Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[blade]

Originally Posted by Olive

That's not right. I have never ever complained about having to pay for anything. I'm chosing not to buy the upgrade, and I fear support will not resolve some remaining issues in the older version.

What? Your entire point was that you had "bugs" with v5 that had not been resolved and you were afraid the only way to get them fixed was to purchase v6 because you were afraid they wouldn't not offer fixes for v5.0 or are you trying to tell me that is not what you've been posting about?

[blade]

Originally Posted by Olive

And sorry for sounding repetitive but I believe that's helped us make some progress by establishing what I imagine everybody can now agree on:

1. Users have the right to chose not to upgrade.
2. Those who do also have the right to expect continued support for the older version.
3. It is not uncommon to provide support in the form of free bug-fix updates.
4. Support can also provided by other means, i.e. privately.
5. There are remaining issues in v5.
6. Sage has not clearly stated how they'll support those facing these issues.

I don't see how it is progress.

1 - Everyone has said that from the beginning.
2 - Everyone has said that as well and narflex posted days ago that v5 would still be supported.
3 - I don't recall anyone saying bug fixes weren't typically provided free. Just that people can't expect to continue to get additional features for free.
4 - Obviously, that is what tech support is for.
5 - I don't think anyone ever said there wasn't.

No offense, but if you were trying argue those things I don't think anyone got it because most everyone agreed with that to begin with.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by blade

I don't see how it is progress.

1 - Everyone has said that from the beginning.
2 - Everyone has said that as well and narflex posted days ago that v5 would still be supported.
3 - I don't recall anyone saying bug fixes weren't typically provided free. Just that people can't expect to continue to get additional features for free.
4 - Obviously, that is what tech support is for.
5 - I don't think anyone ever said there wasn't.

No offense, but if you were trying argue those things I don't think anyone got it because most everyone agreed with that to begin with.

I'm not sure that this is exactly the set of issues that Olive is referring to. I'll try to clarify and Olive can correct me if I'm incorrectly putting words into his mouth...

1. True, but I think what Olive is saying that, yeah, he gets it, He has the right not to buy the upgrade and every third post doesn't need to remind him of that. He can "vote with his feet and his wallet", but he hasn't reached that point yet.
2. Support in the sense of Narflex's post means "tech support" or 'phone support", not that Sage will provide a publicly available patch if your support issue is the result of a bug - which I think is what Olive is referring to.
3. See #2. It seems fairly clear at this point that the support Sage is providing for v5.0 is tech support in the form of installation, configuration and usabilty help, not bug fixes.
4. Not tech support, but rather, if Sage isn't willing to make a public patch to v5.0, are there circumstances under which they'd issue a bug fix to an individual, privately?

Hope this helps to clarify (and possibly rachet down the tension level in here a notch or two).

[blade]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I'm not sure that this is exactly the set of issues that Olive is referring to. I'll try to clarify and Olive can correct me if I'm incorrectly putting words into his mouth...

1. True, but I think what Olive is saying that, yeah, he gets it, He has the right not to buy the upgrade and every third post doesn't need to remind him of that. He can "vote with his feet and his wallet", but he hasn't reached that point yet.
2. Support in the sense of Narflex's post means "tech support" or 'phone support", not that Sage will provide a publicly available patch if your support issue is the result of a bug - which I think is what Olive is referring to.
3. See #2. It seems fairly clear at this point that the support Sage is providing for v5.0 is tech support in the form of installation, configuration and usabilty help, not bug fixes.
4. Not tech support, but rather, if Sage isn't willing to make a public patch to v5.0, are there circumstances under which they'd issue a bug fix to an individual, privately?

Hope this helps to clarify (and possibly rachet down the tension level in here a notch or two).

Personally I feel the entire thing has been blown out of proportion. No offense, but some people seem to have unreal expectations as to what Sage "owes them" whether it be in the form or updates, upgrades, roadmaps, etc...

You guys talk as if Sage should provide bug fixes for x amount of time regardless of how many people are affected. If Sage has 5000 customers running a particular configuration and 10 are having a problem should they devote resources to providing another release? What if it is only 5 people? Where do they set the cutoff? The majority of people run v5 without issue other than the minor annoyances all software has.

Sage has a lot more data than we do on the actual number of people using the software and how many are having problems with various configurations. The company has done right by its users in the past and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they will continue to do so. Some people would rather be on the defensive and assume the company is trying to screw them over, which is fine. I just disagree with their assumptions.

[Olive]

Please read my posts again.

Originally Posted by blade

What? Your entire point was that you had "bugs" with v5 that had not been resolved

True.

Originally Posted by blade

and you were afraid the only way to get them fixed was to purchase v6

False. I never mentioned purchasing v6, having to purchase v6, having to pay for anything. I never questioned the upgrade policy, the upgrade price, the version numbering policy or anyting like that. I'm chosing not to upgrade. Period. Read again please.

Originally Posted by blade

because you were afraid they wouldn't not offer fixes for v5.0

THAT is my point. I fear there will be no more fixes for v5. And you'll notice I only joined the conversation after support was first mentioned.

Originally Posted by blade

or are you trying to tell me that is not what you've been posting about?

I'm telling you you are reading beyond what I said in my posts and are making up the "having to pay" part. Please read my posts again and make the effort to understand my point.

Olive

[Olive]

Thanks for clarifying my post spacecadet.

My first 2 posts in this thread were:

Originally Posted by Olive

Ha! I was waiting for someone to say that before I chimed in. I'm not interested in the new features of version 6.0, and since we're talking about support, will there be a version 5.1 or 5.0.5 or whatever that includes the fixes that I was told would be included in "the next release"? More specifically:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19449
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170657

Olive

Originally Posted by Olive

My point was, less than a year after I bought a license, I would have expected support to include providing a release that fixes my problems. Call it v5 or V6, that's irrelevant to me.

Olive

I thought that was reasonable and to the point: I've chosen not to purchase the upgrade and was wondering how I would get fixes.

But I then kept reading (paraphrased):

1. "if you don't like it, don't buy it". You don't have to repeat that, we all knew that all along.

2. "narflex has said support will be provided". But I'm specically referring to bug fixes.

3. "there are other companies that charge for upgrades". But I'm referring to bug fixes.

4. "don't expect a release for your own problems only". You don't have to repeat that. I did mention fixes sent privately early on.

5. "all your problems have been fixed all along". Not all of them have.

6. "Sage is business, stop complaining about having to pay". Never did that.


Every single point has been argued on by both sides so no, not everyone agreed or understood it was agreed from the beginning. And these points are important because they are the sequence of thoughts that lead some of us to the original question: are we going to get bufixes and how?

Olive

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by blade

You guys talk as if Sage should provide bug fixes for x amount of time regardless of how many people are affected. If Sage has 5000 customers running a particular configuration and 10 are having a problem should they devote resources to providing another release? What if it is only 5 people? Where do they set the cutoff? The majority of people run v5 without issue other than the minor annoyances all software has.

I cannot speak for others on this, but I have absolutely no expectations of Sage other than to tell me what happens if I choose not to upgrade. As I said up front, the answer to every question can be "No", and that's fine with me. I'd just like some more clarification on a couple of issues.

One of my concerns is that SageTV is *not* standalone software. It has a service component to it in the form of the EPG that Sage generously offers at no additional cost to its users. If I lose access to the EPG, then the software is not useful. So, even though v5.0 runs great for me today, at some point in the future, I have to expect that I will lose access to that EPG and will need to upgrade. So, I would like to understand what I can expect with regards to this. At this point, it sounds like SageTV has no plans to charge their "legacy" users for continued access to this feature. Which is great!

Another concern is their support policy for "legacy" users. It seems clear to me that their support for "legacy" users will not include bug fixes. And that is fine, Sage is allowed to do whatever they want - but it is good to know up front as this will play into my decision to upgrade now or later. Also, how long can I expect to be able contact tech support with questions? You are right, I have no significant problems with v5.0 today. But, if I add a new tuner or new video card or new decoder to my system tomorrow and it causes problems with Sage, will I be able to get help directly from Sage? or will I need to rely on these forums? So, the question is, How long will I be able to continue contacting tech support once v6.0 is in production? Again, this answer can be in form: "tech support for 5.0 will cease once 6.0 is in production" - and I'm fine with that, too. I'd just like to understand what level of support I will continue to receive for my legacy version of the product.

And the final question is in regards to "skipping" a version. If I choose not to upgrade to v6.0, will I still be able, as a "legacy" user to upgrade directly to v7.0 once v7.0 is available? And will that upgrade come at a reasonable cost (< full price)? I'm not interested in a Roadmap, I don't care what features are in v7.0 and I don't care when v7.0 will be released. I just want to know how the new upgrade policy effects me if I am still on v5.0 when v7.0 is released.

So, again, I don't care what the answers are, I just want to understand what a legacy user of the software can expect going forward. If the answers are that legacy users will get very little, then I will probably just go ahead and upgrade today and save $10. If the answers are that legacy users will at least get a few things for a couple/few months into the future, then I will probably just wait to upgrade until I am ready to do so. Maybe at that time it will still be v6.0 that I am upgrading to, or it may be v7.0, etc. But it will be nice to have the peace of mind that a legacy user isn't going to be left completely behind once the new version is released.

This has nothing to do with not liking Sage's policy. I don't feel like I've criticized them for charging for upgrades. And I haven't once considered changing my PVR software. I love Sage and I love the product. But I don't want to pay for a v6.0 upgrade if I'm not going to use it. Call that cheap if you will, but that's how I feel.

[rickgillyon]

I don't know how much clearer all this could be!
Narflex has said that they have no plans to charge or change EPG, I see no reason to suddenly worry that they will stop support or EPG. And to say that it would be useless without the Sage EPG is not true, as all around the world people manage without it. It just means a little more work...

Sage have been pretty good with support of old versions over the years, and it seems to me that it's unlikely that they'd ask a full price for upgrade v5-v7. I think you're just worrying too much about this, no way are Sage going to tell you about v7 upgrade pricing when v6 isn't released yet, but I believe we can trust them to be reasonable. Have a little faith.

Perhaps I should contact Microsoft, tell them I'm not sure whether to upgrade to Vista, but could they give me an upgrade price from XP to the next OS after Vista, and can they now tell me how long updates and service packs will be available for XP. Somehow, I'm not sure I'd get a response...

[jominor]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

No kidding. And I am a consumer. I have to pay the mortgage, pay the utilities, pay tuitions, buy groceries, save for retirement, etc. So you will forgive me if I'd like to understand how Sage's licensing model will work going forward before I plunk down $30. There is a mentality in this thread that people who love Sage should just pay the $30 because $30 is not a lot of money. And you're right, in the big picture it is not a lot of money. But if it's going to be $30 every 6 months or every 12 months or every 24 months, then I'd like to understand that now rather than later. Or if I can choose to not upgrade now and incur no penalties later when I choose to upgrade to some future v7.0, then, again, I'd like to understand that now, too.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask what my $30 is going to buy, beyond just the software features that are available in the new version (support, ease of upgrading, EPG service, etc).

No one is forcing you to upgrade. $30 buys you an upgrade from any version prior to v5. How much more simple can it get. If Sage said, we are going to disable each previous version every six months and force you to upgrade, you would have something to complain about.

You are asking Sage questions that just about no vendor will answer. And pretty much all will release a new version that will allow the vast majority of their users to upgrade. FOR A PRICE.

Most of the people saying pay(at least me) are not saying pay just because sage is great or $30 is cheap, but both of those AND the saber rattling of the people who are complaining are simply not reasonable.

Sage is not comparable to the food, shelter, and tuition you mentioned in terms of your life. But in terms of the Sage guys, this is how they make their living.


I guarantee that you don't carry on the same way for each and every thing your purchase. I deal with customers like this. "Hey, how come a checkbox can't do this. How come the browser can't do that?"

But no one asks MS because they are not so foolish as to make themselves as accessible as Sage.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I guess that these are exactly the set of questions I have and I don't feel that they are all answered well (hence my questions in this thread).

How stable?

For me v5.0 is *very* stable. I never have to reboot to correct an issue with the software and Sage has never missed a recording (knock on wood). This is one reason I'm not going to jump right into upgrading at this point in time. I usually wait to upgrade in the tv "off-season", when problems with my upgraded environment aren't going to cause me to miss recordings.

How well supported?

To me, this is unclear. What is clear is that if you are on the latest version, then you will get great support (as I have always received great support from Sage in the past). But if I am a user who is staying on version 5.0, what kind of support can I expect once v6.0 is in production? Or, more to the point, if I am a new user who buys a full v6.0 license, how long can I expect my purchase to be supported and bug fixed (until v7.0 is released? until v8.0 is released? forever? this is not clear to me.)

What features? How expandable?

The features are obviously very well documented and they are great. In addition to the rock solid recording I already mentioned, I use both the Media MVP and Placeshifter. And while I do have some issues with Placeshifter, for the most part they are both awesome. And of course, one of the great selling points for me is the expandability of Sage and the user-developed plug-ins - which often provide great additional features in and of themselves.

How much?

To me, this is the other unclear question. It's clear that Sage costs $X for a full license for v6.0 and $Y to upgrade to v6.0. But what guarantees do I get for my $X or $Y?

+ How long will the license for which I paid $X be supported? (unclear)
+ Will that support include bug fixes? (once a new version is in production, probably not)
+ Will I be required to pay for an upgrade to each and every new version, or if I skip v6.0, can I upgrade straight from v5.0 to v7.0 for the same $Y? (probably, but unclear)
+ How often will I be asked to pay for an upgrade? (appears to be based on major point releases, for which there is no timetable, so this is unclear. However Sage has rev'ved the major version number 4 times since I bought v2 back in Jan 05, so this could be as often as 2 times per year. I doubt Sage would ask for an upgrade fee that often.... but the point is, I have no idea)
+ Will access to the EPG service continue to be available at no extra charge once my version is no longer supported? (the answer appears to be yes, as long as Sage's costs in this area do not change)

Please don't take these questions as a statement that I don't love SageTV or that I don't love the software, because I do. I am not even considering another vendor. I will probably even buy the upgrade.

But at this point in time, I am really happy with v5.0, and don't feel that an upgrade to v6.0 is necessary (based on the new features and based on the fact that my system is working great as-is today). So I have questions about what I can reasonably expect from Sage regarding my v5.0 software. My biggest question is: If I choose not to upgrade to v6.0, how does that effect my ability to upgrade to v7.0? That is, can I expect it to be a supported upgrade? And can I expect the license cost to be similar (< full price)?

Hope this helps folks understand where I (and probably others) are coming from.

Stricly speaking, I haven't seen any requesting from Sage *asking* anyone to upgrade. They have an upgrade available AND if the features are attractive, you *may* upgrade.

There is nothing that Sage has posted that even remotely implies a forced upgrade, yet people are carrying on like Sage sent in jackboots to yank their older copies.

Guess what, Intuit actually stops supporting their software after a certain amount of time. I was FORCED to upgrade to Quicken 2006 because Quicken 2003 no longer supports online banking.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jominor

No one is forcing you to upgrade. $30 buys you an upgrade from any version prior to v5.

But you're doing that only to use version 6, and a beta version at that!

Since the only persons needing to buy this upgrade are doing it to use Version 6, it should be a version 6 license. (Edit: It does seem to be a Version 6 upgrade, so that may take care of my concern about history repeating itself, but not regarding prior history).

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jominor

Stricly speaking, I haven't seen any requesting from Sage *asking* anyone to upgrade. They have an upgrade available AND if the features are attractive, you *may* upgrade.

There is nothing that Sage has posted that even remotely implies a forced upgrade, yet people are carrying on like Sage sent in jackboots to yank their older copies.

Strictly speaking you're right, but strictly speaking, if 5.0 were working perfectly on my system I wouldn't upgrade.

Just an example, I submitted a bug report on Version 5 (which I believe affects all the sub-versions) which is that long HD recordings consume more CPU cycles as the file size increases. Over about 2 hours and I get stuttering if trying to watch the same program while it records (but I can watch another recorded program fine, and I can stop the recording and restart it, and then watch either portion of the recording fine).

I requested a maximum file size option, as exists in systems not recording to NTFS drives, because splitting the file eliminates the problem. The response was they'd try to work it into a future version. Now that future version will be a paid version, because they've announced 5.04 is the last update of version 5.

But again, I'm not opposed to the upgrade fee, and as soon as I'm sure this version works adequately I'll pay it. But I do think it should be based on date of purchase rather than version purchased.

[DynamoBen]

Originally Posted by jominor

Most of the people saying pay(at least me) are not saying pay just because sage is great or $30 is cheap, but both of those AND the saber rattling of the people who are complaining are simply not reasonable.

Sage is not comparable to the food, shelter, and tuition you mentioned in terms of your life. But in terms of the Sage guys, this is how they make their living.

I guarantee that you don't carry on the same way for each and every thing your purchase.

You have stop making these broad assertions and generalizations about others. We all get it, you love sage and think we are ridiculous for questioning them about their policies or asking about the future. In addition, if we don't agree with your arguments or your way of thinking we are "not reasonable." (I can't imagine what a political debate would be like)

The point about food and shelter was intended to let you know that Sage is not the only one with bills to pay. In the end, we are consumers and want to be well-informed about purchasing decisions. You may not feel this is important, but I for one understood his point. He is being a responsible, well-informed, consumer...enough said.

Finally, I don't care who wrote the software these are questions I/we would still ask. If these forums didn't exist I would write an email or find another method to contact the company. I think the odd thing in all of this is how personal you have become about the topic. You have made your point VERY clear, many of the questions and concerns still remain. Please don't take our comments or stance personally.

P.S. Saber Rattling is a threat or implied threat to use military force, I don't think anyone is planning on waging war over this.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Narflex has said that they have no plans to charge or change EPG, I see no reason to suddenly worry that they will stop support or EPG. And to say that it would be useless without the Sage EPG is not true, as all around the world people manage without it. It just means a little more work...

I'm only worried about it in the sense that we'll only have EPG support until Sage says we don't. But you are right, I have full confidence that Sage will do the right thing in this area. And as you mention, Narflex has answered the question to the best of his ability (but only because I asked it) and it appears that there is nothing to worry about today.

I guess I also realize that I can configure Sage to import my own EPG data, but I haven't looked into this and one of the things I like about Sage is that they build this complexity into their software for me, so that I don't have to worry about it.

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Sage have been pretty good with support of old versions over the years, and it seems to me that it's unlikely that they'd ask a full price for upgrade v5-v7. I think you're just worrying too much about this, no way are Sage going to tell you about v7 upgrade pricing when v6 isn't released yet, but I believe we can trust them to be reasonable. Have a little faith.

I agree that it is unlikely they'd ask for a full price upgrade from v5 to v7 and I do have a little faith. But all the upgrade policy defines today is what it takes to get to v6 and we can only make assumptions for versions beyond that. I think we all have the same assumption in this area, but I guess I was looking for something more concrete (and as I have said before, Sage has the right to say, No or It is unknown at this time or whatever). Even if that something concrete is just a statement: "The upgrade policy for v7 is unclear, but Sage will let you know what the upgrade policy is for v7 within a reasonable amount of time before v7 is released so that you don't get left behind"

Originally Posted by jominor

Guess what, Intuit actually stops supporting their software after a certain amount of time. I was FORCED to upgrade to Quicken 2006 because Quicken 2003 no longer supports online banking.

Thanks. I've already used this example. I don't use Quicken, I use MS Money, but I imagine it's the same deal. When I buy MS Money, it says right in my EULA that the online features are only available for 24 months after I activate the software. So should I be surprised when MS stops providing the online features for my MS Money 2003 edition? No, I am not.

Or if I buy MacAfee Anti-Virus, right on the package I can see that my version of MacAfee Anti-Virus entitles me to online updates for 12 months. And am I surprised when my online updates stop? No, I am not.

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Perhaps I should contact Microsoft, tell them I'm not sure whether to upgrade to Vista, but could they give me an upgrade price from XP to the next OS after Vista, and can they now tell me how long updates and service packs will be available for XP. Somehow, I'm not sure I'd get a response

Point taken. But I guess these things are more well defined with MS via their Press Releases/EULA/FAQs/past experiences/etc, so I don't need to go and ask them directly. I can go right to http://www.microsoft.com/windows/sup...ofsupport.mspx and find out exactly how long my legacy version of the Windows OS will continue to be supported via tech support and Windows Updates. And if my legacy version is still supported today, I have confidence that MS will give me about 6 months to do something once they do decide to drop support for my version.

Or I can go and see exactly what the upgrade matrix looks like for Vista. But for the most part, if I am using an MS product, and that product is still supported, I know that I will be able to perform an "in-place" upgrade to the latest and greatest version.

Originally Posted by jominor

There is nothing that Sage has posted that even remotely implies a forced upgrade, yet people are carrying on like Sage sent in jackboots to yank their older copies.

And there is nothing Sage has posted to imply that they *aren't* going to do this. I just want to understand what kind of support I can get for my legacy version of SageTV. Is that wrong? People seem to keep suggesting that these questions aren't worth answering or that by asking questions I am criticizing Sage or their right to run a business, but I disagree. As I have been reminded many times so far, SageTV *is* running a business. They don't have to support legacy versions forever. I don't expect them to support legacy versions forever. I just want to understand what this paid upgrade to the latest version implies for someone running a legacy version of the software.

So, to answer a couple of rickgillyon's points.... Sage is good in the sense that they've outlined their policy for a v6.0 upgrade prior to the release of v6.0. So, I guess in that respect, I should have confidence that they will do the same thing once a v7.0 is in its Beta stages. But what Sage hasn't done is identify 1) What kind of support will be provided for their legacy software and 2) how long that support will last? And these are both questions that other vendors are able to answer for me today (without me having to ask).

[ugh]

A question I haven't seen asked (sorry if I missed in the thread).

Can I still buy a 5.0 Client or place shifter license if I choose not to upgrade?
And will I still be able to DL them?

[blade]

Originally Posted by Olive

False. I never mentioned purchasing v6, having to purchase v6, having to pay for anything. I never questioned the upgrade policy, the upgrade price, the version numbering policy or anyting like that. I'm chosing not to upgrade. Period. Read again please.

THAT is my point. I fear there will be no more fixes for v5. And you'll notice I only joined the conversation after support was first mentioned.

I'm telling you you are reading beyond what I said in my posts and are making up the "having to pay" part. Please read my posts again and make the effort to understand my point.

I'm not making up the "having to pay part". Your concern has been that no more fixes will be released for v5. In which case the only way to get bug fixes would be to pay for an upgrade to v6, which you do not want to do. As you've already stated you've chosen not to upgrade. I don't see why you try to make your stance so complicated when it is simple.

[blade]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I'm only worried about it in the sense that we'll only have EPG support until Sage says we don't.

That has always been the case. It just took Sage charging for upgrades for people to become "concerned" about it.

I guess I also realize that I can configure Sage to import my own EPG data, but I haven't looked into this and one of the things I like about Sage is that they build this complexity into their software for me, so that I don't have to worry about it.

Exactly, you're not going to be left with a dead product.

But all the upgrade policy defines today is what it takes to get to v6 and we can only make assumptions for versions beyond that. I think we all have the same assumption in this area, but I guess I was looking for something more concrete (and as I have said before, Sage has the right to say, No or It is unknown at this time or whatever).

I can understand Sage not knowing what the policy will be considering v7 hasn't been developed yet. I would hate to see them leave out desirable features because development costs were too high to be covered under the pre-announced upgrade policy. I could also see the number of users still using previous versions being taken into consideration as well. After all Sage wants to keep their customers and have them upgrade not purchase a competing product. Having to pay full price for the software would probably have people shopping around, which would be less likely if lower priced upgrades were available.

I use MS Money, but I imagine it's the same deal. When I buy MS Money, it says right in my EULA that the online features are only available for 24 months after I activate the software. So should I be surprised when MS stops providing the online features for my MS Money 2003 edition? No, I am not.

What about when newer versions of money no longer support files from the older versions? I started using money back in 95 and a few years later after purchasing the full version I found out that it would not use my old money file. So I'm stuck using 95 or I lose all of my financial info and start over from scratch. I didn't see anywhere on the package when I purchased 95 or the newer version that it didn't support the older files.

Also I've had quite a bit of hardware such as game pads, scanners, modems, etc... where changes were made in newer releases of windows and support was dropped by the manufacturer. Sucks to pay $100-200 for a device then a year or two later a new version of windows is released and you have a nice paperweight.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I'm not sure that this is exactly the set of issues that Olive is referring to. I'll try to clarify and Olive can correct me if I'm incorrectly putting words into his mouth...

1. True, but I think what Olive is saying that, yeah, he gets it, He has the right not to buy the upgrade and every third post doesn't need to remind him of that. He can "vote with his feet and his wallet", but he hasn't reached that point yet.
2. Support in the sense of Narflex's post means "tech support" or 'phone support", not that Sage will provide a publicly available patch if your support issue is the result of a bug - which I think is what Olive is referring to.
3. See #2. It seems fairly clear at this point that the support Sage is providing for v5.0 is tech support in the form of installation, configuration and usabilty help, not bug fixes.
4. Not tech support, but rather, if Sage isn't willing to make a public patch to v5.0, are there circumstances under which they'd issue a bug fix to an individual, privately?

Hope this helps to clarify (and possibly rachet down the tension level in here a notch or two).

A private patch? No one dies that? Not as part of a base purchase.

It clear that Sage needs offer a maintenance contract like IBM. They charge thousands a year for maintanence. Perhaps then Sage's humble efforts will be appreciated.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

But you're doing that only to use version 6, and a beta version at that!

Since the only persons needing to buy this upgrade are doing it to use Version 6, it should be a version 6 license. (Edit: It does seem to be a Version 6 upgrade, so that may take care of my concern about history repeating itself, but not regarding prior history).

No, you can upgrade to the beta and save $10 on the upgrade.
Or you can wait until 6 is final.
Or you can choose not to upgrade.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Strictly speaking you're right, but strictly speaking, if 5.0 were working perfectly on my system I wouldn't upgrade.

Just an example, I submitted a bug report on Version 5 (which I believe affects all the sub-versions) which is that long HD recordings consume more CPU cycles as the file size increases. Over about 2 hours and I get stuttering if trying to watch the same program while it records (but I can watch another recorded program fine, and I can stop the recording and restart it, and then watch either portion of the recording fine).

I requested a maximum file size option, as exists in systems not recording to NTFS drives, because splitting the file eliminates the problem. The response was they'd try to work it into a future version. Now that future version will be a paid version, because they've announced 5.04 is the last update of version 5.

But again, I'm not opposed to the upgrade fee, and as soon as I'm sure this version works adequately I'll pay it. But I do think it should be based on date of purchase rather than version purchased.

Sage v5 works perfectly for me. I ran 2.2.8 until I went to v5. And I'll buy v6, not so much for the features even, but because I KNOW that money spent here will finance future development. A secondary consideration, in this case, is that compression feature.