Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[Narflex]

Originally Posted by chadman

I do not remember customer support ever looking at this board to help beta users. Chad

OK, technically I'm not customer support but I am reading this beta thread to help out beta users and ensure the V6 release is as solid as it can be.

[chadman]

Originally Posted by nielm

Look for posts by Narflex, Opus4 and Donkey in the beta forum. Admittedly, these are not Sage customer support, but they are the developers, and they are usually asking people to submit bug reports

Ok I was not saying I did not get any help from the forum. Most every question I have had has been answered here. Just agreeing with bbobbo’s point about how we had to monitor the beta forum to get a discount, but “Sage employed” tech support does not monitor this forum, or if they do they do not respond to questions. I am not saying I blame them. It is hard to support and track problems via a forum. It is also hard for customer to track an introductory price offer via a forum. Chad

[chadman]

Originally Posted by Narflex

OK, technically I'm not customer support but I am reading this beta thread to help out beta users and ensure the V6 release is as solid as it can be.

CTO is not even close to customer support. CTO is just a fancy name from “useless overhead”. Ok J/K, I do get a see a lot of feedback from you too and I guess you are employed by Sage:-) Chad

[corykim]

chadman, that joke wasn't even funny. You just went from having a legitimate complaint, an opinion about which I shared, to being a crank in the space of two posts.

[Mark SS]

Originally Posted by chadman

Ok J/K, I do get a see a lot of feedback from you too and I guess you are employed by Sage:-) Chad

To all intents and purposes Jeff/Narflex is SageTV. He owns it and wrote the majority of it

[blade]

Originally Posted by chadman

It is also hard for customer to track an introductory price offer via a forum.

Did you ever think Sage offered the discount price for the early beta only on the forums because they want test users who are more familiar with current problems, fixes, and common user errors? Common sense says users who frequent the forums are most likely going to be more helpful than someone who rarely visit the forums. I'm sure they don't want all their users to switch over to the new beta and then flooding them with "bug reports" and questions that aren't really beta specific, but rather user error or other known problems.

[blade]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

To all intents and purposes Jeff/Narflex is SageTV. He owns it and wrote the majority of it

I think that might also qualify him as more than "useless overhead".

[chadman]

Originally Posted by corykim

chadman, that joke wasn't even funny. You just went from having a legitimate complaint, an opinion about which I shared, to being a crank in the space of two posts.

Ummm it was a joke..hence the J/K. Chad

[Oats]

I think this should have been posted in the SageTV Announcements forum.

Anyway I just have a few questions that I didn't see answered.

1. Will there always be an upgrade price available when a new version comes out?

2. Will the future upgrade prices only be available for owners of the last version? Will there be an upgrade for pre-v6 to v7 or will pre-v6 users have to pay full price to get v7?

[ke6guj]

I am going to be setting up a Sage box for my parents in the very near future, and would like to purchase a full v6 license. Yes, I know that a current V5 license will work in V6, but you never know what the future will hold in regards to later upgrades.

I would hate to hear that V6 users would get a free upgrade to V7 but that people who bought a V5 license when V6 was already out in beta, would need to pay for an upgrade.

I originally bought my first license during the V2 days, and did not complain that there was an upgrade fee to V6. It's just now, that there is a precedent for FREE or PAID upgrades, I'd like to be sure to get the latest version license to "future-proof" as much as possible.

[bbobbo]

Originally Posted by blade

Did you ever think Sage offered the discount price for the early beta only on the forums because they want test users who are more familiar with current problems, fixes, and common user errors? Common sense says users who frequent the forums are most likely going to be more helpful than someone who rarely visit the forums. I'm sure they don't want all their users to switch over to the new beta and then flooding them with "bug reports" and questions that aren't really beta specific, but rather user error or other known problems.

if i read narflex's original post in this thread correctly, this thread has nothing to do about beta testing--it's announcing a change in the upgrade policy. shouldn't everyone be notified of this change, not just beta users? at the least, this thread should be in the "sagetv announcements" forum; ideally, all current sage users should have been notified via email.

as for not wanting to get flooded with bug reports by new users trying to install beta 6, sagetv could have sent out a general email to everyone saying something like, "version 6 is not yet available, but for a limited time, you can upgrade your license for a discounted price of $29.99." they wouldn't even have to mention that a beta was available. the only way you would find out a beta exists would be if you visited the forums.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by bbobbo

if i read narflex's original post in this thread correctly, this thread has nothing to do about beta testing--it's announcing a change in the upgrade policy. shouldn't everyone be notified of this change, not just beta users? at the least, this thread should be in the "sagetv announcements" forum; ideally, all current sage users should have been notified via email.

It probably will be once the final production version of Sage 6 is available.

Gerry

[blade]

Originally Posted by bbobbo

if i read narflex's original post in this thread correctly, this thread has nothing to do about beta testing--it's announcing a change in the upgrade policy. shouldn't everyone be notified of this change, not just beta users? at the least, this thread should be in the "sagetv announcements" forum; ideally, all current sage users should have been notified via email.

Sigh.....must things be written out specifically? I never said it was specifically an offer for beta testers, but if you look at where the offer was posted and the time frame it was offered it seems pretty clear it was geared as an incentive to get people onboard early that would be able to help iron out the bugs.

as for not wanting to get flooded with bug reports by new users trying to install beta 6, sagetv could have sent out a general email to everyone saying something like, "version 6 is not yet available, but for a limited time, you can upgrade your license for a discounted price of $29.99." they wouldn't even have to mention that a beta was available. the only way you would find out a beta exists would be if you visited the forums.

Then you start getting all the questions about when is v6 going to be released. I deserve to know because I paid for the upgrade already. There have already been a few posts like this already. Sending it out to everyone would surely have led to many more.

I agree you could run a prepaid ad campaign and offer a discount, but personally I wouldn't do that until it was very close to a final release or you'd have a lot of impatient customers.

[bbobbo]

Originally Posted by blade

Sigh.....must things be written out specifically? I never said it was specifically an offer for beta testers, but if you look at where the offer was posted and the time frame it was offered it seems pretty clear it was geared as an incentive to get people onboard early that would be able to help iron out the bugs.

i understand what you're trying to say, but you're missing my point. the main point of this thread is not about beta testing, and it's not about the special offer, which isn't even mentioned in the original post anymore. this thread is about the new upgrade policy for version 6, and one of my points is that all users deserve to know what the new policy is, not just users who frequent the beta testing forum.

Then you start getting all the questions about when is v6 going to be released. I deserve to know because I paid for the upgrade already. There have already been a few posts like this already. Sending it out to everyone would surely have led to many more.

there is an easy way for sagetv to deal with those posts--ignore them and let other users respond.

I agree you could run a prepaid ad campaign and offer a discount, but personally I wouldn't do that until it was very close to a final release or you'd have a lot of impatient customers.

this is what sagetv could have done:

1) set up the version 6 beta so that current license holders can use it. announce the availability of the version 6 beta only in the beta testing forum. since people have not paid anything for upgrading to version 6, they cannot reasonably demand any support for version 6 beta problems.

2) when version 6 final is released, make an announcement to everyone about the new version. announce the new upgrade policy and the requirement for a new version 6 license. offer everyone the limited-time upgrade to version 6 for $29.99.

[blade]

Originally Posted by bbobbo

i understand what you're trying to say, but you're missing my point. the main point of this thread is not about beta testing, and it's not about the special offer, which isn't even mentioned in the original post anymore. this thread is about the new upgrade policy for version 6, and one of my points is that all users deserve to know what the new policy is, not just users who frequent the beta testing forum.

No I see your point and as gplasky said, once v6 is released it probably will be posted in other forums and I would imagine emails sent out. My point is why is it so important that Sage run around trying to inform every user of their product about an upgrade fee for a product that isn't even available yet. It's not like they're trying to hide it or secretly bill users for the upgrade. They'll of course have to be informed before they upgrade. Everyone has access to this forum and people have posted in other forums about the new policy when people ask. I'm not saying it would be a terrible thing to post in the announcement forum. I just fail to see why it's so crucial that you think users deserve to know. It just seems like a big deal about nothing, but that's just my opinion.

there is an easy way for sagetv to deal with those posts--ignore them and let other users respond.

They do, but it's still sets a bad tone for the forum.

this is what sagetv could have done:

1) set up the version 6 beta so that current license holders can use it. announce the availability of the version 6 beta only in the beta testing forum. since people have not paid anything for upgrading to version 6, they cannot reasonably demand any support for version 6 beta problems.

2) when version 6 final is released, make an announcement to everyone about the new version. announce the new upgrade policy and the requirement for a new version 6 license. offer everyone the limited-time upgrade to version 6 for $29.99.

1) Sage would need a way to deactivate the beta or else some people would just run it instead of paying for the upgrade later. Someone also said there were more security concerns when having a free beta. Personally I don't know anything about cracking software so I don't know.

It doesn't matter what people can reasonably demand. People make unreasonable demands everyday. Not to mention Sage wants people to file bug reports so they can troubleshoot, but at the same time I'm guessing they don't want to get reports due to simple user error from someone that set Sage up once a year or two ago and haven't look at it since.

2) If Sage wanted to offer the discount to everyone I assume that's what they would do. I guess I just don't see it as a horrible thing to offer a discount in a location that rewards those who frequent the forum and take an active interest in helping develop the product and aiding other users.

They could have also just said there was a $39.99 upgrade fee and not offered a discount. You know what they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Maybe next time they won't make the mistake of having a limited time discount.

[bbobbo]

Originally Posted by blade

I'm not saying it would be a terrible thing to post in the announcement forum. I just fail to see why it's so crucial that you think users deserve to know. It just seems like a big deal about nothing, but that's just my opinion.

well, we can agree to disagree on this point.

Originally Posted by blade

They do, but it's still sets a bad tone for the forum.

i'm not sure how this is different from the way things are now. it's what's going on with the very discussion that we're having right now. has sagetv responded to any of my posts? no--you and some other users have responded either to agree or disagree. do you think they're setting a bad tone by not responding to me? while it would be nice if they did, i don't expect a response from them, because i know that this is a "sagetv community forum" and not a "sagetv official support forum".

Originally Posted by blade

1) Sage would need a way to deactivate the beta or else some people would just run it instead of paying for the upgrade later. Someone also said there were more security concerns when having a free beta. Personally I don't know anything about cracking software so I don't know.

i'm not saying a free beta which anyone could install. i'm saying that version 6 beta could use the same license key verification that v5 currently uses--that way, only people who have already previously paid for a license could install it.

sure, current license holders could just install the version 6 beta and not bother with upgrading to the final version. but that means they would be stuck with buggy code, and they would not have access to any future improvements after version 6 final is released. personally, i can't imagine that any current user would settle for a beta version. if they are willing to deal with that, then more power to them!

this may be a little more complicated than necessary (although changing the license verification code for version 6 final really shouldn't be too difficult), but this is to address your point that sagetv wants only experienced users (i.e., not first time users) to test out the beta.

Originally Posted by blade

It doesn't matter what people can reasonably demand. People make unreasonable demands everyday. Not to mention Sage wants people to file bug reports so they can troubleshoot, but at the same time I'm guessing they don't want to get reports due to simple user error from someone that set Sage up once a year or two ago and haven't look at it since.

i think the system i proposed wouldn't lead to any more of these types of reports over what they are currently getting. as i said, they could have announced the new upgrade policy without mentioning the existence of any beta. only people who actively look for the beta would know about it, the same as it is right now.

Originally Posted by blade

2) If Sage wanted to offer the discount to everyone I assume that's what they would do. I guess I just don't see it as a horrible thing to offer a discount in a location that rewards those who frequent the forum and take an active interest in helping develop the product and aiding other users.

i have no problem if sagetv wants to reward only beta testers. perhaps they could implement some sort of system to issue a one-time use promotional code that the user gets after installing a beta version.

but as it was, anyone who happened to see the announcement during the offer period, whether they were interested in testing out the beta or not, got the opportunity for the discount.

Originally Posted by blade

They could have also just said there was a $39.99 upgrade fee and not offered a discount. You know what they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Maybe next time they won't make the mistake of having a limited time discount.

i'm not sure if you're referring to me, but i don't think i'm "punishing" sagetv. i have no problems with the new upgrade policy. i love the sagetv program and will continue using it, i think sagetv is a great company, and i would recommend their products to anyone.

the purpose of this thread is to discuss the new upgrade policy, so that's what i'm doing (well, not the upgrade policy per se, but the way it was announced). i'm just stating my disappointment about not being notified about the upgrade policy and not being given the same opportunity to benefit from the discount. i don't think i made any demands, only suggestions as to how sagetv might want to improve the upgrade process next time. sagetv can choose to listen or ignore me.

[blade]

Originally Posted by bbobbo

i'm not sure how this is different from the way things are now. it's what's going on with the very discussion that we're having right now. has sagetv responded to any of my posts? no--you and some other users have responded either to agree or disagree. do you think they're setting a bad tone by not responding to me? while it would be nice if they did, i don't expect a response from them, because i know that this is a "sagetv community forum" and not a "sagetv official support forum".

I wasn't saying Sage not responding sets a bad tone. I meant having numerous posters complaining sets one. As you said this discussion is a perfect example. There is nothing positive coming from it.

If a prospective customer comes to the forum to check out the product and sees dozens of threads with people complaining they purchased the product and Sage hasn't released it yet, demanding release dates, and talking about how they got screwed over it is going to make people very hesitant about purchasing the product. It doesn't matter how good a company is or whether or not the accusations are true. Potential customers are more likely to move on to another product than to really read up and find out what is actually going on.

If you don't believe it happens just look at companies that give specific release dates and how buggy their products tend to be (PS3 for example), how upset customers get when you can't meet the deadline, or for publicly held companies how hard their stock falls when they fail to meet a release date.

i'm not saying a free beta which anyone could install. i'm saying that version 6 beta could use the same license key verification that v5 currently uses--that way, only people who have already previously paid for a license could install it.

sure, current license holders could just install the version 6 beta and not bother with upgrading to the final version. but that means they would be stuck with buggy code, and they would not have access to any future improvements after version 6 final is released. personally, i can't imagine that any current user would settle for a beta version. if they are willing to deal with that, then more power to them!

You don't really believe that do you? v6 is already rock solid for me and there are others that have no problems with it. Saying that users would be stuck using a "buggy" beta version is ridiculous. Not everyone has problems. As a matter of fact after the last beta release (v5 I believe it was) I ran the beta for about 6 months before upgrading to the release version because it was stable and I didn't want to bother with upgrading.

If you don't think there are users who would continue to use the beta instead of paying for an upgrading to the final release you're dreaming.

As for not being able to upgrade to future versions they would because I would imagine Sage will offer some sort of upgrade path. I doubt when v7 comes out only v6 users will be allowed to upgrade. Even if a pricing structure that charged more if you upgrade from an older version was in place you would still have a problem with people dragging upgrading. For example they'd just use the v6 beta and wait and pay the higher price later to go from 5 to 7. If you understand the time value of money you know what I'm talking about and how important it is for companies to recieve payment as quickly as possible to maximize their returns.

i think the system i proposed wouldn't lead to any more of these types of reports over what they are currently getting. as i said, they could have announced the new upgrade policy without mentioning the existence of any beta. only people who actively look for the beta would know about it, the same as it is right now.

As I said before I fail to see why it is so important to inform people of the upgrade policy for a product that isn't released yet. If Joe Blow purchased Sage 1 year ago, what does it matter if he finds out last week or a month from now that v6 will require a $39.99 upgrade fee?

The only argument I see is that not everyone was informed of the $10 discount, but companies run special promotions all the time and don't inform every customer. When your local brick and mortar store runs a sale in the next town over, but not at your location do you write or email them to complain that it is an unfair business practice because not everyone got the same offer? Or if your cable company offers faster service for the same price in another city do you contact them to complain that you should pay less because you have a slower connection? Or what about when someone threatens to leave cable for DTV and are given a discount for several months so that they don't drop the service? Some people seem to have the idea that if everyone doesn't see an offer and some get it cheaper that it is bad business practices, but it goes on everyday in all walks of business.

but as it was, anyone who happened to see the announcement during the offer period, whether they were interested in testing out the beta or not, got the opportunity for the discount.

Yes, and I see no problems with that. Basically some people got the discount and are testing the beta. Others got the discount and are not using the beta so they in essence "prepaid" for v6 to get the discount.

My point is actually offering a discount if you prepay would create a certain expectation and IMO would require a specific release date to be set, which is rarely a good thing.

Informing everyone about the beta and the discount would likely lead to more users who are less familiar with setting up and trouble shooting Sage installing the product and filing incorrect bug reports.

Sending out messages about the upgrade policy without mentioning the beta seems kind of pointless if you're not offering the option to prepay, which IMO wouldn't be a good thing to do.

Yes, Sage could have made the offer only to those willing to beta test. Maybe they should have made it exclusively for beta testers, but I guess they wanted to be a little more generous than that.

i'm not sure if you're referring to me, but i don't think i'm "punishing" sagetv. i have no problems with the new upgrade policy. i love the sagetv program and will continue using it, i think sagetv is a great company, and i would recommend their products to anyone.

the purpose of this thread is to discuss the new upgrade policy, so that's what i'm doing (well, not the upgrade policy per se, but the way it was announced). i'm just stating my disappointment about not being notified about the upgrade policy and not being given the same opportunity to benefit from the discount. i don't think i made any demands, only suggestions as to how sagetv might want to improve the upgrade process next time. sagetv can choose to listen or ignore me.

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically, just the general attitude that some people seem to have that Sage has treated people unfairly.

I can understand being disappointed about not being notified about the discount; however, that happens everyday in all walks of business. You seem to be a loyal customer and I mean no offense, but honestly do you not see a difference between yourself who has been using the product for several years and rarely visit the forums and someone who checks it daily and attempts to help other users with their problems? I'm not saying I personally deserved a discount because I know I'm of little to no help to most everyone, but there are many on the forums that have worked hard to create plugins, help other users with problems, etc.... that do deserve more of a discount than the rest of us IMO. I guess that is why I don't see a problem with placing a discount so that the users who make up the community here are the ones most likely to see it.

I just don't see that everyone must get the same offer for a $10 discount nor do I think the terms of who should and shouldn't get it be written in stone. If that sort of thing bothered me I would probably think more like you do, but personally I've never felt anyone owed me anything and I've always had the mindset that not everyone is going to get the same offers and opportunities in life. So little things like this seem insignificant to me.

BTW I never said you didn't have the right to post your opinions just like I have the right to post mine. I'm not saying Sage shouldn't have done the things you've suggested. Just that I can see other reasons why they might have chosen not to and to me it's not that big a deal. Of course to you it may be and that's fine.

[bbobbo]

Originally Posted by blade

I'm not saying I personally deserved a discount because I know I'm of little to no help to most everyone

so, how about you send me the $10 you saved and we'll call it even.

i was getting ready to write a longer response to the rest of your post, but this could go on and on, and i think we've both made our points. i appreciate your taking the time to respond, though.

[blade]

Originally Posted by bbobbo

so, how about you send me the $10 you saved and we'll call it even.

If I could affoard to I would.

i was getting ready to write a longer response to the rest of your post, but this could go on and on, and i think we've both made our points. i appreciate your taking the time to respond, though.

I've been bored lately, it gives me something to do and I'm glad you spoke your mind. Nothing wrong with people sharing their views.

[silkshadow]

In this thread: http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ad.php?t=21409. Blade says:

Sage has never charged for upgrades until v6 came out. Before then all upgrades had always been free. So it's not like Sage has been "nickle and diming" people. Point releases will continue to be free and they will charge for version releases. According to Sage they'll be charging due to the additional features added. The upgrade to v6 was the first time anyone has paid for an upgrade so there isn't a history to compare it to. There was a limited time upgrade fee of $29.99, but the normal upgrade fee is $39.99. You only need to upgrade the server software all the clients and placeshifter license can be upgraded for free. So basically $39.99 will cover your entire Sage setup regardless of how many clients you have.

I bolded the part I am needing clarification on. Is that true? Sorry for creating a new thread but I have to know if this is true. No where else have I read this so I was under the impression that it was a one time thing.