Cable Card Support

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by jbarr

So I read this to mean that if something on machine A gets hosed to the point where it needs to be replaced with machine B or if you want to replace machine A with a more capable machine B, than all recordings recorded by Machine A are rendered useless. Is this correct?

Correct.

thanks,
mike

[paulbeers]

I am very worried about Sage not having a way to record from cable HD. What I am about to say may be blasphemous to some....In the last couple of days I have considered making the switch to Vista Home Premium when it comes out. I have considered buying a Cable Card solution (when they become available) and buying Xbox360's (especially when Microsoft releases their 120 gb ones). I have been waiting for HD extenders and was really excited on Tuesday when I saw the post about Sage adding HD extenders, but now wonder if I will permanently crippled with only OTA HD, and I buy 2-3 HD extenders, will I be happy in a year? 2 years? Will I end up with a lot of hardware I don't use and can't use for anything else, because I went with Sage? I know before I decide to buy an HD extender (I know just two days ago I was ready to buy 2!!), I will need to see either Cablecard or some other option to record from cable (and no I don't just mean unencrypted locals).

Currently if I dumped my Sage setups, I would end up with 200 bucks lost for media extenders and otherwise 3 perfectly good computers. If I buy 2-3 HD exteders, that is at least another 400. If in a year, I left Sage I would end up with 600 dollars in useless hardware (not to mention the fact I would probably want to buy at least 1 more HD tuner). I am at an impasse. I suppose time will tell.

What do you all think?

[Kirby]

I think we need to wait and see what this whole AMD Live announcement is going to do for us!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

I am very worried about Sage not having a way to record from cable HD. What I am about to say may be blasphemous to some....In the last couple of days I have considered making the switch to Vista Home Premium when it comes out. I have considered buying a Cable Card solution (when they become available) and buying Xbox360's (especially when Microsoft releases their 120 gb ones).

You do realize that will require the purchase of an entirely new Vista machine, plus several 360s. Best case scenario, you're probably looking at $3-4k for that ($2k for the PC + $400 * n 360s).

I have been waiting for HD extenders and was really excited on Tuesday when I saw the post about Sage adding HD extenders, but now wonder if I will permanently crippled with only OTA HD, and I buy 2-3 HD extenders, will I be happy in a year? 2 years?

Will you be happy if you buy Vista+360's?

Will I end up with a lot of hardware I don't use and can't use for anything else, because I went with Sage? I know before I decide to buy an HD extender (I know just two days ago I was ready to buy 2!!), I will need to see either Cablecard or some other option to record from cable (and no I don't just mean unencrypted locals).

FWIW, if CableCard was a big deal, I'd just abandon PCs all together. The requirements for CableCard are going to lock down your recordings so much that having them on a PC won't get you anything.

As far as CableCard goes, the retail Moxi looks like the optimal solution.

Currently if I dumped my Sage setups, I would end up with 200 bucks lost for media extenders and otherwise 3 perfectly good computers.

You realize that with CableCard, even with Vista, you'll be unable to watch recordings on 2 of those.

If I buy 2-3 HD exteders, that is at least another 400. If in a year, I left Sage I would end up with 600 dollars in useless hardware (not to mention the fact I would probably want to buy at least 1 more HD tuner). I am at an impasse. I suppose time will tell.

What do you all think?

Switch to Dish Network and get a couple of R5000 modded boxes. CableCard is a mess, a mess so bad I don't think it's worth going down the PC path with it.

[flavius]

When I will replace my ailing HTPC later this year, it's likely to be replaced by a new generation Mac mini.

It certainly doesn't look like as if any pc-based HD solution is going anywhere. Does it?

[Diginerd]

Hmm, just had a thought...

Isn't Sage going to be releasing a complete server (ie hardware, OS & Software) soon? Could it be running Vista a new sage and support cable card as it's a brand new self contained OEM product? Now THAT would be a creative way out of this dogs dinner of a situation. Assuming of course it was fiscally prudent for Frey to get the certification and jump through the DRM hoops?

If that was the case sign me up for one with 3 cable cards in it.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Diginerd

Hmm, just had a thought...

Isn't Sage going to be releasing a complete server (ie hardware, OS & Software) soon? Could it be running Vista a new sage and support cable card as it's a brand new self contained OEM product? Now THAT would be a creative way out of this dogs dinner of a situation. Assuming of course it was fiscally prudent for Frey to get the certification and jump through the DRM hoops?

If that was the case sign me up for one with 3 cable cards in it.

Nothing with a PCI bus that carries data in the clear can qualify for cablecard certification.

I don't think this will happen.

Thanks,
Mike

[Jesse]

Hi,

I think stanger has it right. Cable card is so fubar that it is pretty much useless. I have been with D* for ten years, but if a reasonable cable card solution came along I would eat my words (a bunch of them) and go with comcast.

It just looks like they are being dragged kicking and screaming into this whole thing. M$ should have just told cable labs to pack sand and worked with D* and E* to develop some sort of reasonable pc based tuners. I keep hoping, probably in vain, that something will happen with this....

Jesse

[dbfresh23]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Hi,

I think stanger has it right. Cable card is so fubar that it is pretty much useless. I have been with D* for ten years, but if a reasonable cable card solution came along I would eat my words (a bunch of them) and go with comcast.

From what I understand the D* tuner solution is in private beta testing and could be out sometime this year. D* won't have to answer to cablelabs, so it may be worth it to stick it out with D*. Their newest HD DVR can already work with PCs as they have recently enabled the ethernet on it and provided software to work with VIIV PCs - though people claim to have it working with non VIIV PCs as well.

[mikesm]

Another solution is coming soon. I talked with the Fujitsu folks about their new h.264 encoder chip. It can encode analog HD (that's right, via component) to h.264 in realtime, and do it with a sub $100 part.

Now, the current chip can only do 1440x1080. It sscales HD to this resolution, and then encodes. Good for directv customers, but you lose a lot of quality if you have true 1080i.

But, the Fujitsu rep said they have a 2nd part coming in 3Q that will be able to encode 1920x1080, full HD, in realtime.

The market is for wireless HD extenders, but they are also willing to sell it to folks to build HD PVR cards, etc...

With this 2nd chip, we may have a good HD encoding option for analog HD capture. Not as elegant, but if cablecard on PC's is as gelded as it looks, then this may be a decent alternative, and we can live with the R5000-Hd in the interim.

Thanks,
Mike

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Another solution is coming soon. I talked with the Fujitsu folks about their new h.264 encoder chip. It can encode analog HD (that's right, via component) to h.264 in realtime, and do it with a sub $100 part.

Now, the current chip can only do 1440x1080. It sscales HD to this resolution, and then encodes. Good for directv customers, but you lose a lot of quality if you have true 1080i.

But, the Fujitsu rep said they have a 2nd part coming in 3Q that will be able to encode 1920x1080, full HD, in realtime.

The market is for wireless HD extenders, but they are also willing to sell it to folks to build HD PVR cards, etc...

With this 2nd chip, we may have a good HD encoding option for analog HD capture. Not as elegant, but if cablecard on PC's is as gelded as it looks, then this may be a decent alternative, and we can live with the R5000-Hd in the interim.

Thanks,
Mike

Isnt this just going to force the hand of the content providers to turn on down-rezzing of analog outputs (component)???

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Isnt this just going to force the hand of the content providers to turn on down-rezzing of analog outputs (component)???

Heh... Turing off HD on the millions of cable boxes now that output 1080i over component to TV's will be very painful. The content guys don't control this, it's the cable and DBS networks.

Remember, HDMI and even DVI interconnects are relatively new.


Thanks,
Mike

[Kirby]

So long as my component only HDTV doesnt become obsolete right now, I'm all for the capture solution!

[paulbeers]

Alright, I won't freak out right now about the whole HD thing. Like I said, I love Sage, but it worries me if we end up a product that can only do OTA HD (okay and QAM but still just the locals) and analog basic channels. Even with capture of 1440x1080, I would still be VERY happy and would buy one in a heart beat. I know it is only a matter of time before my wife wants HD discovery running through Sage (especially if I buy HD extenders). Just stating that "Sage can't do that"...only gives me the response of "why not?"....

[Jesse]

dbfresh23 said:
From what I understand the D* tuner solution is in private beta testing and could be out sometime this year. D* won't have to answer to cablelabs, so it may be worth it to stick it out with D*. Their newest HD DVR can already work with PCs as they have recently enabled the ethernet on it and provided software to work with VIIV PCs - though people claim to have it working with non VIIV PCs as well.

Re: the newest HD DVR. I have one of these units (something of a concession to WAF) and it is not too bad. How about some links to this info.

TIA

Jesse

[gblinckmann]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Isnt this just going to force the hand of the content providers to turn on down-rezzing of analog outputs (component)???

I'm hoping that this is more going to force the hand of the cable companies to have a more reasonable CableCard policy. Requiring CableLabs-certified tuners but allowing connections to any DVR software and to any USB2 computer.

I could see where this chip, along with pressure from satellite and IPTV vendors, breaks cable's stranglehold on the consumers for HDTV content.

[gblinckmann]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You do realize that will require the purchase of an entirely new Vista machine, plus several 360s. Best case scenario, you're probably looking at $3-4k for that ($2k for the PC + $400 * n 360s).

I started adding this up in my head and very quickly came to the realization that there is nothing on TV that's worth that sort of money! Now, two Sage HD extenders and an HDHomeRun tuner I can swallow. If I can move Sage to a Windows Home Server, all the better. I have four TV's (2 HD & 2 SD) in my house, so they'll be all covered this way with the new equipment.

You know, it's not just the initial investment, either. These things need upgrades, too. With Vista's CableCard solution, you pretty much have to figure on another $2k in another few years just to keep up. And you can't just upgrade a part here and there, either. There will just have to be a better HD solution that all the DVR software will be able use in the future.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by gblinckmann

I'm hoping that this is more going to force the hand of the cable companies to have a more reasonable CableCard policy. Requiring CableLabs-certified tuners but allowing connections to any DVR software and to any USB2 computer.

I think the best/most we can hope for is that CableLabs backs down the requirements such that there's a list of "CableCard certified" components (ie certified DVR software, HDCP video cards, etc) and that they allow us to piece together our own system out of "certified" components.

I could see where this chip, along with pressure from satellite and IPTV vendors, breaks cable's stranglehold on the consumers for HDTV content.

I think that may well have been broken long ago, Satellite and OTA have been the way to go for HD for quite a while. And if DirecTV isn't all talk, they're going to be putting cable to shame with 10-20x the number of HD channels available. I'm just hoping Dish picks up all the new "major" nationals DTV is claiming.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I think that may well have been broken long ago, Satellite and OTA have been the way to go for HD for quite a while. And if DirecTV isn't all talk, they're going to be putting cable to shame with 10-20x the number of HD channels available. I'm just hoping Dish picks up all the new "major" nationals DTV is claiming.

I guess if E* and D* do decide to do a sharing system for HDTV, that would benefit us, and anyone wanting HD from satellite via R5000. All those channels only on D* wont do diddly because of no MPEG-4 R5000 unit for D*.

As for the "all talk" thing... makes you wonder if thats all it is, given the "100 HD channels by year end" statement was incorrect (referring to 12-31-06). Of course Dish has some upcoming bandwidth too, if they actually won all 10 of those DBS Expansion band locations, and can get a bird in them. In order to keep the slots, they have to have them in use within 5 years I believe. Rough math equates to 640 MPEG-2 HD channels over all 10 locations, assuming no spot beams. Thats a lot of HD! I just hope some of it comes true!

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Kirby

I guess if E* and D* do decide to do a sharing system for HDTV, that would benefit us, and anyone wanting HD from satellite via R5000. All those channels only on D* wont do diddly because of no MPEG-4 R5000 unit for D*.

As for the "all talk" thing... makes you wonder if thats all it is, given the "100 HD channels by year end" statement was incorrect (referring to 12-31-06). Of course Dish has some upcoming bandwidth too, if they actually won all 10 of those DBS Expansion band locations, and can get a bird in them. In order to keep the slots, they have to have them in use within 5 years I believe. Rough math equates to 640 MPEG-2 HD channels over all 10 locations, assuming no spot beams. Thats a lot of HD! I just hope some of it comes true!

DirecTV hit their goal of 100+ HD channels last year. Most are HD locals, which Dish doesn't have capacity to carry.

DirecTV is likely to be the long term survivor in the DBS industry. They have spent 3+ BILLION on new Ka band spacecraft that can support tons of HD programming, along with HD locals. Two of these have yet to be launched, and one has is all MPEG-4.

They are pressing this advantage and inking deals with national programmers to get more national HD content, because they believe they will trash dish and the cable guys with the new bird's capacity.

Charlie (Ergen - CEO of DISHTV) was at CES and made some lame comments about "his subs just wnat simple TV, no nfrills, etc...", basically implying they were cheap and uninterested in HD. Remember he got all that HD capacity by buying the Voom assets and transponders. He aslo was complaining of how the FCC lets everyone else merge b ut not DTV and Echostar. He's in the market to sell, has slots but no $$$ budgeted for new spacecraft, and a deal with AT&T that likely makes them the new owner when they realize how hosed U-verse is.

The R5000 doesn't work on the new DTV box because of how they designed the STB, but we can hope the new PC option will make it unecessary.

Believe me, I know the management team at DTV, they intend to be the premier video supplier in the US, and have the money and programming connections to make it so. Don't count them out.

Thanks,
Mike