Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[jominor]

Originally Posted by DynamoBen

You have stop making these broad assertions and generalizations about others. We all get it, you love sage and think we are ridiculous for questioning them about their policies or asking about the future. In addition, if we don't agree with your arguments or your way of thinking we are "not reasonable." (I can't imagine what a political debate would be like)

The point about food and shelter was intended to let you know that Sage is not the only one with bills to pay. In the end, we are consumers and want to be well-informed about purchasing decisions. You may not feel this is important, but I for one understood his point. He is being a responsible, well-informed, consumer...enough said.

Finally, I don't care who wrote the software these are questions I/we would still ask. If these forums didn't exist I would write an email or find another method to contact the company. I think the odd thing in all of this is how personal you have become about the topic. You have made your point VERY clear, many of the questions and concerns still remain. Please don't take our comments or stance personally.

P.S. Saber Rattling is a threat or implied threat to use military force, I don't think anyone is planning on waging war over this.

DynamoBen, I can make such assertions because I've seen this time and time again. I've lived it. This particular debate is old. And people are not unique. People are predictable. Sage, I'll wager, knew the debate this would start which is why this stickly thread was started.

Also, I'll bet anything I have on my assertions on how people would react to the "work for free" or "raise requests" statements that I'll made.

If you think that I am taking any of this personally, then I would say that you don't understand my posts. Upgrade or not...I don't care.

I will, however, state my opinions and I believe that I can reasonable say that the requests that I am reading are 'not reasonable'. If someone chooses to take that personally, What would be personal would be DynamoBen making statements about what is or is not important to me.

Sage is doing nothing that other software companies don't do. The issues is that they are more accessible. I'm confident that the "informed consumer" of which you speak doesn't perform the same analysis on every thing he purchases simply because most vendors aren't as available as sage.


PS: Saber rattling doesn't just mean threat or military force. It can also mean any blustering. Perhaps more than one dictionary should be consulted.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

But what Sage hasn't done is identify 1) What kind of support will be provided for their legacy software and 2) how long that support will last? And these are both questions that other vendors are able to answer for me today (without me having to ask).

No, I don't believe they do. You're asking a company how long support for its *current* software will last, not legacy software. v6 is not yet production. But given that Sage was still providing v2 support when v5 was available, you have no reason to believe they will remove support. In fact I have been using completely unsupported hardware for a long time, and Sage have always been helpful with it. I suspect Sage would try to help a customer using v5 at any time, but don't expect new releases for it. As Narflex said...

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

No, I don't believe they do. You're asking a company how long support for its *current* software will last, not legacy software. v6 is not yet production. But given that Sage was still providing v2 support when v5 was available, you have no reason to believe they will remove support. In fact I have been using completely unsupported hardware for a long time, and Sage have always been helpful with it. I suspect Sage would try to help a customer using v5 at any time, but don't expect new releases for it. As Narflex said...

If this is true, then that is great news - but I guess I'd rather have the official word (or even the unofficial official word) on this rather than just our assumptions based on the fact that it has always been done a certain way in the past or that Sage is great company.

Upgrades had always been free in the past, too. So now that the climate is changing, I guess I'd like a better definition with respect to some of the things I have taken for granted.

Sorry for my use of legacy (which I guess would imply unsupported software). I'm simply using it to mean "not the latest version" (since it's easier to type legacy than "not the latest version"). I understand that v6 isn't production yet, but at some point in the near future, my v5 software, will indeed become the old version. Hope this clarifies my verbiage.

[rickgillyon]

Legacy doesn't mean unsupported, just means not the latest - but v5 is the latest released SageTV.

I guess my main point is that I've dealt with Sage guys for the last year, and I trust them to do right by us. I would be happy that if I wanted to stick with v5, they would help me out if I hit problems. If I tried to use a new tuner that wasn't supported in v5, no hope, but they'd try to help if they could. A bit of common sense is required: don't expect a two-year software roadmap, expect the support you've always had...

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by jominor

Also, I'll bet anything I have on my assertions on how people would react to the "work for free" or "raise requests" statements that I'll made.

I will, however, state my opinions and I believe that I can reasonable say that the requests that I am reading are 'not reasonable'. If someone chooses to take that personally, What would be personal would be DynamoBen making statements about what is or is not important to me.

I think the point is that no one here is asking Sage to work for free or questioning Sage's right to charge for an upgrade. I don't even think that most people are demanding that Sage do something (other than answer some questions). Rather, we're all trying to define the parameters as best we can. And we're asking questions about what will be available for people who do not upgrade.

I've seen a few very valid questions raised in this thread:

1. About how often will we be asked to upgrade?
2. Would Sage consider making upgrades time-based rather than release-based so that the answer to question 1 is clearer?
3. How long will Sage continue to support their "not-lastest" version software?
4. What level of support will Sage provide for their "not-latest" version software? (already answered as tech-support only)
5. If I was told that a 5.0 bug fix would be available "in the next release", will I get that bug fix as a part of my 5.0 software license or do I need to upgrade? (already answered as probably not)

As many have pointed out, Sage is under no obligation to answer any of these questions. But it never hurts to ask. And would it be nice if they could at least provide some insight into some of these.

Originally Posted by jominor

I'll buy v6, not so much for the features even, but because I KNOW that money spent here will finance future development.

This is a great point and one that I have been stuggling with the most. Should I "donate" $30 because it will go to a good cause and support a small business? At this point the answer for me is no, because I've already spent around $100 or so in licenses over the last 20 months for my SageTV Server, MVP Support and Placeshifter. That amounts to around $5/month to use my PVR/Media Center software, which sounds about right to me. So unless the v6 features or the v6 support becomes important to me, I will probably not upgrade right now.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by ugh

A question I haven't seen asked (sorry if I missed in the thread).

Can I still buy a 5.0 Client or place shifter license if I choose not to upgrade?
And will I still be able to DL them?

This is a good question.

My impression is that you can buy a license today (or at whatever point v6 becomes public) and it will work on any Client/Placeshifter version. I'm making this assumption because there is no upgrade fee required to continue using the Client/Placeshifter in v6.0. Someone please correct me if this is bad info.

As far as the DL question goes, someone more in the know than me will have to answer that. But, I typically save the Install files after downloading (so I can reinstall later, if necessary). So my suggestion would be to download the installers today and that way you'll have them once they are no longer easily accessible from the public website.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Legacy doesn't mean unsupported, just means not the latest - but v5 is the latest released SageTV.

I guess my main point is that I've dealt with Sage guys for the last year, and I trust them to do right by us. I would be happy that if I wanted to stick with v5, they would help me out if I hit problems. If I tried to use a new tuner that wasn't supported in v5, no hope, but they'd try to help if they could. A bit of common sense is required: don't expect a two-year software roadmap, expect the support you've always had...

Okay, good, so my use of legacy is correct. So when I talk about legacy, I am talking about the day when v5.0 is no longer the latest released SageTV (because if I choose not to upgrade, then at some point in the near future that is going to be true). And my questions are about what will happen once v5.0 is no longer the latest released SageTV.

I guess you're right. I probably should look at the glass as half full (be less cynical) and trust that Sage will do right be me.

It's just weird because on one hand people are saying: "Hey, cut Sage a break, they're running a business, of course they have to charge for upgrades. Of course they can't fix every bug that every user runs into - fixing bugs costs money."

But on the other hand, these same people are saying: "Hey, Sage has always been fair, of course they'll provide the same level of support they always have - of course they'll make upgrades easy and affordable - of course they won't take away the EPG - *even if you're no longer a paying customer*"

And I guess that's my point: Sage *IS* running a business and if I pass on v6.0, then I am in some respects, no longer a paying customer. Tech support costs money, the EPG service costs money, etc. So if I am not a paying customer, how can I expect Sage to continue to provide these things that cost them money? So, I'd like to understand, before I put down my $30 for an upgrade, what that $30 will buy outside of the just the software features. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to want to know this. And, again, I don't need the roadmap, I don't need specific dates or timelines. Just a simple answer like, "Hey we can't tell you exactly when support for v5.0 will end, but what we can tell you is that there are no plans to stop providing v5.0 support in the near future and we'll let you know X days in advance once we decide that v5.0 is no longer supported. And until that day comes the support you can expect is the email tech support we have always provided, but will likely not fix any bugs in the software."

I guess what I am saying is.... when upgrades and support were free, I didn't give much thought to the fact that I bought software that offers no guarantees. But now that I will need to pay $X every N months to stay current on the software and receive bugfixes from Sage, I'd like a few more guarantees.

Call me crazy (oh wait, some of you already have - although not you personally rickgillyon, your answers have been very thoughtful, even if we are agreeing to disagree )

[jominor]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I think the point is that no one here is asking Sage to work for free or questioning Sage's right to charge for an upgrade. I don't even think that most people are demanding that Sage do something (other than answer some questions). Rather, we're all trying to define the parameters as best we can. And we're asking questions about what will be available for people who do not upgrade.


As many have pointed out, Sage is under no obligation to answer any of these questions. But it never hurts to ask. And would it be nice if they could at least provide some insight into some of these.



This is a great point and one that I have been stuggling with the most. Should I "donate" $30 because it will go to a good cause and support a small business? At this point the answer for me is no, because I've already spent around $100 or so in licenses over the last 20 months for my SageTV Server, MVP Support and Placeshifter. That amounts to around $5/month to use my PVR/Media Center software, which sounds about right to me. So unless the v6 features or the v6 support becomes important to me, I will probably not upgrade right now.

Well, you did edit about a couple of points. I'm very interested in the integrated compression. For me, that is more compelling than even the enhanced music. Plus, after more than 3 years of free upgrades, I don't think I'm donating anything, especially considering I'm paying for new features.

But I understand your point. Take a look at the meedio guys. Purchased by Yahoo and the users were basically "cast out". I understand the concerns that maybe Sage will drop v5, and maybe they may one day charge for EPG data, but as someone said, the Sage guys have done right by us.

Let's give them the benefit.

[itbmils]

OK - firstly - my apologies in advance for this post, as I'm sure this question will be answered somewhere.

(this is my first post to this forum and I not NOT read this entire thread)

I'm currently using the V6 BETA and I think it's GREAT. I'd like to buy it along with some clients.

I currently use mythtv - and V6 seems to give me everything I need - but is easier to install and manage – so the good news is that I'm converted – and I'm happy to pony up the ca$h to prove it

My question is - how far away is version 6 from being released.

I'd like to jump directly to V6 or is it cost effective for me to buy version 5 now and then upgrade. I can't seem to see anywhere how I can get a Version 6 license key – and my 15 day trail is about to expire

talk to me guys (and gals)

[rickgillyon]

If v6 is working for you, I would stick with v6! Timescales will depend on the feedback Sage get on this beta, but I would expect another beta version at least before a release, so it will be a little way off.

A v5 licence will allow you to install v6, but to check if a new purchase will be a v6 licence anyway, better to check with Sage directly at
orders @ sagetv dot com

[itbmils]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

If v6 is working for you, I would stick with v6! Timescales will depend on the feedback Sage get on this beta, but I would expect another beta version at least before a release, so it will be a little way off.

A v5 licence will allow you to install v6, but to check if a new purchase will be a v6 licence anyway, better to check with Sage directly at
orders @ sagetv dot com

thanks for that - request sent

any suggestions on if/how I can extend the 15 days ?

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by itbmils

any suggestions on if/how I can extend the 15 days ?

You could reformat your hard drive.

[itbmils]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

You could reformat your hard drive.

oh - very witty

that would then require another 6 hours of upgrades, reboots and patches ....

can we assume that all future references to format/fdisk/dd/ del *.* or similar are taken as read

[rickgillyon]

I think those are your only options without buying a licence, unless Sage give you any other clues. Sorry!

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by itbmils

My question is - how far away is version 6 from being released.

If we could give a precise date for that, we could have given a precise date for the start of the public beta.

I'd like to jump directly to V6 or is it cost effective for me to buy version 5 now and then upgrade. I can't seem to see anywhere how I can get a Version 6 license key – and my 15 day trail is about to expire

There is no upgrade fee to go from v5 -> v6, as stated in the first post of this thread.

As far as restarting the trial, rickgillyon wasn't just being 'witty'; he was telling you the way it is. Unless a future release resets the trial period (which could happen for the official release), it would take a reinstallation of Windows to reset the trial... otherwise, there would be no point in having a trial time limit if it were easily bypassed.

- Andy

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by jominor

Well, you did edit about a couple of points. I'm very interested in the integrated compression. For me, that is more compelling than even the enhanced music. Plus, after more than 3 years of free upgrades, I don't think I'm donating anything, especially considering I'm paying for new features.

But I understand your point. Take a look at the meedio guys. Purchased by Yahoo and the users were basically "cast out". I understand the concerns that maybe Sage will drop v5, and maybe they may one day charge for EPG data, but as someone said, the Sage guys have done right by us.

Let's give them the benefit.

Sorry I did edit your response down a little bit, but I thought I had captured the spirit of your post (I didn't mean to alter your words). It sounds like you and I have similar thoughts on the new features. The automatic compression sounds interesting to me, too. And I am not all that intereted in the new music navigation (as I don't use SageTV as a music jukebox). I've also been a customer since 2.2 and am now using version 5. (Personally, I'd rather see the entire UI revamped, but that is neither here nor there).

So, do I upgrade, even if I'm not that keen to start using the automatic compression right away? For me, the answer is no. And for you the answer is yes. And I think we're both right.

Anyway, I've pretty much said my peace at this point and I think most everyone participating in this thread understands the questions I have asked (whether they agree with them or not is a different story). So now I'll just wait and see if anything comes of them. Thanks everyone for the fun and engaging debate!

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by Opus4

There is no upgrade fee to go from v5 -> v6, as stated in the first post of this thread.

Although if you're going to buy a license today... IMO, you'd be better off with a full v6 license, which in theory will get you a free upgrade to v7. Even though there is no date for a v6 release, in my experience it's typically taken about a month (or a little more) for a beta to become the official release.

But, of course, v6 is only a beta today, so if you're looking for a rock solid PVR/Media Center, then v5 is awesome and you should definitely go ahead and buy a v5 license.

[lovingHDTV]

Originally Posted by Opus4

If we could give a precise date for that, we could have given a precise date for the start of the public beta.

There is no upgrade fee to go from v5 -> v6, as stated in the first post of this thread.

As far as restarting the trial, rickgillyon wasn't just being 'witty'; he was telling you the way it is. Unless a future release resets the trial period (which could happen for the official release), it would take a reinstallation of Windows to reset the trial... otherwise, there would be no point in having a trial time limit if it were easily bypassed.

- Andy

I think his question was more along the lines of: If I buy a license now will it be a V5 or V6 license? Considering the ones who bought during V4 beta, got a V4 license, then had to pay for a V6 upgrade I think he just does not want that to happen to him. A valid point, why buy the "old" version when you could wait a short period of time and get the "new" verion and potentially an additional upgrade.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by lovingHDTV

I think his question was more along the lines of: If I buy a license now will it be a V5 or V6 license?

Yeah, I know that _potential_ point of the question: is a v5 license considered to be the same as a v6 license after release. But I'm only willing to post what I'm 100% sure about right now for such a question.

But, he specifically stated that he was trying to decide whether to "buy version 5 now and then upgrade", so the important point to remember for that decision is that there is no upgrade fee involved for v5 -> v6. If you buy v5, you also get v6. So, that's the question I answered.

- Andy

[tmiranda]

Andy,

Here is one that I hope you can answer. I may have to do a fresh install of Sage. When I enter the key do I enter the V4 key and then the v6 upgrade key, or do I enter the v6 upgrade key straight away?

Tom