MVP Blinking black screen + Sage "booting up" screen.

[Fallen Kell]

Originally Posted by _Demo_

If this always happen at the same segment in the video/audio it's a bug I have recently fixed (it was new to the latest mvp.bin). I will try to post an updated version as soon as I have cleared up some other modifications I have been working on.

_Demo_

Not entirely sure... I mean, if I watch from the beginning of the file, it usually stops at about the same spot (not sure if it is the exact same spot though). I have usually just been fast-forwarding to the spot where it left off and continue to watch, until it does it again, and I rinse, and repeat

I'll do some more detailed testing and let you know, but I am headed to a BBQ... Will probably be late tonight.

[taltman]

I've been following this thread and a few others...I need some help.

I upgraded my Sage box to version 5.04 and just recieved a brand new Wireless MVP (firmware v 2.05).

My wireless setup is as follows:

SageTV Box-->Wireless<--->Linksys AP<--->Wireless<--->Wireless MVP


The MVP can obtain an IP address and assosicate to my wireless network just fine. It can scan the network and find the SageTV Server.

Once I click on go it just sits there saying "loading application" with the dots scrolling by.

I enabled logging and my log files look exactly like the first post in this thread. A little help please?

I've tried "downgrading" to version 5.03 but that didn't help either.

/Tal

P.S. My auto-signature is not exactly up to date...

[_Demo_]

If it displays "at last block" the transfer is most likely successful so the issues is something else after it starts loading.

_Demo_

[Fallen Kell]

Originally Posted by taltman

I've been following this thread and a few others...I need some help.

I upgraded my Sage box to version 5.04 and just recieved a brand new Wireless MVP (firmware v 2.05).

My wireless setup is as follows:

SageTV Box-->Wireless<--->Linksys AP<--->Wireless<--->Wireless MVP


The MVP can obtain an IP address and assosicate to my wireless network just fine. It can scan the network and find the SageTV Server.

Once I click on go it just sits there saying "loading application" with the dots scrolling by.

I enabled logging and my log files look exactly like the first post in this thread. A little help please?

I've tried "downgrading" to version 5.03 but that didn't help either.

/Tal

P.S. My auto-signature is not exactly up to date...

Are there "blocks" that fill across the bottom of the screen where you have the "loading application screen" or does it simply say "loading application" and nothing happen at all underneath those words?

At one time I had it only display "loading application" but then nothing else occured. I traced that down to the wireless network strength in the location. Repositioning the antenna to get a better signal allowed me to get past that issue. But even once I was past that part I still had network signal/speed issues. Again, that was one of the symtpoms of my poor network signal in that room, not a software issue.

You have a two-fold speed issue though in your setup. Because both your server AND the mvp are connected on the wireless network, you may very well run into issues. In a wireless network, only one device can talk at any given time, and in this case, you will also run into the issue where not only can one device only talk at once, but your data will be transmitted first to the AP, and then retransmitted from the AP to your mvp. So there are two distinct times in the network where different devices need to transmit the data to get to your mvp. (At least I am pretty sure this is how it will work, unless I am thinking of the ad-hoc network, I sometimes get them confused, but I believe the ad-hoc network the devices can communicate directly with each other and only forward the data if the device is not within range...).

Anyway, my point is that due to having both devices on a wireless connection, you almost effectively lose half your network speed (so if you are capable of 54mbps, then it will effectively be 27mbps of throughput from your server to the mvp, and if you are not running at full speed, which I suspect you are not, you are getting even less).

There might be some trial and error things that you can do, but the first thing I would try is to connect your server by ethernet wire to your network, and see if things change. Also, I am not sure if your version of the Linksys AP has this capability, but if you can see what the signal strengths are of all your wireless connections that might give you an idea of where your problem is. I am attaching an example of what I mean:



As you can see at the bottom you can see the signal strength of all devices connected to my AP at this moment (edit: sorry for the poor quality screenshot, the very bottom where you can see "Clients" the blue/gray bar is the signal strength with the number in it stating "43%", the numbers before that bar show the actual signal strength, the noise floor, and the SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio), sorry, but don't have much hosting space at the moment because I am bringing my own server online shortly). Again, as I have previously stated, I am using the DD-WRT linux distribution on my AP, so I have a lot more capabilities then using the regular software that it came with. But looking at a status screen like that will give you a good start, since you can also see that my network is currently only running at 36mbps because the signal strength is to weak to the only client connected to it at the moment. You will find that many consumer level AP's will slow down their speed to the worst connected device, even though faster speeds are capabile to other devices in the network, everything will slow down to the least common denominator (same is true if you connect a 802.11b wireless device onto a 802.11b/g network, the entire network will slow down to b speeds, not just the b device).

Again, I am not entirely familiar with your complete setup without more details, but signal strength, number/types of wireless devices, and the fact that your server is also connecting wirelessly are the first things that pop into my head in terms of troubleshooting your problem.

[taltman]

I've checked the wireless strength and it seems to be strong enough, somewhere between 3 to 4 bars (according to the MVP software).

The "loading application" window appears, and at the bottom the square progress bars keep moving (it keeps going and going and going, and never stops). I tried waiting like 10 to 20 minutes, but how long does it take to load a 2 mb file?

I've tried a wired connection between the MVP and the Linksys Broadband wireless router (its the WRTG45 something or another model - more details later)...that didn't work.

Tonight I'm going to try two things:

1) a wired connection between the SageTV box and the router, with the MVP also connected via wired connection

2) I'm going to load a new version of the mvp.bin file supplied by SageTV support. I opened a case last night about this problem....

/Tal

[Jester]

I received my wireless MVP today and it has the dreaded blink issue. It's a Sage issue, no doubt about it.

For grins I loaded the standard MVP server software on another wireless pc on my LAN and the MVP worked fine (a tougher task).

My layout:
Router downstairs with wired to the Sage server. MVP upstairs. Second pc upstairs on the LAN is wireless to the same router downstairs. So, connecting the Hauppauge software to the MVP is:
wireless -> router -> wireless MVP This works!

What does not work:
wired Sage pc -> router -> wireless MVP

I can't wait to get a solution soon. If I have to add a bridge/repeater, I could have just used my old wired MVP and saved some $$$$.

The WAF score is dropping fast!

[taltman]

Originally Posted by taltman

I've checked the wireless strength and it seems to be strong enough, somewhere between 3 to 4 bars (according to the MVP software).

The "loading application" window appears, and at the bottom the square progress bars keep moving (it keeps going and going and going, and never stops). I tried waiting like 10 to 20 minutes, but how long does it take to load a 2 mb file?

I've tried a wired connection between the MVP and the Linksys Broadband wireless router (its the WRTG45 something or another model - more details later)...that didn't work.

Tonight I'm going to try two things:

1) a wired connection between the SageTV box and the router, with the MVP also connected via wired connection

2) I'm going to load a new version of the mvp.bin file supplied by SageTV support. I opened a case last night about this problem....

/Tal

So I tried option #2 first before changing my topology. This did not help. I didn't realize that my wireless connection to my sage server was fairly poor.

As expected option #1 worked as advertised. So in my case it is indeed a wireless problem.

I upgraded my linksys box to the DD-WRT distro and upgraded the wireless output power from 28 mW to 70 mW. The signal strength is much stronger now for the wireless devices.

I'll send an update tomorrow, gotta let the wife sleep tonight

/Tal

[taltman]

I went out and purchased the linksys high gain antennas, and increased the wattage again on the AP. The wireless connectivity is very strong right now, yet the MVP still will not boot up - I still have the "loading application" problem - the scroll bar continues to go by non-stop.

I will try to use the hauppauge software to test the mvp. I'm starting to think that Sage is too strick with the tftp timeout values, or does not allow for too much delay.

I wonder if the SageTV code has been changed to adapt to wireless technologies and response times. It almost seems like they assume that everything will respond under 1 ms.

Anyone else have any ideas? Besides increasing the Wattage of the AP are there other wireless settings that I could adjust? I've turned off most security settings other than the basic WEP authentication.

[Jester]

Thanks for ruling that out. I was about to buy a high gain antenna myself. I guess I could move my wirelessMVP right next to the router to see if it works but I tend to agree that it has little to do with signal strength. Too bad.

[_Demo_]

Originally Posted by taltman

I went out and purchased the linksys high gain antennas, and increased the wattage again on the AP. The wireless connectivity is very strong right now, yet the MVP still will not boot up - I still have the "loading application" problem - the scroll bar continues to go by non-stop.

I will try to use the hauppauge software to test the mvp. I'm starting to think that Sage is too strick with the tftp timeout values, or does not allow for too much delay.

I wonder if the SageTV code has been changed to adapt to wireless technologies and response times. It almost seems like they assume that everything will respond under 1 ms.

Anyone else have any ideas? Besides increasing the Wattage of the AP are there other wireless settings that I could adjust? I've turned off most security settings other than the basic WEP authentication.

Could you please post your SageTV debug log?

Thanks

_Demo_

[_Demo_]

Originally Posted by Jester

Thanks for ruling that out. I was about to buy a high gain antenna myself. I guess I could move my wirelessMVP right next to the router to see if it works but I tend to agree that it has little to do with signal strength. Too bad.

Did you try the updated mvp.bin posted in this thread?

Thanks

_Demo_

[Jester]

Yes. And I ran another version of mvp that Sage tech support sent me.

I connected the mvp to a tv in the same room within eyesight of the router and couldn't get it to connect!

I was able to connect the mvp wirelessly to a pc in my LAN that is also wireless to the router and running standard Hauppauge software.

I have no doubt that Sage software does not work with mvp wireless hardware. (If it's that buggy, it's not ready for retail sale to "Regular people that don't have IT degrees")

I'm real close to refund time. I took BeyondTV off my system for this?

[taltman]

Hi Everyone,

Attached to this post you'll find two files. SageTV debug log as requested, and one etherreal packet captures. I have one more capture but the forum will not allow me to upload it (compressed the file is still larger than 1 MB). I can send the file to someone via email if they really want it.

Using the following topology:
SageTV server with wireless <-> AP <-> WirelessMVP

I have the following findings:

1) The hauppauge MVP server works fine. The MVP will boot. Playing mp3 files, and viewing pictures are perfect. High quality video playback studders but at least the MVP boots.

I have an ethereal packet capture of the MVP booting. See the zip file (its called something like mvp_haupp-complete) - as noted I can email this file as needed.

2) Using SageTV as expected did not boot the MVP. See the zip file for the ethereal packet capture for comparisons.

I am also fairly close to asking for a refund as well =/

/Tal

[Deadbolt]

Originally Posted by taltman

Hi Everyone,

Attached to this post you'll find two files. SageTV debug log as requested, and one etherreal packet captures. I have one more capture but the forum will not allow me to upload it (compressed the file is still larger than 1 MB). I can send the file to someone via email if they really want it.

Using the following topology:
SageTV server with wireless <-> AP <-> WirelessMVP

I have the following findings:

1) The hauppauge MVP server works fine. The MVP will boot. Playing mp3 files, and viewing pictures are perfect. High quality video playback studders but at least the MVP boots.

I have an ethereal packet capture of the MVP booting. See the zip file (its called something like mvp_haupp-complete) - as noted I can email this file as needed.

2) Using SageTV as expected did not boot the MVP. See the zip file for the ethereal packet capture for comparisons.

I am also fairly close to asking for a refund as well =/

/Tal

Try hooking it up wired first until it loads the SageTV software...then power it off with the green button on the remote (soft power off), unplug the wired connection, and power on with the green button on the remote.

[Jester]

Deadbolt,
I tried that yesterday. It will not work. It hangs waiting for the wired connection. Have you made that work?


How does Sage expect the regular guy to use the product? My in-laws would never join forums, download mvp.bin files, etc.

The other thing that I wonder about is placeshifter. If placeshifter works on a dog client machine over wireless internet, why can't they get the MVP to work? I'm not a guru like some of you guys but it seems like the goal should be placeshifter functions on a mvp box. Is that so hard?

In my setup I am simply trying to replace a client pc in my bedroom with a quiet and cheap MVP unit.

[_Demo_]

Originally Posted by taltman

2) Using SageTV as expected did not boot the MVP. See the zip file for the ethereal packet capture for comparisons.

Did you edit the sagetv log? It should do at least 10 timeouts before doing retry count exceeded.

_Demo_

[Fallen Kell]

Originally Posted by Jester

Deadbolt,
I tried that yesterday. It will not work. It hangs waiting for the wired connection. Have you made that work?


How does Sage expect the regular guy to use the product? My in-laws would never join forums, download mvp.bin files, etc.

The other thing that I wonder about is placeshifter. If placeshifter works on a dog client machine over wireless internet, why can't they get the MVP to work? I'm not a guru like some of you guys but it seems like the goal should be placeshifter functions on a mvp box. Is that so hard?

In my setup I am simply trying to replace a client pc in my bedroom with a quiet and cheap MVP unit.

Well, the difference between placeshifter and extender is that the placeshifter will have the software installed on the system, whereas the extender has to do a network boot to get its software and is also much more limited in its own hardware and software instruction set. Idealy, a network booted setup is much easier to maintain, manage and upgrade, but requires good network infrastructure and good client software. Yes, I think these boot images are a little pre-mature still, but they are getting there. Whenever there is a major architecture change as is the case between the older wired mvp's and the newer wireless (and wired) mvp's, there will be issues to work out. One of those issues (and a big one it seems) has to do with the different symptoms of network setup, topology, and quality and how the mvp software reacts to it. And these can really only get documented as time goes on with use of the product on numerous network setups, since many of these things would not be seen in a lab environment.

I personally am of the mind that most of the problems are related to network signal strength. A diskless device is much more prone to network hic-ups then one that has a disk. I know this from experience managing approximately 2000 diskless UNIX workstations over the last 9 years. I am not saying all the problems are due to the network. But what I am saying is that you need to know your own network and make sure it is optimized. The only way to know is to run network tests. Ethereal (well now Wireshark), can only tell you what is occuring on the network. It won't give you information like bandwidth, latency, and speed. These are also vital pieces of information in tracing down problems. NTTCP is a network speed test software. Basically, you load it on two different computers/devices. Basically, one will recieve the information, and the other will transmit the information. If you want to do some more tests on your network to see if different changes may make improvements, I highly recommend using this tool. It can show you the information to tell you if you have problems with your topography, and can help you determine fixes that actually make a performance difference by giving you the information about what your real network performance is. I used it to confirm that my layout was correct (I have 2 servers, 1 HTPC, a workstation, an email/web/word PC, 2 laptops, a network printer, the wireless mvp, a PS2, a Gamecube, and a GameboyDS that all a part of my network, and making sure all of them are connected as best they could be can be hard to do). But I have verified that I have a 1 gigabit connection from my HTPC to the servers connected on my Linksys SRW2016 gigabit switch, and that I also have a 100mbps connection to the workstation that is wire connected to the wireless AP (so basically I know I have a 100mbps connection from the HTPC to the wireless AP, which is basically the best I could ask for without truncating/load-balancing, but that isn't needed since the wireless AP will at best only have devices on it that can only do about 48mbps after you account for the encryption and re-transmittion due to lost/malformed packets.

Again, it isn't something that a regular person would know how to do, and I agree with that. But when dealing with a device like a wireless mvp, you need to know how to do that because you need that kind of performance to do streaming video. Let us do the math a bit here. At the quality I record shows, I am using 3,200,516,096 bytes per hour. 3,200,516,096 bytes/hour ~= 889032 bytes/sec ~= 7112258 bits/sec ~= 6.78 megabits/sec. This is the reason why a 802.11b network could not handle a wireless mvp. This also means you need to have a least a 24mbps connection from your wireless mvp. Now how did I get 24mbps from the 6.78 that I just calculated you ask? Well, first is the encryption overhead, and the second is the fact that a wireless network connection is only half duplex, or in other words, one way at a time. Only one device can speak at once, and it cannot speak and listen at the same time. Now, I do not know entirely the ins/outs of what types of connections are being made, but if they are tcp connections, then there is a requirement that the device that recieves the data, acknowledge that it recieved the data, so it needs to reply back when it gets things. So basically you need double the network speed to allow for sending and recieving, so practically, the 24mbps connection is really only 12mbps for two-way communication. The wireless overhead for encryption and data loss equates to about another 2-3 mbps on average, so that brings the us down to about 9mbps, which will handle the video stream and give us a little headroom for other things that need to be communicated, like the fact that you might have hit the menu button, or other types of functions...

Now again, my above calculations were only based on the wireless mvp as being the only device on your wireless network. If you have other devices that are using it, well, you need to take them into account for what your minimum speed needed on your network. Like for instance, if the SageTV server itself is also wireless, you will need at least double that 24mbps speed, because it will force the network to listen to it when it transmits the data... Other computers/devices might not be as important, or as busy, and might not require you to calculate a faster speed for your network (i.e. something like a PS2 which uses the same TV that the mvp is connected to will most likly not be used at the same time, and thus, will not affect the performance).

Now I have just gotten very highly detailed as to what happens with wireless networks. But the reason I did was to try and show you what kinds of things will complicate them just from different devices being connected to them and how the network itself is setup. That did not even beging to touch issues such as walls, floors, or other objects that will lower the wireless signal strength and add noise to the wireless network which will also create problems (those I spoke about in earlier posts).

To troubleshoot if you have a network problem vs a software problem is fairly easy. Connect both your SageTV server and your wireless mvp by wire directly to your AP/router/dhcp server. If the mvp can't work, well you probably have a software issue with SageTV (this assumes that the mvp obtained an IP address and your SageTV server obtained an IP address). Now if that worked, my next suggestion is keep everything in that same room, disconnect the wired connection from the mvp, keep it in line of sight of the wireless AP, and try it again to see if it still works. You might run into an issue here that might be the network still (you should have 4-5 bars of strength, if you don't, you have a network problem).

I am looking at your data now to see where you are having problems with the direct wired connections. Are you using the last mvp.bin file that Demo posted in this thread?

[Fallen Kell]

Jester, do you have a network capture using Ethereal/Wireshark like taltman posted? I was looking at his data thinking it was you who posted it.

Taltman, I am trying to get this straight, the capture attached to your post is what happens when you try to boot the mvp with sage correct? Basically what I am seeing is that it looks like it is still attempting to download the image for some reason. Demo will have to explain more. I will say it looks like it is taking some time (3 minutes for that capture), and that it appears that 7 times more data was sent to the mvp then contained in the mvp.bin in that capture. I will have to check mine to see how much data is sent when I boot it and I will let you know. I will say that it looks like you only have .5 mbps connection occuring in that capture. I am not sure if that is the peak speed availible, or just all that is being used in that boot process... I will have to check what mine does... give me a minute and I will let you know.

[Fallen Kell]

Taltman, it looks like the server is sending and resending the same exact packet over and over again. From packet number 57 and on, the data has the exact same checksum. Demo, I hope this helps you if you didn't notice that yet.

In compairing it against mine, something happens in the reply from the mvp in and around packet 57-62 in your capture. The reply data from the mvp changes from a 4 byte data packet to a 2 byte data packet. That never occurs on my mvp. The reply seems to be some type of counter from what I can tell of the checksum, and when your reply changes from 4 bytes in length to two bytes in length and stays the same exact reply, well, the server keeps sending the same exact response to that reply. I suspect it is the data that cooresponds to the 4 byte converted value of the 2 byte response that the mvp is sending the server. It may in fact really be an error code since it is a different data length and the SageTV MVP server is not properly handeling that response. I really don't know without knowing more about both the MVP itself, the actual value of that packet, and the make-up of the sagetv server and how it responds to the different responses from the mvp during that part of the boot sequence. Again, Demo should have access to those pieces of information.

[Jester]

That was a very long and thought out reply. However, to cut to the chase I did what you suggested as I discussed above. I ran a wired connection in the same room as the server without issue. I then went wireless in the same room with line of sight and experienced the blinking screen problem. That isn't right no matter how you explain it. I am not an IT guy and only have the patience to view the bars of connection. If it's still in test then they should not be selling it IMHO to us regular folk. I ran placeshifter out on my deck tonight and had fun watching a movie on my laptop.

It's really too bad that wireless MVP is a bust. I do not agree that it is network setup related but I am a true novice. It appears that you may have found something in the code so I'll hang in there a little longer before I ship it all back.