally, not all 'dumbness' is real. I can speak from personal experience that some teenagers like to pretend to be idiots on some subject to see what reaction they can get from the people around them. I think there was an entire movie about that recently.

... it was also interesting seeing the looks on people's faces on our honeymoon when my wife & I pretended to really argue about whether her vows a couple days earlier had included the word 'obey'.

- Andy

[IncredibleHat]

I think the thread got a little derailed a bit, but its all good stuff. Amazingly, I was half expecting to see a fight break out with conflicting views on this very touchy issue. I didn't read anything that I could disagree with, and most of everything I wanted to say has been said. So I'll just highlight a few.

The worst thing this nation is suffering from, is lack of logic, common sense, and responsibility.

Logic is lost due to lack of decent education practices. Teaching logic is something that can be taught.

Common sense is lost because people simply don't make the effort to simply understand what is in front of them. Teaching common sense is almost nigh impossible, but I like to think there is a way. I would be floored if a class of "Common Sense" was started to be taught in high schools.

Responsiblity. This lacked trait in today's society is a direct result of the lawyers. No one wants to take responsiblity for their actions, so they start to blame the next guy. This leads to a dwindling lack of thought, as "well if it doesnt work, then its that guys fault... fix it for me?"

Personally, I see things going to get worse much worse before getting better. It may blow our mind when someone cant simply understand what to do at a 4-way stop sign, or how to set the clock on their stove... but the reality is, those people exist, and they are breeding. You think they are going to teach their young what they dont know? And you think the pathetic US school system will do it? Ha.

I'm just glad I'm getting old and won't have to see the end of human civilization lol.

[PhillJones]

Originally Posted by SHS

wrong engineers don't think like your joe consumer that part of the problem when come new technology which are more complicated and harder for them engineers to make something for avg Joe consumer to setup and understand with eye q of 2 with new technology hehe.

Dran I miss it oh well but I'm sure it show here
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/36/get_me_the_geeks

As somebody who often has to write computer programs for other people to use I can see that when I've written and designed something, it all seems very simple and obvious to me but when I then hand off this tool I've made to somebody who is equally highly educated but in a different field, they're often flumoxed and it take a while to teach them how to use it.

I think people often don't realize that it seems easy to them because they built the thing.

Certainly when I bought a wireless router and wireless printer, were I not so bloody minded, I'd have taken the damn thing back. Certainly J6P would never have managed it. For a start the drivers that were in the box for the router weren't any good, you needed to update the drivers before it would talk to the PC (54mbps) and the printer (11mbps) simultaneously. Then auto set up between the router and the printer didn't work, to even get to the printers CWS setup page you had to know why a PC with an IP address stating with 192 can't talk to a printer with an IP address starting with 168. Certainly that info wasn't in the manual and the nice gentleman in Bangalore didn't know either.

It's not that these things are impossible to figure out but many people believe that life is too damn short to spend it trawling newsgroups for advice on how to make your bluetooth phone talk to your car stereo.

I often wonder myself if all this mucking about with my HTPC is worth the time, effort and frustration. As somebody who doesn't actually enjoy trying to figure out how to make a computer do something but just wants it to do it and is willing to put in some effort to make it happen. It's a question of when to cut your losses and just take the thing back to the shop or sell it.

BTW I work in a lab, I'm the only physicist, my colleagues are all biologists or MDs. I'm in an odd position, my colleagues think I'm an expert with computers, the IT dept thinks I know nothing. If you're having trouble reconciling my claims to write computer programs with my obvious computational ineptitude, I only write in matlab and IDL.

[lotusvball]

Originally Posted by IncredibleHat

Common sense is lost because people simply don't make the effort to simply understand what is in front of them. Teaching common sense is almost nigh impossible, but I like to think there is a way. I would be floored if a class of "Common Sense" was started to be taught in high schools.

One thing to remember "Common Sense" is all based on your individual experience. What might be common to you is completely foreign to someone else and vice versa.

For most of use in these forums, looking at new programs and understanding how they work is pretty easy. But to someone else that only uses the computer for the bare minimum and has 2 jobs, 2 kids, pets, housework, church life and etc. they just don't have the time to understand how to use simple programs like we do.

Take a car mechanic. Fixing a car for them is simple, but for some of us, completely foreign.

Cooking, same thing.

Not everyone is versed in everything. Yes it is sad that some seniors in high school can't add 2+2. But not everyone is like that. And you can blame it on the education system as much as you want. But my 4 year can add 2+2 and 9+9 and 10-3. And he is starting to read. Why, not because he is genius. No because my wife and I work with him constantly.

It really comes down to personal responsibility. We have completely stopped taking responsibility for our own actions in this country. I am surprised someone has try to sue SageTV for not making their product a certain way.

We saw it when Katrina hit. People were warned and refused to leave. Yes they should have been warned sooner, but they were warned. And the state and local government should have had a better plan in place, but instead they want to blame the federal gov. If people would start taking responsibility for their own actions things would be better. Sorry starting to get off topic.

Common sense is not so common it is experienced.

[IncredibleHat]

Yeah, common sense in the true sense of the term is based on personal experiences. I guess what I was getting at was the ability to look at something completely new to you, and figure out a viable solution by using thought. I guess that could fall under logic.

However you did hit the nail on the head with responsibility.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Opus4

There's a difference between 1) not being able to fix a leaky faucet or connect electronic devices via the best connections and 2) graduating school but not being able to make change.

I agree.

I changed the topic a little and was commenting on how even the more intelligent and educated individuals tend to be very limited in their abilities. In the past men were expected to have a wide range of skills. Today everything is more specialized. Those who only rely on being taught and don't take the initiative or aren't intelligent enough to learn on their own are going to be very limited in their knowledge and abilities.

#1 is a matter of never having the experience to do the job -- there are a lot of carpenters in my family, but I've never done that work. Do you think I have any idea how to build a house, like they do? I refuse to even attempt hammering a nail into a cinder block wall while holding the nail.

That goes back to what I said before about having the ability to figure things out on your own. I would imagine you're intelligent enough to figure out how to do a good bit of carpentry work if you chose to. Some tasks are simple enough that an intelligent person shouldn't require specialized training or exposure. While I agree building an entire house does take training and skill there are many home repairs that are not difficult and easily learned by reading building codes, how to books, doing researching on the internet, or watching a professional.

The kid with the leaky faucet told me he wished he knew how to fix it himself because he didn't want to hire someone for a job that he assumes is a simple task. Instead of taking the opportunity to teach himself something new he hired a plumber. The thing is he wanted to do it himself and couldn't.

While I completely understand hiring someone and not performing tasks yourself I still believe it is important to have a basic understanding of what the task involves. I've always worked hard for my money and don't want to be taken advantage of by someone who can tell I have no understanding of the work I'm paying them to do.

I'm not saying people should be experts at everything. Just that they should make an effort to learn enough about things that directly affect them so that they don't get taken advantage of.

In my experience, this probably isn't a matter of educaton, but of mis-education. You need more info about the kid's family & the doctrines he grew up with, or maybe the books he has been reading on his own. There is a good chance that he isn't ignorant of credit cards, but has heard much lecturing about the horrors of credit cards and so on. His job, should he choose to accept it, will be to unlearn what has been taught. I know some people taught this kind of stuff & it isn't easy for them to learn to think differently, if they ever do. They have been taught very well and have learned to apply that teaching, despite what anyone may think of what they learned.

I understand what you're saying because I grew up hearing the same thing about credit cards. As soon as I was old enough to understand how a loan and interest rates work it didn't take long to realize that I was taught was wrong.

As for this kid he immediately started asking me questions and was shocked to learn what a grace period was. There was no doubt he had next to no understanding of how they worked or how to take advantage of them.

I've just never bought the cop out of not being taught or being taught wrong. The information is available to practically everyone. Whether or not they choose to seek it is their own choice. No one else is to blame if they choose not to educated themselves.

Finally, not all 'dumbness' is real. I can speak from personal experience that some teenagers like to pretend to be idiots on some subject to see what reaction they can get from the people around them. I think there was an entire movie about that recently.

I totally agree, my sister used to pretend to be dumb in front of guys when she was a teenager. It used to piss me off that she would demean herself like that because I knew how intelligent she was. She had a perfect 4.0 in high school and college and scored a 96 out of a 100 on her state board exams.

[blade]

Originally Posted by lotusvball

One thing to remember "Common Sense" is all based on your individual experience. What might be common to you is completely foreign to someone else and vice versa.

I completely agree. That's one reason why I feel it's important for people to make an effort to expand their areas of experience.

Major automotive repair does take training, but common sense (experience from other areas) can be drawn on for many minor repairs and upkeep. The same is true for cooking. Of course we're not all going to be master chefs, but basic reading and measuring skills can be used to follow a recipe and prepare many dishes.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Hi,

Wish I had caught this one. Just checked on sage ( ), but it lists no other showings.

On an intellectual level I know this is mostly true, but having spent so much time with both my Granddads I just cant get my head all the way around this. These guys were survivors of the great depression and the second world war. They always taught me that whatever it is that someone else could do, I could do. I am not in their league, but I like to think I am not too far off. Sure, I have broken/ruined plenty of stuff in an effort to learn, but it has been lots of fun along the way.

How did people become so helpless? Besides, you can learn anything with a high speed connection and the right internet forum.


Jesse

Well, when was the last time you performed surgery? Would you replace your brakes and transmission based on information in a forum?

They guy who works on cars for a living may wonder why people cannot replace their own gaskets.

It never ceases to amaze me how people translate knowledge of computers automatically into intelligence or lack of into ignorance. There are plenty of doctors who don't care about being able to setup wireless networks and they are GREAT doctors.

Can you unclog an artery? No? You must be helpless.
(BTW, I've been writing software for 12 years(C,C++, and Java) and I roll my own machines.)

[jominor]

Originally Posted by PhillJones

As somebody who often has to write computer programs for other people to use I can see that when I've written and designed something, it all seems very simple and obvious to me but when I then hand off this tool I've made to somebody who is equally highly educated but in a different field, they're often flumoxed and it take a while to teach them how to use it.

I think people often don't realize that it seems easy to them because they built the thing.

Certainly when I bought a wireless router and wireless printer, were I not so bloody minded, I'd have taken the damn thing back. Certainly J6P would never have managed it. For a start the drivers that were in the box for the router weren't any good, you needed to update the drivers before it would talk to the PC (54mbps) and the printer (11mbps) simultaneously. Then auto set up between the router and the printer didn't work, to even get to the printers CWS setup page you had to know why a PC with an IP address stating with 192 can't talk to a printer with an IP address starting with 168. Certainly that info wasn't in the manual and the nice gentleman in Bangalore didn't know either.

It's not that these things are impossible to figure out but many people believe that life is too damn short to spend it trawling newsgroups for advice on how to make your bluetooth phone talk to your car stereo.

I often wonder myself if all this mucking about with my HTPC is worth the time, effort and frustration. As somebody who doesn't actually enjoy trying to figure out how to make a computer do something but just wants it to do it and is willing to put in some effort to make it happen. It's a question of when to cut your losses and just take the thing back to the shop or sell it.

BTW I work in a lab, I'm the only physicist, my colleagues are all biologists or MDs. I'm in an odd position, my colleagues think I'm an expert with computers, the IT dept thinks I know nothing. If you're having trouble reconciling my claims to write computer programs with my obvious computational ineptitude, I only write in matlab and IDL.

Also, many aspects of computers are repetition. It is hard NOT to learn say Unix commands when you do them 100 times a day. Not knowing Unix on the commandline is not an indicator of intelligence. I am a SW developer. I've done it for 12 years on Unix and Windows in primarily now Java, but started on C and then C++.

My belief is that many computer people are a bit insecure and take way too much stock in their own intelligence based on knowledge of commands and what is really the persistence needed to setup say a wireless connection. Non-computer people just want it to work and there is nothing wrong with that.