Cable Card Support

[ikarus79m]

Now with various cable card announcements at CES for Windows Vista (link 1, link 2) how are the chances of "hacks" that this could be used with SageTV under Windows Vista as well?

It really ticks me off, that only "authorized" Windows Vista machines will be able to access cable card boxes. There should be a "workaround" at some point shouldn't there?

[dbfresh23]

VWB's website says they will be demoing the MR6000 at CES and that it'll be available Q1 07. Best of all it seems they've lowered the MSRB from $1299 to $899!

[CanadianEh]

I'm hoping this 'ceritifed' stuff ends up being as easy to get around as purchasing 'OEM' software back in the day.

BTW, who is VWB? Link?

[dbfresh23]

http://www.mediareadyinc.com/products_MRMC.php

This newest model was supposed to include cablecard support. Reading through it now, they seem to have removed any reference to cablecard, makes me think that maybe they ditched support for it - which could be the reason behind the drastic price reduction...

[lobosrul]

Only a 200GB HDD? Come on 400GB's are now barely over $100.

[jbarr]

Doh!

I was just going to start a new post when I saw this thread....

Anyway, I just read an interesting article at Twice.com talking about how Digeo, the maker of the Moxi HD DVR, will be selling them through retailers--a departure from their distribution exclusively through cable companies. Being a former Moxi user and proponent, this was interesting, but what really intrigues me (now that I'm an avid SageTV fan) is mention of a their use of a "MultiStream CableCARD", usable due to an FCC mandate taking effect in July. According to the article, this rules change states,

"cable operators will be required to separate conditional access systems from cable boxes and support all third-party digital cable-ready products with CableCARDs."

So what does this mean for SageTV users?

What does this mean for existing cable customers like me who currently rely on a DCT-2000 cable box?

Will hardware manufacturers begin releasing any PC products that will allow recording via CableCARD? I read that Windows will only support CableCARD through Vista, and it will only support Windows Media Player. (This was a speculative blurb that I read, so I don't know how true it is.)

[ikarus79m]

Could we get some comment from Sage on Cable Cards? What is your opinion on this? Will there be a chance that SageTV will be certified for CableCard? Otherwise Windows Vista will have a real advantage for the first time...

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by ikarus79m

Could we get some comment from Sage on Cable Cards? What is your opinion on this? Will there be a chance that SageTV will be certified for CableCard? Otherwise Windows Vista will have a real advantage for the first time...

The device requires HDCP compliance. That says to me theres no way Sage will be able to use it.

This is going to be very much a closed sytem.

You probably wont be able to:

Move recorded tv to another PC.
Burn recorded tv to DVD for playback on any DVD player.
Compress recorded tv.
Detect commercials with Showanalyzer/Comskip.
Have unlimited playback. Some channels might require recorded tv to be deleted after a set number of viewings or a certain timelimit.

I bet I'm right on at least 4/5 of those.

[ikarus79m]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

The device requires HDCP compliance. That says to me theres no way Sage will be able to use it.

This is going to be very much a closed sytem.

You probably wont be able to:

Move recorded tv to another PC.
Burn recorded tv to DVD for playback on any DVD player.
Compress recorded tv.
Detect commercials with Showanalyzer/Comskip.
Have unlimited playback. Some channels might require recorded tv to be deleted after a set number of viewings or a certain timelimit.

I bet I'm right on at least 4/5 of those.

So that pretty much seems in about a year or two, when DirecTV has moved 100-200 channels to HD, and people want to see them, that SageTV will become obsolete and be driven out of the market.

[lobosrul]

Im not sure Sage will be killed.

For one this device (I think) is cable only, not Sat. The r5000 is still a viable solution for that.

There are also still a lot of people out there that dont care about Hi-def. And there are also people like me that are sick of giving his cable co lots of $$$, and are going to be OTA only.... of course come next fall I'll really want ESPN/NFL Network for football.

Also stanger posted a link of a new chip that will do (relatively) cheap mpeg-4 encoding of raw HD component feeds. WTH does that mean you ask? It means you can plugin any box that outputs on component to your pc for HD feeds that are totally in the clear. So unless the "analog hole" is closed that will work. Who knows if, or when, a consumer card with this chip will be available though.

And of course Sage might be working on getting an HDCP license. They wont get it with Sage in its current form however.

[ikarus79m]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Im not sure Sage will be killed.

For one this device (I think) is cable only, not Sat. The r5000 is still a viable solution for that.

There are also still a lot of people out there that dont care about Hi-def. And there are also people like me that are sick of giving his cable co lots of $$$, and are going to be OTA only.... of course come next fall I'll really want ESPN/NFL Network for football.

Also stanger posted a link of a new chip that will do (relatively) cheap mpeg-4 encoding of raw HD component feeds. WTH does that mean you ask? It means you can plugin any box that outputs on component to your pc for HD feeds that are totally in the clear. So unless the "analog hole" is closed that will work. Who know if, or when, a consumer card with this chip will be available though.

And of course Sage might be working on getting an HDCP license. They wont get it with Sage in its current form however.

OR

there will be a hack sometime soon that allows us all to use CableCards in any system we like.... How about that? ;-)

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jbarr

So what does this mean for SageTV users?

It means not a whole lot. At the moment, it seems CableLabs only certifies "systems", not components, that means you have to buy a complete, pre-built system if you want CC (ie the MediaReady, Vista machine, etc)

What does this mean for existing cable customers like me who currently rely on a DCT-2000 cable box?

It means, were you to get a CC compliant device (eg a TV), you could use that instead of your DCT-2000 and they'd have to give you cablecard for it.

Will hardware manufacturers begin releasing any PC products that will allow recording via CableCARD?

Dell is supposed to be shipping Vista MCE CC systems this month.

I read that Windows will only support CableCARD through Vista, and it will only support Windows Media Player. (This was a speculative blurb that I read, so I don't know how true it is.)

Vista is the only "open" system approved for CC at the moment, the only one with the necessary security mechanisms.

What remains to be seen, is just how the "system certification" will be enforced. For example, will you be able to buy CC tuners "OEM". Assuming you can, and you buy all the pieces necessary to for a certified system, how will that be handled. Will it be special, certified drivers, will it be on the heads of the installers to only install into a "know" configuration.

There are a lot of questions regarding the DIY-ability of CC on the PC. One thing is certain, without some (probably significant) modifications, even on Vista, Sage won't be able to use a CC tuner.

Right now, the only safe answer WRT CC, is that you have to buy a prebuilt, pre-certified system if you want CC. And so far, that means Vista MCE from someone like Dell, a VWB/Mediaready system, or something like an S3 Tivo or Moxi.

[JParedis]

Being a European cable user, I'm afraid I may not correctly read this cablecard issue.

European (Belgium) status: Analog cable companies are moving into Digital, requiring an STB. This STB requires a card to be entered to 'decode' the digital signal (idential setup for sattelite). Is that card what is being referred to as cablecard? Or is it an even more closed system?

As http://www.twinhan.com/ does seem to have PC cards supporting these cards for satellite and cable, I assuming I'm wrong. Would like to understand the US setup/status, as you are ahead in this game and I would like to understand before it comes here (so I can be prepared with the right equipment ). I'm looking to move my PC into digital and had already a post about it - wondering how SageTV will react on this development.

(notice I'm not even mentioning HD, as only recently HD ready TV sets are hitting the market here - so it will be still some while before actual HD is available)

Jan

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by JParedis

Being a European cable user, I'm afraid I may not correctly read this cablecard issue.

European (Belgium) status: Analog cable companies are moving into Digital, requiring an STB. This STB requires a card to be entered to 'decode' the digital signal (idential setup for sattelite). Is that card what is being referred to as cablecard? Or is it an even more closed system?

No, in Europe, you guys use DVB-C and CAM/CI modules. CableCard, while having many similarities in function and form factor, is completely different.

As http://www.twinhan.com/ does seem to have PC cards supporting these cards for satellite and cable, I assuming I'm wrong. Would like to understand the US setup/status, as you are ahead in this game and I would like to understand before it comes here (so I can be prepared with the right equipment ). I'm looking to move my PC into digital and had already a post about it - wondering how SageTV will react on this development.

There are lots of cards that support the European CAM/CI system, the ATI is the only CableCard solution.

[stanger89]

It would appear we have our answer about how CableCard will be limited to pre-built systems:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9415418

We also found out that in case you're thinking about buying PC with the tuner in order to use it on another system, you'll find CableLabs standing in your way. In order to get permission to sell the a PC with the TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner, each PC vendor must submit a letter to CableLabs requesting certification. In exchange, CableLabs provides custom BIOS software, which closes the encryption loop. Without that custom BIOS, you're out of luck.

Lots of interesting info in that thread. Basically CableCard is horribly, horrbly crippled by DRM to the point that it's almost useless.

More interesting tidbits from said thread:

I talked to the MSFT Vista folks re: cablecard today. It's a pretty bad situation. here are some of the restrictions:

1) Vista system A has cablecard and record program to NAS storage. Vista machine B which also has cable card (a different card) cannot playback recorded programming from A, and vice versa. Playback only occurs on the system it was recorded on.

2) Vista can stream cablecard content to the Xbox 360, but if the digital path is not fully protected, the video is downrezzed to prevent copying.

3) The Vista and OCUR licenses are tied together. The cablecard will only on an ocur that is tied together with a new OEM version of vista. If the computer that OCUR is plugged into dies, you can restore from a backup and be able to access all your archived cablecarde content. But if you replace it with another OEM machine (say a newer model to replace the dead old model) then you lose access to the recorded video.

I guess what I was beginning to suspect is true. CableCard support brings too much baggage to be worth it.

R5000 is definitely the way to go.

[Naylia]

Hmm...I don't know. Does the custom BIOS check to make sure that not a single hardware component has changed? Or that you haven't added any hardware? I can't imagine Dell selling a PC that can have no upgrades made to it. I suspect a custom BIOS for a custom Mobo that has hardware DRM built-in. Might be able to get away with using the mobo and tuner in another system as long as you keep both together.

[Kirby]

Do you suppose MS i just basically giving up on CC overall, and concentrating on the new Microsoft TV IPTV stuff? The video I watched yesterday of IPTV on the XBOX looked pretty cool, of course getting ATT U-verse here will happen right after I see pigs fly.

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by stanger89

1) Vista system A has cablecard and record program to NAS storage. Vista machine B which also has cable card (a different card) cannot playback recorded programming from A, and vice versa. Playback only occurs on the system it was recorded on.

So I read this to mean that if something on machine A gets hosed to the point where it needs to be replaced with machine B or if you want to replace machine A with a more capable machine B, than all recordings recorded by Machine A are rendered useless. Is this correct?

[mikejaner]

The way I see it, things will happen one of two ways, and most likely the first.

1: People who know what they are doing, will purchase these Vista Cable Card systems and they will figure out how to utilize the cable card for Sage, MediaPortal GBPVR ETC..... within Vista after disabling Vista Media Center.

2: Somebody will figure out how to bypass the custom bios and make it so the Cable Card thinks it's in the original system. Then they would have to figure out how to interface with the card.

I can't imagine these Cable Card "Cards" will be tied down for long, in the sense that you will not be able to purchase them from whatever grey area resellers. There have to be replacement cards being made, and Cable Labs would be totally overwhelmed if they have to certify each box etc... and recertify over and over for replacements etc.... I think we are going to find out about a loophole somewhere.

IMHO

Mike

[JUC]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/08/a...-media-server/

if i'm reading this right (probably not) then the AMD Live server will support cable cards. AND---if sage partnered with them and sagetv is available on that platform (check announcements) then does this mean cablecard for sage?!?
Juc