Options for HDTV capture from satellite. Why not component input?

[cejota3]

Hello. I'm a relative newbie to SageTV (have had it about 4 months now), but as the kids would say, it is definitely "The Bomb". My current setup is SD (standard definition) from my DISH/Echostar satellite receiver pumping into my media center computer via a Hauppauge PVR-150. It works like a charm, but I'm itching for a HDTV solution.

I've been reading the forums as much as I can to try to figure out all I can about options with HDTV. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what I have figured out is that HDTV with Sage works great if you use OTA (over the air) HDTV signals. If you want to use a cable or satellite receiver, your options are very limited.

It seems like most of the discussions I've read seem to say that the HDTV "output" from most satellite receivers really cannot be captured by any of the common HDTV capture cards (because they only accept OTA HDTV inputs, right?). In addition, there seems to be a lot of discussion regarding the HDTV output from most cable/satellite receivers being encrypted.

First question, do I have that all correct? And second, if so, why not capture the video directly from the component (Y, Pr, Pb) video ouputs from the satellite receiver? Couldn't a device like this:
http://www.adstech.com/products/API-...sp?pid=API-555
be used for that?

Thanks!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cjwhelan

First question, do I have that all correct?

Basically, yes.

And second, if so, why not capture the video directly from the component (Y, Pr, Pb) video ouputs from the satellite receiver?

Because there's really not much that can do it.

Couldn't a device like this:
http://www.adstech.com/products/API-...sp?pid=API-555
be used for that?

Nope, that card can only record 480i, it can't record HD. Not all component is created equal.

If you want to capture HD component, you need something like this.

Of course then there's the problem of no application support, since that's a professional card, none of the TV apps support it.

[cejota3]

Thanks for the clarifications Stanger. (By the way, what are the details on your 'Stang? I know it is totally off topic, but I'm a car nut also.)

So long story short, there really isn't a good way to use Sage (or it seems any other application) with HD from cable or satellite. I know I'm not the first one to say it, but that sucks!

However, was I on the right track with capturing the video at the component level? Would there still be encryption there?

I'd be willing to help out this cause if I could.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by cjwhelan

Thanks for the clarifications Stanger. (By the way, what are the details on your 'Stang? I know it is totally off topic, but I'm a car nut also.)

So long story short, there really isn't a good way to use Sage (or it seems any other application) with HD from cable or satellite. I know I'm not the first one to say it, but that sucks!

However, was I on the right track with capturing the video at the component level? Would there still be encryption there?

I'd be willing to help out this cause if I could.

The solution exists, its the R5000 modification. Other than that, I dont think you are going to have any luck, because the bandwidth needed on a PCI bus just isnt there to handle the analog component video signals I dont think. I know for sure DVI is out of the question.

And to delve into the OT comment, vette's rule! http://webpages.charter.net/bakerk/vette-done.jpg

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cjwhelan

Thanks for the clarifications Stanger. (By the way, what are the details on your 'Stang? I know it is totally off topic, but I'm a car nut also.)

89 GT, 5.0L, 5 speed, something under 50k IIRC, never seen a winter AFIAK.

So long story short, there really isn't a good way to use Sage (or it seems any other application) with HD from cable or satellite. I know I'm not the first one to say it, but that sucks!

I see Kirby beat me to this answer

However, was I on the right track with capturing the video at the component level?

Not sure how to answer that one, yes capturing component would be nice, but you need very expensive hardware (beyond just the card).

Asside from price, the R5000 mod is probably more ideal than component capture because you get a pristine digital recording where a component one would have some loss.

Would there still be encryption there?

No

I'd be willing to help out this cause if I could.

Unless you are, or know an EE, CprE, and have the resources, desire, and knowledge to build a card from the ground up that provides component input and hardware encoding (ideally to MPEG-2, VC-1, or H.264) there's not a whole lot that can be done. We're basically looking at a lack of cheap hardware.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Unless you are, or know an EE, CprE, and have the resources, desire, and knowledge to build a card from the ground up that provides component input and hardware encoding (ideally to MPEG-2, VC-1, or H.264) there's not a whole lot that can be done. We're basically looking at a lack of cheap hardware.

And in the end, thats what we all want, the untouched source file! The very thing Hollywood hates us having! They are gonna drop a big one when someone breaks those new HD DVD formats.

[DFA]

cjwhelan:

Stanger89 speaks true. Although the component is analog and subject to a noise parameter, it will never be encrypted. As such, I think it the long term solution since digital, while pristine, will have some 'gotcha' associated with it and probably more so later than now.

The apparent hurdle to a HD compenent input card that does hardware encoding such as Stanger mentioned is cost. Hopefully that will not continue long term.

For now, OTA and Firewire from STB are low cost methods for HTPC HD. Mileage varies with CableCo Firewire link since different providers and service areas are marching to their own drum as far as what they are encrypting and not. But at any time with a flick of a "switch" they can put your HD Firewire content in the toilet. Currently, my provider is only encrypting 3 out of about 12 HD channels. Tommorrow, they could encrypt them all; end of game.

That is why I am a proponent of a 760p/1080i component input card but sit and wait like everyone else. Take a number and take a seat!

EDIT: As I see it, for content providers to permit PC's to accept everything in the digital domain, especially HD, the future PC would necessarily be of a closed hardware and software architecture. At that point, I would no longer consider it "my" PC. As it is now, MS tries to manipulate and manage our PC's; a blessing to some, a disgust to others.

DFA

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by DFA

cjwhelan:

Stanger89 speaks true. Although the component is analog and subject to a noise parameter, it will never be encrypted. As such, I think it the long term solution since digital, while pristine, will have some 'gotcha' associated with it and probably more so later than now.

But even that's not guaranteed sadly, just look at MCE and CGMS-A.

The apparent hurdle to a HD compenent input card that does hardware encoding such as Stanger mentioned is cost. Hopefully that will not continue long term.

If someone develops a cheap HD encoder ASIC (ala the VixS or Conextant), I think we'd see a few consumer HD capture cards. The one thing that may stop it though is increasing availability/compatibility of digital capture. Things like CableCard and the DirecTV doodad may "doom" an analog HD capture card.

[cejota3]

Ah, this is becoming much clearer to me, and as I'm sure you all know, our forum(s) here on Sage isn't the only place this is being griped about.

I can totally understand about being able to capture the digital stream directly and the benefits there, but in the end, you just know that will become more and more encrypted, etc. The satellite providers, cable companies, Hollywood, etc. will continually fight that one tooth and nail.

That's basically why I was asking so much about getting it at the component level. Yes, there would be loss, but once you are past the damage you are going to do to your body by age 25, that loss will probably not be perceivable anyway! However, the product to do this I’m pretty sure doesn’t exist yet. It would need to do all of the following: A) capture component video B) do it at HD levels C) compresses it (so you’re not dealing with a completely unmanageable amount of data), and D) integrate well with the media center PCs and software we all nerd out about. And that doesn’t even bring price into the equation, would you pay $500 for a card that did all of that? I might, but it would be a stretch. I know I’m spoiled with sub $100 Hauppauge cards (and similar) that do a great job with the SD stuff.

Here in the Denver metro area, there basically still isn’t OTA HD. A bunch of people on the mountain outside of town that has all of the TV/radio antennas keep on suing to prevent the new HD transmitters from going up. Our only digital cable TV option is Comcast. I’m not a big fan of Comcast and they are literally twice the price of satellite. In short, satellite is the best option. I prefer DISH/echostar (I’m not looking for a debate of them versus DirecTV). Now I just wish there was a way I could get their HD service and use it with my PVR!

As far as helping with the battle, I am an EE (although I haven’t done any real EE stuff in many years), and I do have my own company (telecommunications software and services) so I might have access to some resources beyond the average stuff. However, I’m definitely not volunteering to develop this card I’m wishing for!

And now for the important off-topic stuff, Kirby, nice looking Vette. I’m a big fan of convertibles, and I had an S4 the exact same color. You never loose it in a parking lot! Stanger89, sounds like some sweet Detroit iron. A lot of those rice burners are cool, but an American V8 under the hood is just going about it the brute force way!

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by cjwhelan

And now for the important off-topic stuff, Kirby, nice looking Vette. I’m a big fan of convertibles, and I had an S4 the exact same color. You never loose it in a parking lot! Stanger89, sounds like some sweet Detroit iron. A lot of those rice burners are cool, but an American V8 under the hood is just going about it the brute force way!

Thanks! Nothing like the sound of 500+ HP from a 427 breathing under that very un-conspicuous small block hood! Of course the .411 rear end helps too, but gas mileage, YIKES!!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cjwhelan

Ah, this is becoming much clearer to me, and as I'm sure you all know, our forum(s) here on Sage isn't the only place this is being griped about.

Yeah, you almost got clubed by a "search-by-4" knee-nerk post since I'm used to seeing this question twice a day on AVS Forum

In short, satellite is the best option. I prefer DISH/echostar (I’m not looking for a debate of them versus DirecTV). Now I just wish there was a way I could get their HD service and use it with my PVR!

http://www.nextcomwireless.com/R5000/sagetv.htm

As far as helping with the battle, I am an EE (although I haven’t done any real EE stuff in many years),

I know the feeling

and I do have my own company (telecommunications software and services) so I might have access to some resources beyond the average stuff. However, I’m definitely not volunteering to develop this card I’m wishing for!

I wouldn't either.

And now for the important off-topic stuff, Kirby, nice looking Vette. I’m a big fan of convertibles, and I had an S4 the exact same color. You never loose it in a parking lot! Stanger89, sounds like some sweet Detroit iron. A lot of those rice burners are cool, but an American V8 under the hood is just going about it the brute force way!

I'm still wishing I'd have picked up that '70 Boss 429 when I had the chance. It was cheap, and surely needed a great deal of work (think the replacement Elenor from the Cage version of Gone in 60). But man it would have been great to offset all the rice burners when I was in college

[DFA]

Ofcourse we have DRM (Digital Rights Management). The idea of ARM (Analog Rights Management) has surely crossed the minds of the creators of this mess to short circuit those pesky non-conformists that think they will get around this with a high quality analog solution.

From there we can move on to RRM (Reading Rights Management), SRM (Speaking/Singing Rights Management), BRM (Breathing Rights Management), FRM, etc.

DFA

[dblaine2]

Originally Posted by DFA

Ofcourse we have DRM (Digital Rights Management). The idea of ARM (Analog Rights Management) has surely crossed the minds of the creators of this mess to short circuit those pesky non-conformists that think they will get around this with a high quality analog solution.

From there we can move on to RRM (Reading Rights Management), SRM (Speaking/Singing Rights Management), BRM (Breathing Rights Management), FRM, etc.

DFA

Just what we need more management

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by DFA

SRM (Speaking/Singing Rights Management

Given some of the contestents on American Idol, this one might not be such a bad idea!

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by DFA

SRM (Speaking/Singing Rights Management

Not to be confused with the Spanking Rights Management.

Gerry

[Kirby]

Shall we tackle "FRM" now?

[DFA]

Yea. I left FRM to speculation. However, if you've been married for enough years, you're probably already familiar with FRM.

DFA

[Kirby]

That still could be taken a few different ways!

[dagar]

Yeah I think the FMR is too far though

[Stealth1971]

I believe alot of the content "capture" scenarios (excluding analog capture) are going to become available with the advent of MS Vista. All of the content distributors have "warm and fuzzies" with the secure pipeline builtin into Vista - aka - everything is locked down from device capturing the digital source to the inside of the TV via HDMI. Basically unauthorized software couldnt hijack the content in the pipeline.

I just had an article posted about this over at DVRPlayground.com.

http://www.dvrplayground.com/article/12281