Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[jominor]

Originally Posted by DynamoBen

Ahhh I see, you determine for the group whether a point of view has merit. I wished I had known that sooner I would not have wasted my time.

No, actually I said something else, but it was edited by Opus.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by Opus4

What is there to clarify about this? There is nothing muddy about the fact that there is absolutely no way in the world to guarantee that SageTV could provide a free EPG service forever, so they are pointing out that there is no guarantee in order to prevent anyone from thinking there is a guarantee. It doesn't mean there is an inevitable change; it doesn't mean there will be no change. It just means that's the way things are today.

I understand what the blurb in the manual means. And I completely understand that Sage would want to document the services they provide (as I said in the earlier post, purchasing software is akin to purchasing a contract with the software provider). If they didn't say this and then took away the EPG service, that would be a problem. So I have no issues with Sage documenting that the EPG may not be free forever.

But you cannot deny that the blurb in the manual is intentionally vague (or "muddy" as I said earlier). I guess the clarification I was interested in is that there are two things that Sage users have taken for granted in the past:

1. Upgrades are free
2. The EPG service is free (doesn't require a subscription)

Now that 1) Upgrades are no longer free, how does that impact 2)? I could easily envision a scenario under which the EPG is no longer provided for "non-paying" customers (that is customers who aren't licensing the current, supported version). Based on your unofficial official word, it sounds like there are no plans to do that in the near future.

Of course no expected Sage to provide free upgrades forever and of course no one expects Sage to guarantee that the EPG service will be free forever.

Not to be a jerk, but if someone buying a v4.1 license back in April 2006 had posed the question, "I really like this Sage software, but what does an upgrade cost"? I suspect they'd have gotten a similar answer: "Sage's policy to date has been to provide free upgrades". A lot of good that answer does them today.

So while Sage's policy on the EPG is clearly documented ("Sage's policy to date has been to provide a free EPG service, but that is subject to change.") I don't think my question is an unfair one to ask, especially given the paradigm change regarding upgrades (even if the answer is that there is no answer).

Again, I'm not trying to be cheap and I do really love the SageTV software. I just am trying to understand as many of the variables as I can before purchasing the upgrade.

[spacecadet]

Again, I'm not trying to be cheap and I do really love the SageTV software. I just am trying to understand as many of the variables as I can before purchasing the upgrade.

I've thought of another question, bringing my total to four. I'll summarize the questions here along with the answers as I understand them (and people can correct me if my understanding is wrong - I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, especially Sage's, but I want to make sure that I am on the same page with the rest of the Sage community):

Q: Will bug fixes be made available to v5.0 users?
A: Possibly. If you have a bug in 5.0 contact support for more information. However, even if a bug is fixed for an individual, it is highly unlikely that another point release of 5.0 (a 5.0 patchset, if you will) will ever be publicly available .

Q: What will the upgrade policy be for future versions of SageTV (beyond 6.0)?
A: The assumption is that a point release (6.1) will be free and a full version will require an upgrade fee. Users with a full license for the current version can upgrade to the next version for free. Users of any older version (even as far back as a 1.x license) will need to pay a nominal fee (< full price) to upgrade.

Q: How will licensing of the EPG service be handled going forward.
A: As per the manual, the EPG service continues to free for the forseeable future (regardless of the SageTV Server license you own), but there are no guarantees that this policy will continue in the future.

And my new question:

Q: How long will SageTV continue to support v5.0 users once v6.0 becomes the current production version?

Sorry if my ongoing questions are irritating, but these answers are important to me and it (hopefully) never hurts to ask (even if there is no answer).

I guess in some respects I am cheap, as I'd like to understand as much as I can about Sage's policies before the upgrade price goes from $30 to $40. So I am cheap in the sense that I'd like to save $10 if it make sense to buy the upgrade now rather X months down the road.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by DynamoBen

Obviously some are not following my point conceptually.

I don't think as a "concept" it's difficult to follow, it's just the reasoning isn't there.

[DynamoBen]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

I don't think as a "concept" it's difficult to follow, it's just the reasoning isn't there.

OK guys, I get it some of you don't agree with my point of view that’s fine. In then end you don't have too. Some of you do agree and now are coming out with other concerns. Just saying my argument has no reasoning or has no "merit", or implying that myself or others are cheap really doesn't illuminate your point very well.

What concerns me is the number of sometimes-blatant personal attacks during this thread. Why can't everyone follow that old adage of "If you can't some something nice (about someone), don't say anything at all?"

It’s fine to debate, or attack, the topic but lets limit the discussion to the topic. In the end, Opus shouldn't need to edit posts, if we all behave and follow these principles things can continue in a civilized manner.

P.S. If you don't like the topic or the debate that is taking place in this thread then you may want to find some other thread to participate in.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I've thought of another question, bringing my total to four.

I'd like to avoid beating a dead horse, but just to phrase these another way.... this is my thinking behind paying for the upgrade:

1. Do I like the features in the new version? If yes, then upgrade.
2. Will Sage TV provide free bug fixes for 5.0 users? If no, then upgrade.
3. Will Sage TV make it easy and affordable for 5.0 users to upgrade to version 7.0? If no, then upgrade.
4. Will Sage TV continue to provide EPG service support for 5.0 users for the foreseeable future? If no, then upgrade.
5. Will Sage TV continue to support version 5.0 for a reasonable amount of time once version 6.0 is released? If no, then upgrade.

It seems like the answers to these are:

2. Possibly
3. Probably
4. Yes until the answer becomes no
5. Unknown

Hopefully that helps people understand where my questions are coming from. These are the questions that I have been asking myself. Anyway, hope that helps.

[Olive]

Originally Posted by blade

Nor does it resolve the problem for anyone else. Your complaint was having to pay for bug fixes which obviously isn't the case if no fix has been provided for v6 yet.

That's not right. I have never ever complained about having to pay for anything. I'm chosing not to buy the upgrade, and I fear support will not resolve some remaining issues in the older version.

Olive

[Olive]

And sorry for sounding repetitive but I believe that's helped us make some progress by establishing what I imagine everybody can now agree on:

1. Users have the right to chose not to upgrade.
2. Those who do also have the right to expect continued support for the older version.
3. It is not uncommon to provide support in the form of free bug-fix updates.
4. Support can also provided by other means, i.e. privately.
5. There are remaining issues in v5.
6. Sage has not clearly stated how they'll support those facing these issues.

Since Sage has stated they will probably not do 3. and 4. has not worked fully for me so far, I fear 5. will never be addressed and would therefore like Sage to do 6.

Olive

[jominor]

Originally Posted by DynamoBen

OK guys, I get it some of you don't agree with my point of view that’s fine. In then end you don't have too. Some of you do agree and now are coming out with other concerns. Just saying my argument has no reasoning or has no "merit", or implying that myself or others are cheap really doesn't illuminate your point very well.

What concerns me is the number of sometimes-blatant personal attacks during this thread. Why can't everyone follow that old adage of "If you can't some something nice (about someone), don't say anything at all?"

It’s fine to debate, or attack, the topic but lets limit the discussion to the topic. In the end, Opus shouldn't need to edit posts, if we all behave and follow these principles things can continue in a civilized manner.

P.S. If you don't like the topic or the debate that is taking place in this thread then you may want to find some other thread to participate in.

I have to confess. I don't understand the difference between "reasoning isn't there" and "people don't understand the concept". It sounds, to me, like the same idea is being expressed.

That being said, I don't think it is a personal attack to say that people complaining about Sage's new policy are being at best, grossly unfair to Sage. Many companies charge far more for *upgrades* and make no promises about *updates*. Sage is doing nothing wrong, especially considering the near endless request for features.

People are complaining about bugfixes. That's common. I write software for a living, and a constant in the business is the belief that all bugfixes are included in the purchase price.

This simply isn't true, people. It isn't even implied. Software developers are people and people are human. This means that nothing that comes from developers will be perfect. In addition, a mistake doesn't necessarily imply negligence. Let's say, for example, that you paid your $80 and you have a bug that affects no one else. Should Sage be responsible for fixing this when it will almost certainly cost more than $80 to fix? What if the bug was caused by some software that you installed?

Who's responsible? Sage? You? That maker of that product?I wonder how many people with bugs rolledback to a pristine Windows installation so that the bug could truly be proven to be Sage's.

There is certainly at minimum, a "good faith" expectation of functionality, but it has to be considered that if certain bugs affect a mininum of people or some exotic situation, it probably isn't cost effective to fix it. It would be complete different if Sage didn't record, the EPG didn't work, or playback failed.

Why is the problem automatically assumed to be Sage's? I've read many people say that "Well, it works when I playback in another tool." However, few consider that that Sage feature works for hundreds of others, potentially thousands.

Ultimately, the "you get what you pay for" rule has to apply. I just read on CNet about another article on system that costs $23k. For this price, if a drive is about to go bad, the company will fasttrack a replacement that you can just plugin before the problem actually rears its head.

How many here want to pay this much for such service?

People have bandied about MCE, but this DRMs the media, and isn't nearly has expanded. To my knowledge, it has no commerical skip(plugin or otherwise), no placeshifter, and no user input of any kind.

Perhaps Sage should quadruple the price?

Edit: Sage has worked well for me over the years. I think that it is an excellent bargain and wouldn't hesitate to pay for it. I have been impressed by the functionality, flexibility, performance, and outstanding stability.

[Necro]

Just to make a point to Sage, people that have previously paid for the product and are willing to again are asking fairly important questions that most software companies tell their customers right off the bat, and are being repeatedly told 'Well, it's worth it...just pay and shut up.'

If I was a person thinking about using sage and trying to determine if I would or wouldn't make a purchase, this DEFINITELY would effect my decision.

More then any other factor.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Necro

Just to make a point to Sage, people that have previously paid for the product and are willing to again are asking fairly important questions that most software companies tell their customers right off the bat, and are being repeatedly told 'Well, it's worth it...just pay and shut up.'

If I was a person thinking about using sage and trying to determine if I would or wouldn't make a purchase, this DEFINITELY would effect my decision.

More then any other factor.

Most software companies wouldn't even have a forum like Sage. Most would just change the policy(as their EULAs give them that right) and thats it.


If I was a person thinking about Sage, I would ask

How stable?
How well supported?
What features?
How expandable?
How much?

I believe that Sage will answer these questions well.

If, on the other hand, anyone is basing a purchase on the nigh unrealistic expectation of unlimited bug fixes, unlimited upgrades, and software perfection in an $80 package, well, you *may* be disappointed. But try placeshifter first...

[Narflex]

For those of you concerned about EPG service, there's a simple fact you need to realize. We do not get our EPG data for free. The company that provides it to us could raise their prices by 100x....or they could go out of business. So therefore it's impossible for us to guarantee free EPG data forever.

And we stopped doing updates on V5.0 and ended at V5.0.4 because there are no known bugs in that version of the software which have a significant impact on usage. (there's always minor bugs due to the complex nature of software)

System configuration issues is the biggest reason for problems. Almost every user's PC is different in some way. SageTV may exhibit certain problems on certain configurations which is beyond our control. So many times what a few users find to be a 'bug' in SageTV is actually due to something specific to their system. We do our best to assist in resolving these, which is the main function of tech support.

This is what is meant by still supporting V5 but not planning on doing any future updates to it.

[ugh]

Sage is a good product. I've been using it since version 2.

One of the main reason I chose Sage over the "other" DVR products was the upgrade policy, the active community, and the EPG service.

But when someone asks me to spend more money...I feel I should shop around.

Your competitors offer - Free MediaMVP interface, integrated compression, a statement that their EPG is FREE, WEBserver control of PVR and their charged upgrades accompany a substantial feature set (sorry guys, these are still tweaks in my book).

I've paid for SageTV, clients, placeshifter licenses...$30 per year at least. Not to mention the hours I've spent futzing with things.

If it's costing $ for licensing, that's one thing...but XVID is open source and there's no mention of adding features that incured a cost to them. At this point, I'd feel better putting my $ to the STV and STVI developers...or at least knowing they get something from Sage.

So..what makes Sage stand apart from the rest at this point?

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by ugh

Your competitors offer - Free MediaMVP interface, integrated compression, a statement that their EPG is FREE, WEBserver control of PVR and their charged upgrades accompany a substantial feature set (sorry guys, these are still tweaks in my book).

So where's the problem? If you like the competitor, buy their product. I looked at a few PVR solutions a year ago, and Sage won by a mile (and I'm in the UK so the EPG isn't even available). But you think the competitor does better, that's your opinion, go for it!

[ajuhawk]

Let me first admit to having not read this whole thread. That said, I just want to throw out my opinion to Sage. So, FWIW:

1) I originally went with Sage (v2 or earlier) because it had the ability to do multiple tuners and other features I liked that no one else had at the time. I've stuck with Sage because there's been a tremendous amount of additonal content from users. Without this, Sage would be dead. Also, the fact that upgrades have been free has been a huge benefit. As other's have mentioned, I've shelled out cash for additional clients and such over the years and even bought additional tuners through Sage to help support them.

2) With the above in mind, they want to charge an upgrade fee for Sage v6. Fair enough. However, if this becomes habitual for them (i.e. 4 months from now it's another $30 for v7), then the competition will suddenly start deserving a careful second look. Sage has been and is FAR from bug free, however I've put up with that hoping that it'd be fixed. Causing consumers to pay for "bug fixes" (though they say it's new features) is a very common business practice that I can't support.

3) So, while I will most likely pay for this upgrade, if the next version of bug fixes comes at a price again, I fear it may be so long Sage...as the differences between Sage and the competition have become that much smaller.

IMHO.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by Narflex

For those of you concerned about EPG service, there's a simple fact you need to realize. We do not get our EPG data for free. The company that provides it to us could raise their prices by 100x....or they could go out of business. So therefore it's impossible for us to guarantee free EPG data forever.

System configuration issues is the biggest reason for problems. Almost every user's PC is different in some way. SageTV may exhibit certain problems on certain configurations which is beyond our control. So many times what a few users find to be a 'bug' in SageTV is actually due to something specific to their system. We do our best to assist in resolving these, which is the main function of tech support.

This is what is meant by still supporting V5 but not planning on doing any future updates to it.

Thanks for these clarifications. So, if I am to understand correctly:

1. The primary driver that is keeping EPG data is free is the cost Sage incurs from the EPG provider. If that cost rises, than Sage reserves the right to change it's policy.

2. Sage can obviously choose to begin charging for the EPG data for any reason it chooses. But at this point in time, Sage is unlikely to charge for this service unless their provider's rates increase.

3. When you say that Sage will continue to "support" v5.0, you mean that Sage will help v5.0 users work through issues with installing, configuring and using the software - but beyond that, bugfixes are unlikely to be forthcoming unless a significant issue is uncovered.

[AngelofDeth]

Originally Posted by ugh

Your competitors offer - Free MediaMVP interface, integrated compression, a statement that their EPG is FREE, WEBserver control of PVR and their charged upgrades accompany a substantial feature set (sorry guys, these are still tweaks in my book).

Are you talking about Beyond TV? Last I heard, their MVP support was a joke, compared to SageTV or even GBPVR. In fact, livetv didn't even work with it until recently, and its a user hack.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by ugh

Sage is a good product. I've been using it since version 2.

One of the main reason I chose Sage over the "other" DVR products was the upgrade policy, the active community, and the EPG service.

But when someone asks me to spend more money...I feel I should shop around.

Your competitors offer - Free MediaMVP interface, integrated compression, a statement that their EPG is FREE, WEBserver control of PVR and their charged upgrades accompany a substantial feature set (sorry guys, these are still tweaks in my book).

I've paid for SageTV, clients, placeshifter licenses...$30 per year at least. Not to mention the hours I've spent futzing with things.

If it's costing $ for licensing, that's one thing...but XVID is open source and there's no mention of adding features that incured a cost to them. At this point, I'd feel better putting my $ to the STV and STVI developers...or at least knowing they get something from Sage.

So..what makes Sage stand apart from the rest at this point?

I am STUNNED by this. Do you think that Sage writes itself? That, perhaps, the Sage developers "wish upon a star" and features just appear?

Sage has to pay developers to write code, pay someone to test, and pay people to man support. In additional, I've got some news for you. Everyone gets EPG data from the same source, so if that 100x price increase happens, guess what will happen to that competitor that is "Beyond" reproach?

People, Sage is a business. They have to meet expenses, pay salaries, perhaps issue merit bonuses, make a profit, namely, everything that you experience when you are at work. In addition, their expenses most likely go up each year, yet the price has been constant.

How would many react if they went to their bosses asking for their yearly raise, and the boss responded "Its time for the company to shop around."

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by jominor

If I was a person thinking about Sage, I would ask

How stable?
How well supported?
What features?
How expandable?
How much?

I believe that Sage will answer these questions well.

I guess that these are exactly the set of questions I have and I don't feel that they are all answered well (hence my questions in this thread).

How stable?

For me v5.0 is *very* stable. I never have to reboot to correct an issue with the software and Sage has never missed a recording (knock on wood). This is one reason I'm not going to jump right into upgrading at this point in time. I usually wait to upgrade in the tv "off-season", when problems with my upgraded environment aren't going to cause me to miss recordings.

How well supported?

To me, this is unclear. What is clear is that if you are on the latest version, then you will get great support (as I have always received great support from Sage in the past). But if I am a user who is staying on version 5.0, what kind of support can I expect once v6.0 is in production? Or, more to the point, if I am a new user who buys a full v6.0 license, how long can I expect my purchase to be supported and bug fixed (until v7.0 is released? until v8.0 is released? forever? this is not clear to me.)

What features? How expandable?

The features are obviously very well documented and they are great. In addition to the rock solid recording I already mentioned, I use both the Media MVP and Placeshifter. And while I do have some issues with Placeshifter, for the most part they are both awesome. And of course, one of the great selling points for me is the expandability of Sage and the user-developed plug-ins - which often provide great additional features in and of themselves.

How much?

To me, this is the other unclear question. It's clear that Sage costs $X for a full license for v6.0 and $Y to upgrade to v6.0. But what guarantees do I get for my $X or $Y?

+ How long will the license for which I paid $X be supported? (unclear)
+ Will that support include bug fixes? (once a new version is in production, probably not)
+ Will I be required to pay for an upgrade to each and every new version, or if I skip v6.0, can I upgrade straight from v5.0 to v7.0 for the same $Y? (probably, but unclear)
+ How often will I be asked to pay for an upgrade? (appears to be based on major point releases, for which there is no timetable, so this is unclear. However Sage has rev'ved the major version number 4 times since I bought v2 back in Jan 05, so this could be as often as 2 times per year. I doubt Sage would ask for an upgrade fee that often.... but the point is, I have no idea)
+ Will access to the EPG service continue to be available at no extra charge once my version is no longer supported? (the answer appears to be yes, as long as Sage's costs in this area do not change)

Please don't take these questions as a statement that I don't love SageTV or that I don't love the software, because I do. I am not even considering another vendor. I will probably even buy the upgrade.

But at this point in time, I am really happy with v5.0, and don't feel that an upgrade to v6.0 is necessary (based on the new features and based on the fact that my system is working great as-is today). So I have questions about what I can reasonably expect from Sage regarding my v5.0 software. My biggest question is: If I choose not to upgrade to v6.0, how does that effect my ability to upgrade to v7.0? That is, can I expect it to be a supported upgrade? And can I expect the license cost to be similar (< full price)?

Hope this helps folks understand where I (and probably others) are coming from.

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by jominor

People, Sage is a business. They have to meet expenses, pay salaries, perhaps issue merit bonuses, make a profit, namely, everything that you experience when you are at work. In addition, their expenses most likely go up each year, yet the price has been constant.

No kidding. And I am a consumer. I have to pay the mortgage, pay the utilities, pay tuitions, buy groceries, save for retirement, etc. So you will forgive me if I'd like to understand how Sage's licensing model will work going forward before I plunk down $30. There is a mentality in this thread that people who love Sage should just pay the $30 because $30 is not a lot of money. And you're right, in the big picture it is not a lot of money. But if it's going to be $30 every 6 months or every 12 months or every 24 months, then I'd like to understand that now rather than later. Or if I can choose to not upgrade now and incur no penalties later when I choose to upgrade to some future v7.0, then, again, I'd like to understand that now, too.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask what my $30 is going to buy, beyond just the software features that are available in the new version (support, ease of upgrading, EPG service, etc).