QAM support for SageTV

[COhiker]

This may well be addressed elsewhere (it's easy to get lost in these message boards) but I just want to confirm my impression:

Currently in August 2006, SageTV cannot use the QAM signals from the FusionHDTV 5 RT Lite and there is no workaround.

Does this seem correct? If it is, is it expected that eventually Sage would have that ability? I'm sure it's no trivial matter (or it would be available already) but it seems strange that it can accept OTA but not QAM.

[blade]

This pretty much explains it all when it comes to windows. QAM is possible in linux; however, Sage hasn't done anything with it yet to my knowledge.

[mikesm]

Is Sage working on support for QAM tuners under Linux? It would seem to me that this would enable Sage to really stand out from MCE and Myth and enables users to build some very powerful configurations. Since Sage has full interoperability between Linux and Windows, which not even Myth does today, we could take a few QAM tuners and stick them in a Linux system and feed Windows clients that take advantage of the much better driver support that windows has for accelerated playback.

I have a Linux system running as a NAS server, and it's quite an I/O beast - 6 SATA drives all hung off PCI-E controllers with software RAID. It really hauls a**, but is idle most of the time. It would be easy to add a Sage backend and tuners to this system, and feed windows clients via a CAT5 network.

One thing though, there would need to be a fair amount of configuration needed to map channels. In my area, Comcast not only sends broadcast channels + ESPN HD in the clear on HD, but also simulcasts the analog lineup in unencrypted QAM. This would mean the QAM tuner can support not just HD programming, also the full analog line up in native digital. The downside here is that there doesn't appear to be a way of setting this up automatically. That is, you have to scan through the channels, and map them on to the analog channels for EPG.

Still, this would make for a pretty amazing setup. The Linux drivers for many of the QAM cards are available, so it's really integrating the cards into Sage that's needed.

Thanks,
Mike

[blade]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Is Sage working on support for QAM tuners under Linux? It would seem to me that this would enable Sage to really stand out from MCE and Myth and enables users to build some very powerful configurations. Since Sage has full interoperability between Linux and Windows, which not even Myth does today, we could take a few QAM tuners and stick them in a Linux system and feed Windows clients that take advantage of the much better driver support that windows has for accelerated playback.

Myth already does QAM in linux.

That's exactly what I wanted to do. Build a linux server just for HD QAM and use windows for everything else. At one time there was some sort of undocumented QAM in the linux version, but I think it was very unrefined and possibly removed in later releases. No idea if they're working on it. I haven't read much of anything regarding QAM in Sage.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by blade

Myth already does QAM in linux.

That's exactly what I wanted to do. Build a linux server just for HD QAM and use windows for everything else. At one time there was some sort of undocumented QAM in the linux version, but I think it was very unrefined and possibly removed in later releases. No idea if they're working on it. I haven't read much of anything regarding QAM in Sage.

Right. Because Myth does QAM already, the drivers are available. But Lunix support for hardware video accleration is quite dicey, and nothing like Purevideo, etc... is available. So it's a great backend platform now, but not so good for driving HDTV's. Hence a hybrid system with Linux as the backend and Windows as the front seems like a great compromise. The trouble is that Myth doesn't have a decent windows front end, and MCE doesn't run on linux. A nice opportunity for Sage exists because of this. And they have a great architecture for distributed operation which would enable all this.

Of course, if QAM on Linux won't be supported by Sage, that would be good to know too.

Thanks,
Mike

[davefred99]

I am no programmer so my opinion might be way of base but ! I think that with all the efforts to crack dvd encryption and drm schemes there has got to be a way to make QAM HD work under windows. I am pretty sure some 10th grader in a third world country could probably write a driver for windows to enable QAM tuning. The problem as I see it is that no US software company wants to go out and do it for fear or wakeing up a sleeping giant. The first PVR/Software company that does it will get sued so fast your head wont stop spinning and its a risk there not willing to take.
I only hope that somehow someone figures out away to slip it into our hands anyways.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by davefred99

I am no programmer so my opinion might be way of base but ! I think that with all the efforts to crack dvd encryption and drm schemes there has got to be a way to make QAM HD work under windows. I am pretty sure some 10th grader in a third world country could probably write a driver for windows to enable QAM tuning. The problem as I see it is that no US software company wants to go out and do it for fear or wakeing up a sleeping giant. The first PVR/Software company that does it will get sued so fast your head wont stop spinning and its a risk there not willing to take.
I only hope that somehow someone figures out away to slip it into our hands anyways.

There is no issue with legality here. It has to do with how microsoft implemented the BDA API. It's sheer incompetance, not malice. Dvico and others who build QAM tuners all have apps that come with the card that tune QAM just fine. There is just no way to do this under windows using their BDA API.

If this were a problem legally, it would be an issue for OTA programming as well.

thanks,
mike

[davefred99]

Originally Posted by mikesm

There is no issue with legality here. It has to do with how microsoft implemented the BDA API. It's sheer incompetance, not malice. Dvico and others who build QAM tuners all have apps that come with the card that tune QAM just fine. There is just no way to do this under windows using their BDA API.

If this were a problem legally, it would be an issue for OTA programming as well.

thanks,
mike

I dont know about the lack of malice or incompetence. Microsoft surely could write a BDA API to do it, but for whatever reason they just dont see it as important. My best guess is still the same. They have agreed not to open a huge can of worms and are in bed with the cable companies and movie production houses. After all have they not indicated that it will be available sometime in Vista but not until they make sure its so cluttered up with DRM and such to makes it useless accept to OEM computer makers.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by davefred99

I dont know about the lack of malice or incompetence. Microsoft surely could write a BDA API to do it, but for whatever reason they just dont see it as important. My best guess is still the same. They have agreed not to open a huge can of worms and are in bed with the cable companies and movie production houses. After all have they not indicated that it will be available sometime in Vista but not until they make sure its so cluttered up with DRM and such to makes it useless accept to OEM computer makers.

Regardless of the motivation, if we want to see QAM tuner support in Sage, it will require Sage supporting proprietary extensions from a QAM tuner vendor or implementing QAM support in Linux. Either would be fine by me.

Thanks,
Mike

[Tighr]

Originally Posted by davefred99

They have agreed not to open a huge can of worms and are in bed with the cable companies and movie production houses.

If that were true, then why do cable companies continue to offer content using QAM? You would think that they would force customers to get a cable box in order to receive any digital channels (and some do). My TV doesn't have a QAM tuner, so I'm very interested in getting Sage to record QAM so that I can watch ABC, as that is the only one I can't pick up OTA.

On another note, the local CBS affiliate wont allow my cable company to rebroadcast its signal, so I'm screwed either way and need both QAM and OTA in order to get all the channels in town. NBC and Fox play nice with both.

[Stealth1971]

If a device were available to support QAM in Windows - what would be the interest level? All I can say is that my company has working prototype and is trying to get the hardware config finalized for a release by the end of the year.

I will hopefully have more info soon.

Stealth -
Venturality, Inc.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Stealth1971

If a device where available to support QAM in Windows were available what would be the interest level? All I can say is that my company has working prototype and is trying to get the hardware config finalized for a release by the end of the year.

I will hopefully have more info soon.

Stealth -
Venturality, Inc.

Well, there are QAM tuners available today from DVICO. The software support is OK but not that great. I think the card could be very popular if it had one or more of the following:

1) The ability to map to the EPG all digital video streams available, not just HD streams with a valid PSIP. Many cable systems are now simulcasting analog channels in digital and unencrypted. Being able to tune and record these programs and map those channels to the EPG would be VERY desirable.

2) Multicard support, so we could have 2 or more cards in a backend product. Many of the cards out there today have issues with multituner support.

3) Being able to circumvent the limits of the BDA driver problem. If you could enable the BDA driver to do the right thing for QAM tuners that would be outstanding, but I am not sure that is possible for you. This would enable it's use in MCE as well as Sage, and that would be a huge market.

4) Enabling Sage to use a "side" API to access QAM channel programming. If you can't use BDA but develop an alternate interface that Sage fully supported, that would be helpful too.

5) Being able to integrate Cablecard at a later date. Again, I don't think this is possible, but everyone here is supremely interested in it.

Others may have different priorities, but this should get the ball rolling. Can your product address any of these features? How does it differe from the DVICO Fusion series?

Thanks,
mike

[Stealth1971]

Mike -
Great questions!

I can say YES to all of the question except #5 as CableLabs is only allowing the big boys to get certified at this time.

I cant really say to much more until we are closer to the launch...

Thanks -

Stealth

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Stealth1971

Mike -
Great questions!

I can say YES to all of the question except #5 as CableLabs is only allowing the big boys to get certified at this time.

I cant really say to much more until we are closer to the launch...

Thanks -

Stealth

Sir, I believe if you can deliver #1-4 in a cost effective package then you will have a major hit on your hands. No one comes close to doing that today. Please let us know if we can be helpful in any way.

Thanks,
Mike

[mikesm]

PS If you can make the BDA interface work so QAM support is inside MCE as well as Sage, I am not sure you need to have a "side" interface. So I don't see the need for having a yes to #3 and #4... Could you clarify this? That is, can you get the BDA interface to do the right thing for QAM tuning?

Thanks,
mike

[Stealth1971]

Mike -

We are working hard to get create this solution cost effectively. Actually hardware is our last hurdle as we are starting to get a good comfort level with our software. We plan on sending out Alpha units to testers in the next 4 weeks.


To answer your questions about the BDA interfaces - all I can say is that we bypass the need for BDA interfaces and requires no driver installation.....

Stealth

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Stealth1971

Mike -

We are working hard to get create this solution cost effective. Actually hardware is our last hurdle as we are starting to get good comfort level with out software. We plan on sending out Alpha units to testers in the next 4 weeks.


To answer your questions about the BDA interfaces - all I can say is that we bypass the need for BDA interfaces and requires no driver installation.....

Stealth

Interesting. Please post some more info here when you feel it's appropriate. Needless to say there are many potential beta testers here who would love to give you feedback when the time is right. I don't think you'd have to recruit very hard to get a lot of cooperation. Good luck.

Thanks,
Mike

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by davefred99

I dont know about the lack of malice or incompetence. Microsoft surely could write a BDA API to do it, but for whatever reason they just dont see it as important.

They didn't do it for two reasons:

1) There's very, very little available on clear QAM that's not available OTA, as such there's a rather small market for unencrypted QAM tuning, smaller than the already small ATSC tuning market.

2) If they did (clear QAM tuning), they'd open up the: "Why can't MCE get everything my cable box can?" can of worms.

An tuning encrypted QAM is a whole nother ball of wax.

[blade]

Originally Posted by stanger89

1) There's very, very little available on clear QAM that's not available OTA, as such there's a rather small market for unencrypted QAM tuning, smaller than the already small ATSC tuning market.

If people had the choice of the same stations via OTA or QAM would most still use OTA? Just seems like the market for QAM would be larger than OTA due to availability. I have all of 1 OTA station available and it would require a large outdoor antenna so I'm stuck with nothing. Sometimes I feel like the last person without any HD content at all.

I think there are 5-6 unencrypted through my cable via QAM. Not a lot, but better than nothing.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by blade

If people had the choice of the same stations via OTA or QAM would most still use OTA? Just seems like the market for QAM would be larger than OTA due to availability. I have all of 1 OTA station available and it would require a large outdoor antenna so I'm stuck with nothing. Sometimes I feel like the last person without any HD content at all.

I think there are 5-6 unencrypted through my cable via QAM. Not a lot, but better than nothing.

Is QAM over analog cable or digital cable? Is the card doing the function of a set top box, for unencrypted QAM?