Multiple Lineups

[CPA]

I need to get multiple lineups working in Sage. i have benn doing alot of reading in the forums and it just is not clicking for me. I understand that I need to have XMLTV installed but after that in gets crazy. I've read the updated XMLTV guide but I am not getting it.

"Before going into back into SageTV to test the plugin, make sure you have an XML listings file from XMLTV. And make sure you supply this XML listings in the SageTV directory and that it is named epgdata.xml. If you use my .BAT file code below (See Step 5) for XMLTV, then it will put your listings in the SageTV directory properly."

What XML listings file, from where?

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

What XML listings file, from where?

XMLTV is an alternative to get guide data for SageTV (mainly for countries not directly supported by SageTV like USA and Canada, or countries with poor tvtv support)

The basics of XMLTV is:

* use a software that gets tv listing in XMLTV format. This software is called a grabber and produces XML files (usually it produces one XMLTV file)

* use a plugin in SageTV to load the XMLTV file (or more than one XMLTV files).

I can be wrong but you don't necessarily have to use XMLTV to have multiple lineups in SageTV. Usually you need more than one lineup because you have two different video feeds (for instance cable and satellite). But you'll also need at least two video sources (that is two capture cards), and you'll be able to tell SageTV to use the "cable lineup" for capture card one, and "satellite lineup" for capture card two.

I guess that you are only using one capture card right now and that's why you are wondering how to have multiple lineups...

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

Well, here's the deal. I am attempting to use three different lineups with three tuners, yet have all the channels laid out in one EPG. I am trying to set up certain channels to only record on certain tuners. For instance, record the PBS-HD channel but only through the Motorola firewire box, not the s-video box (since S-video will down convert the signal). The problem is that the lineup for the two Moto outputs is the same. I would like to be able to turn HD channels off on the Moto S-video lineup and turn digital channels off on the firewire output (since 5C won't allow recording). When I try to turn off channels on the firewire lineup, it also turns them off on the s-video lineup. Does this make sense? Any ideas? See below

TUNER LIST
2-78 ~ Hauppauge MCE 500 #2
2-78 + 782-788(HDTV-CLEAR) ~ Motorola DCT-6200-#1 (over firewire)
2-781 ~ Motorola DCT-6200-#2 (through S-Video to Hauppauge MCE 500 #1)

MERIT
2-78 (Analog)
Merit#1- Hauppauge MCE 500 #2
Merit#2 - Motorola DCT-6200-#1 (over firewire)
Merit#3 - Motorola DCT-6200-#2 (through S-Video of Hauppauge MCE 500 #1)

100-781 (Digital)
Merit#1 - Motorola DCT-6200-#2 (through S-Video of Hauppauge MCE 500 #1)

782-788 (HDTV in the clear)
Merit#1 - Motorola DCT-6200-#1 (over firewire)

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

Does this make sense? Any ideas?

Yes it does make sense.

The only solution for avoiding XMLTV is to find another lineup for the Firewire source. I don't know if it is possible as I'm not familiar with USA lineups offered by SageTV, but you may be able to choose a lineup close to the S-Video one and may be able to tweak the channels numbers used for tuning (on the Firewire).

However : it seems to me that even if you do manage to solve it that way, you'll not be able to avoid conflicts because you'll be using the same external tuner on two internal tuners. So SageTV will allow recording on the S-Video and the Firewire at the same time... (for SageTV those two sources are not the same). Two Motorola STB would prevent this.

With XMLTV However (at least with my plugin) you can really arrange your channels the way you want, so creating two distincts lineups with only one set of channels is possible (but the "possible conflict" issue remains).

For using XMLTV you have to download the XMLTV grabber for North America (you'll find appropriate links on my web site : see my signature). Once you download the XMLTV grabber, be sure to read the documentation of the grabber because you have to subscribe to the Zap2it web site before using the grabber.

Once you are familiar enough with the grabber, the you can use my plugin to setup your lineups as you wish (you'll also find on my web site a simple "how to" for setting up my XMLTV plugin).

Regards

[CPA]

I apologize for not being very clear. I do have 2 seperate motorola boxes. So iam running a total of three tuners.

I did download the XMLTV grabber from your link, but I just don't know how to run it. I am afraid I am not very good with .bats and what not. Any help on using the grabber?

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

I did download the XMLTV grabber from your link, but I just don't know how to run it. I am afraid I am not very good with .bats and what not. Any help on using the grabber?

If you use my plugin you'll not have to use .bat

But you have to use the grabber interactively at least one time before.

So to start I'll assume that you have unzipped the grabber in C:\XMLTV.

You should find a C:\XMLTV\doc\man folder, in this folder there is a tv_grab_na_dd.txt : this is the help file for the North American grabber. It will explains you how to use the command line arguments and how to register with Zap2it (right after the "DESCRIPTION" heading).

After registering with Zap2it, you have to configure the grabber, to do this, open a command prompt (just type "cmd" without the quotes in the Window "Run" dialog (Start -> Run)).

In this command prompt type: "cd c:\xmltv" (without the quotes, and if the xmltv.exe is really in this folder on your drive)

Then type: "xmltv.exe tv_grab_na_dd --configure" (again without the quotes). Note that the "tv_grab_na_dd --configure" are the command line arguments of the grabber, this will be useful for setting up the XMLTV plugin afterward.

The XMLTV grabber will then ask you a series of question regarding its configuration and when it ends the grabber is all setup.

Right after configuring the grabber you can download the XMLTV data, usually you'll type in the command prompt:
"xmltv.exe tv_grab_na_dd --output epg.xml"

This tells the grabber to download the guide data and save it to the C:\XMLTV\epg.xml file (this is this file that my XMLTV Importer will ask you to locate).

After this you'll have to setup my XMLTV Importer (do it while SageTV is completely shut down and make sure your are using Java 1.5).

During the XMLTV Import Wizard, you'll be asked what is the command line for your grabber. This is optionnal (you can run the grabber manually), if you want to use this option, just locate the xmltv.exe program and type the command line arguments: "tv_grab_na_dd --output epg.xml" (without the quotes, and you can tweak it to your liking).

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

Thank you so much for your help. I'm with you so far. Once i get to the channel setup part of the wizard, I'm a little confused. Can I have duplicate channels on two sources. Say for instance I want AMC-78 available on my hauppauge tuner but I aslo want it available on the firewire tuner in case the Hauppauge is already recording. Also, would I setup 3 lineups; one for analog Hauppauge (2-78), one for s-video Moto (2-781) and one for firewire Moto (2-78 + 782-788).

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

Can I have duplicate channels on two sources. Say for instance I want AMC-78 available on my hauppauge tuner but I aslo want it available on the firewire tuner in case the Hauppauge is already recording. Also, would I setup 3 lineups; one for analog Hauppauge (2-78), one for s-video Moto (2-781) and one for firewire Moto (2-78 + 782-788).

Yes you can do this.

First step is to create three lineups in the Importer:

* Analog : For the Hauppauge
* Satellite (if the Motorola is really satellite of course, otherwise name it "Cable") : For the Motorola over S-video
* HD : For the Motorola over Firewire

Then in the first list of channels the Importer is showing :

* Edit name / call-sign
* Type the right channel number : it is used for tuning the channel on your tuner (either the direct channel number, or the number used by a IR blaster or software channel changer)
* choose the right lineup (obviously begin with the lineups with the most channels)

Then duplicates your channels in the "additionnal channels" tabs. In this tab the same information as the main channels tab is requested :

* Name / call-sign
* channel number
* lineup

and you get two additional properties:

* channel id: here you basically have two choices. Either you type the same channel id as the channel you are duplicating and as a consequence SageTV will see it as the same logical channel (and will dispatch recordings of this channels on both tuners) or create a different id : so SageTV will see it as a different channel of the original channels
* "same as" : here you choose the original channel you want to duplicate by creating this new channel.

So for AMC-78 you may have this in the "main" tab:

id = amc-78.zap2it.com / Name = AMC-78 / Call sign = AMC-78 / Number = 78 / lineup = Analog

And in the "additional" tab:

id = amc-78.zap2it.com (same id) / Name = AMC-78 (same name) / Call-sign = AMC-78 (same call sign)/ Number = 380 (different number) / lineup = HD (Firewire lineup)/ Same as = amc-78.zap2it.com (the channel you are duplicating)

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

So if i set AMC-78 with identical info (including number) on all three lineups, will sage make three identical recordings at the same time off each source, or will Sage make one recording off one source based on the merit settings in Sage properties?

[hemicuda]

Originally Posted by StephaneM

After this you'll have to setup my XMLTV Importer (do it while SageTV is completely shut down and make sure your are using Java 1.5).

Have the bugs been resolved w/ java 1.5 yet? I've been keeping mine at 1.4x due to all the posts about problems w/ 1.5+

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

So if i set AMC-78 with identical info (including number) on all three lineups, will sage make three identical recordings at the same time off each source, or will Sage make one recording off one source based on the merit settings in Sage properties?

SageTV will record only one show on one tuner (tuner choose based on merit and use). But that behavior is not a direct consequence of what you choose for creating your channels (instead it's because of show properties: SageTV only record the same program once).

So the only thing that is important for you is to choose if you use the same ID for a duplicate channel or not:

* When you choose the same ID: for SageTV the channel is the same and it will only show once on the program guide, and SageTV will choose the right tuner for recording / live tv based on merit and use.

* When you choose a different ID: for SageTV channel is not the same and you will see more than one AMC-78 in the guide

For me, the most elegant solution is to have only one AMC-78 in the guide and let SageTV do the work. But if one of your AMC-78 is availabe in HD on the Firewire tuner, then I'll specifically create a AMC-78 HD channel. So you'll end up with one AMC-78 and one AMC-78 HD in your guide (otherwise you'll not be able to specifically record one the HD tuner).

Regards,
Stéphane.

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by hemicuda

Have the bugs been resolved w/ java 1.5 yet? I've been keeping mine at 1.4x due to all the posts about problems w/ 1.5+

To my knowledge no it has not been resolved.

But it seems that the issue is only to be seen if your are using VMR9 renderer and Exclusive Full Screen mode.

In my case, I'm using VMR9 without Exclusive Full Screen and have not experienced any failure with SageTV (except that sometimes when changing a channel SageTV will freeze but I think it's unrelated and I managed to map a remote button to kill the SageTV UI and relaunch it)

Note: I'm using SageTV as a service and only load the SageTV UI when I need it. My HTPC is only used to watch TV, so when I click on the "Watch TV" activity on my Harmony remote it launch the SageTV UI and power up TV and speakers, and when I click "Shut down" it shut down SageTV and power off equipments (only the computer is "always on").

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

Question: Is there any way to copy over the channel lineups from channels to Additional Channels? Otherwise I have to copy and paste each column for each channel, very tedious and sometimes dangerous work. After about 15 copies i begin to forget what I am copying to where.

Also I do use vmr9 with FSE. WHat kind of problems can I expect.

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

Question: Is there any way to copy over the channel lineups from channels to Additional Channels?

You can edit the clone_channels.xml file manually (this file is in the Importer install directory. After editing verify that the XML is still valid by opening it in Internet Explorer)

Also I do use vmr9 with FSE. WHat kind of problems can I expect.

SageTV will quit to desktop randomly (wether watching a video or not). I don't know if this is tied to some hardware configuration (especially video card) or not.

That said do you have any specific reason to use FSE? In my case I don't have any video tearing etc.. by not using FSE (though I choosed the right refresh rate for my video card : that is 50Hz => this is also the native frequency of my RPTV and I'm only playing 25fps video. If I choose 60Hz, video quality and smoothness is also very good, but obviously not as smooth as when using 50Hz because the graphic driver must insert extra frames).

Also not using FSE does allow me to use my other utilities that displays transparent notification windows over the video (mainly : volume indicator and phone call notification), with FSE those notifications would flicker a lot (and probably would force SageTV to quit to desktop).

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

I am still having trouble with the multipl lineups. In the additional channels secton, if I am simply duplicating the same exact channel but setting it to tune from a different source, do I need anything in the 'same as' field? It does not let me paste anything in that field, therefore I have to scroll throuhg all the channel ID numbers, yet there is no indication as what ID is for what channel.

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

I am still having trouble with the multipl lineups. In the additional channels secton, if I am simply duplicating the same exact channel but setting it to tune from a different source, do I need anything in the 'same as' field?

Yes you have to, otherwise you would be creating a channel without program guide. As SageTV must choose one of the identical channels to build up the guide, I cannot guarantee that it will take the one with data and if it does I don't know if SageTV will correctly record one those channels without guide data.

It does not let me paste anything in that field, therefore I have to scroll throuhg all the channel ID numbers, yet there is no indication as what ID is for what channel.

Yes you cannot paste anything as it is a pure drop down list, but you can navigate with the keyboard inside the list (so you can type "A" on your keyboard and the list will scroll to the first Id begining with "A" and use the arrows keys from then)

It may be easier though to edit the XML files directly, just copy and rename the channels.xml file to clone_channels.xml and add a same-as="xxxxx" attribute where xxxx match the id attribute (and of course edit the lineup attribute to the right lineup).

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

OK, I did finally get this working, thanks to your very detailed and helpful instructions. I ended up editing the XML file directly in Excel. Excel made it much easier to manipulate (copy/paste). However, now I am having trouble setting the retrieval of the epg data. Suddenly I realized all my epg data ends tomorrow night. At the end of the wizard, I scheduled a time to do to download the info, but it does not seem to be doing it. Any ideas?

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

At the end of the wizard, I scheduled a time to do to download the info, but it does not seem to be doing it. Any ideas?

For the unattended operation of the Importer (including launching the XMLTV grabber) you have to:

* make a donation and install the donator version of the Importer (If you don't the Importer will launch but will do nothing)
* make sure that a Windows user is logged onto the PC (otherwise you need to edit the scheduled task in Windows control panel to set up a Windows username and password for the task to start)
* review the Windows task scheduler to see if the task was launched or not
* review the command line arguments of the grabber (you can copy the command line in the forum for advice).

Regards,
Stéphane.

[CPA]

I do want to set up automation and would be more than happy to make a donaion for the service. Would I need to uninstall the previoos version and install the new, or can I install the new over the old? Would I need to back up the channel lineup xml's? In the meantime, is there a way to update this manually?

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by CPA

Would I need to uninstall the previoos version and install the new, or can I install the new over the old? Would I need to back up the channel lineup xml's?

When upgrading to donator version, you need to uninstall and install the new version. However the uninstaller doesn't remove your settings. So you can always uninstall without loosing your settings (lineups / xmltv source etc...)

When upgrading to a newer version (1.7 to 1.8 for instance) you can install over the old one (though uninstalling first is always the best option).

In the meantime, is there a way to update this manually?

You can:

1) Run the grabber manually from the command line: xmltv tv_grab_na_dd --output epg.xml (this will download new XMLTV data to the epg.xml file in the XMLTV.exe directory)
2) Once the epg.xml download is over, run the Importer (wizard mode or not)
3) Force SageTV to reload the EPG (you can do this simply by installing the Web Server Plugin by Nielm) or by enabling / disabling a channel in SageTV. If you don't force the EPG reload, you'll have to wait the next SageTV automatic update (every 24 hours).

Regards,
Stéphane.