Are you happy with Sage dependability?

[jominor]

Originally Posted by elaw

Well duh! Only problem is I'm not doing what you're saying. Get yourself a blank 80C51 chip (pretty representative of what's in a TV set), hook it up and watch it do... nothing! Microcontrollers require code just like a PC does. And these microcontrollers are in things you use every day - TV's, microwaves, cars, VCR's. Ever seen one of those crash without provocation (no fair counting power spikes!)?


That's nice... I've been doing it professionally since 1988. As a hobby since the late '70's. Right now I'm programming the control system for a multimillion-dollar deep space surveillance radar system, using PC's (XP machines in fact) and PLC's. And if it crashed 1/100 as often as your average Windows app, my employer would probably get sued.

Now I'm not trying to say it's sensible to hold Sage to the same standard. But I think just stating "all software has bugs" and leaving it at that is a cop-out.

Well, if we are all willing to pay $20k each for Sage, they could probably match your system for reliability! And again testing opcode is not my forte, what I do understand is that you can test that kind of stuff on simulators before final etching. And again, such things are very specialized.

Also, I suspect that your employer had SLAs that they signed. I've worked on systems that had fairly high levels of uptime in the requirements and it was different software and hardware than PCs.

Perhaps Sage should create a VMS version?

[jominor]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. For the price Sage is very reliable. I reboot maybe once a month and everything works like clockwork. Could Sage be made 99.9999% reliable on all configs out there? Sure, it would just cost $100,000 a license or so.

I've spent over 20 years in software development and know that you can never get 100% reliability. But given enough money and time you can get close .....

Exactly. I reboot Sage about once every two months to install WindowsXP updates and it runs 24/7. And it costs less than $100!!

[jptaz]

I am a software developer too and the problem is not developers it is management demmanding features before they are ready to ship and wihtout adequate testing or requirement constraints. Sure there are bad developers, but even with good developers management says it is time to release a product they don't seem to care if it is broken.

Also as I spend half my time dealing with customers who have hacked systems, faulty hardware, and incompetent IT staff. Are we supposed to test our software with a borken switch or router? Hell I admit that for a while I blamed Sage for the fact that I could not reliably download the OTA Channel line up list. I replaced my router and it worked every after that. Sure it would be nice if Sage worked better in less than perfect network conditions, but why should they spend time when I clearly had bad hardware.

People who compare Main Frame and VMS systems to windows based systems are neglecting one of the key differences between those systems...extremely expensive and reliable hardware. Everytime and issue happens with one of these systems a tech comes out and drops in a new board or part, if the same care and quality was used on windows based systems there would not be as many problems.

John

[lotusvball]

Originally Posted by jominor

Then I eagerly await reading how you've acheived software perfection.

you know I never said there was such a thing, I just like how you assume that I wasn't. Never assume anything. BTW their is no such thing as perfection, software or hardware, but stability can be achieved with enough time and reduced features.

[jptaz]

Originally Posted by lotusvball

you know I never said there was such a thing, I just like how you assume that I wasn't. Never assume anything. BTW their is no such thing as perfection, software or hardware, but stability can be achieved with enough time and reduced features.

A Great example of this is the space shuttle. One of the most reliable software and hardware combinations because of simplicity and time.

[src666]

Originally Posted by jptaz

A Great example of this is the space shuttle. One of the most reliable software and hardware combinations because of simplicity and time.

And a completely closed system. The shuttle pilots don't bring their own peripherals and software to the game, and you don't go down to BoosterUSA to buy a new solid rocket control system.

This is a false comparison. Start comparing apples to apples.

[mike_15]

Look.. I have seen variations of the elsewhere. I definately applies here.


It always will come down to this.

There are 3 things we want.
LOW PRICE
GREAT FEATURES
HIGH STABILITY

You can have 2 at a time!!

(This post tells you about the price part, I wonder where the other two pieces fall in each price point.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16483 )

[jptaz]

Originally Posted by src666

And a completely closed system. The shuttle pilots don't bring their own peripherals and software to the game, and you don't go down to BoosterUSA to buy a new solid rocket control system.

This is a false comparison. Start comparing apples to apples.

Fine then throw out the comparision of a windows system to VMS or other expensive proprietary systems that are much the same way....last time I checked there was only one source for parts for those systems too or such a limited choice that either it works perfectly or you are out of business. If you want to go down the linux road then SageTV has an option.

Given trhe following I know a windows system can be stable...mine has been:
1. Good quality welll maintained hardware....doesn't matter if you have the best hardware if all the fans get clogged with dust and are kept in a hot room. Check event logs at least once a week...check the SMART status of hard drives.

2. Only used stable drivers and software...don't upgrade anything unless there is a fix for a problem that you having or it is worth the risk of instability to test the new feature out. I have windows updates downloaded but not installed. I will chose when any updates applied and then I am not surprised if the system dies because of an update. Defrag all drives on reguarlly basis...my drives are all defragged in the middle of the night by Raxco Perfect Disk every day...Backup SageTV and other important settings on a daily basis.

3. Only use the system for the one purpose it was intended for. I never surf the web on my SageTV Server or install the latest utility a buddy said is cool it is only for SageTV.

My SageTV server has not had any problems since support fixed the HD tuner issues and it runs 24 x 7. Any reboots are by choice to test a new beta and have not been done for stability reasons since the HD Tuner issues a while ago.

Just my experience,
John

[jptaz]

Originally Posted by mike_15

Look.. I have seen variations of the elsewhere. I definately applies here.


It always will come down to this.

There are 3 things we want.
LOW PRICE
GREAT FEATURES
HIGH STABILITY

You can have 2 at a time!!

(This post tells you about the price part, I wonder where the other two pieces fall in each price point.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16483 )

Exactly...I have spent over $3000 on my server hardware only and I have a stable and reliable system that can sustain one drive failing without any probelms to the system and when I have time I can replace the faile drive and use it as a new hot spare. This is still pretty cheap and I still keep my features to a min...I only use the Default STV and I have no special pluggins.

John

[blade]

Originally Posted by jptaz

Exactly...I have spent over $3000 on my server hardware only and I have a stable and reliable system that can sustain one drive failing without any probelms to the system and when I have time I can replace the faile drive and use it as a new hot spare. This is still pretty cheap and I still keep my features to a min...I only use the Default STV and I have no special pluggins.

John

I don't want newbies reading this thread and thinking they need to spend that kind of money to get a stable Sage server. So I'd like to mention that I have around $680 in my server and it's 100% stable. Of course I used mostly old hardware lying around from previous systems, but on the plus side all of it had been used for years and I knew it was stable before putting it into service. It's been in use now for 1 year and 3 months and has never been defraged and I have no problems.

If you expect to have a stable system you need quality hardware; however, a Sage server can be run on a very low power older system (depending on what you expect the server to do). So if anyone has some old good quality hardware they can throw together a dependable Sage server for a meager price.

[Stuey02]

I was a Tivo subscriber for a couple of years and moved to Sage and have to say that it was the best thing that I did. I have been through a couple of versions of Sage and have been very happy, most of the issues that I have had have been with XP and not the Sage software. Also, as for a company providing software that does not work 90+ % of the time, my Tivo would lock up at least twice a week and trying to get support from them always sucked (unless you had three hours of your life to spend on hold). I would say to keep with it for Sage, the issues always seem to be worked out for the most part.

Tivo
SageTV

[jptaz]

Originally Posted by blade

I don't want newbies reading this thread and thinking they need to spend that kind of money to get a stable Sage server. So I'd like to mention that I have around $680 in my server and it's 100% stable. Of course I used mostly old hardware lying around from previous systems, but on the plus side all of it had been used for years and I knew it was stable before putting it into service. It's been in use now for 1 year and 3 months and has never been defraged and I have no problems.

If you expect to have a stable system you need quality hardware; however, a Sage server can be run on a very low power older system (depending on what you expect the server to do). So if anyone has some old good quality hardware they can throw together a dependable Sage server for a meager price.

I agree with this 100%...the bulk of the cost of my server was my recent upgrade to 1.3 TB RAID 5 Array. I was very happy with a lowly system for a while, actually 3 years, but then lost recordings because a drive died...I decided it was worth the price for data security of RAID 5...I mean not everyone had 8 tuners and has close to 1 TB of archived recordings.

John

[stevech]

I spent about $175 to get Sage running, using cheap motherboard, AMD2400, etc...

Hauppauge was most of the cost.
Disks are cheap and most of us don't need terabytes.
250B is more than adequate - geesh, how *much* TV can one watch, anyway. This is a cache, not an archive! For the latter, we have DVDs.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by mike_15

Look.. I have seen variations of the elsewhere. I definately applies here.


It always will come down to this.

There are 3 things we want.
LOW PRICE
GREAT FEATURES
HIGH STABILITY

You can have 2 at a time!!

(This post tells you about the price part, I wonder where the other two pieces fall in each price point.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16483 )

Well, by that criteria, I would say that Sage has hit it. I run my system 24/7 and reboot about every other month. It is cheap and I think has great features..

[jominor]

Originally Posted by stevech

I spent about $175 to get Sage running, using cheap motherboard, AMD2400, etc...

Hauppauge was most of the cost.
Disks are cheap and most of us don't need terabytes.
250B is more than adequate - geesh, how *much* TV can one watch, anyway. This is a cache, not an archive! For the latter, we have DVDs.

Shrug. I have over 500 movies Divx'd to harddrives. Also, I tend to keep shows for a long time. I don't want to hunt down a DVD. I just want to find it in the library and hit play. Call me lazy...

[stevech]

and wealthy!

[src666]

My point was that several people kept harping on how stable and bug-free certain closed systems (TVs, Shuttle, etc.) are, and use that as a yardstick for Sage's performance. That just isn't valid on any level.

Yes, Sage could produce a system with 5 9's of stability. But you would be buying your entire system from Sage, and you wouldn't be allowed to upgrade, modify or tweak the system. That's not their market, so you have to deal with the fact that Sage probably hasn't tested your exact configuration, and even if they have tried all the same parts, they probably didn't have the exact same driver versions, patch levels, and other non-Sage software installed that you do. So there are lots of ways for the system to get screwed up that Sage has absolutely no control over.

You can brag all you want about how stable _your_ system is, but that isn't an indicator of how any other person's experience will play out. Likewise, there are tons of people who are happy with some of the buggiest software and hardware, because it works for _them_, while everyone else is having trouble.

So reliability, while great for many/most people, just isn't there for _every_ person. And that's just a fact of life that isn't going to be changing.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by stevech

and wealthy!

Not wealthy. Each driver was purchased with a slew of rebates to keep the price in check!

[jominor]

Originally Posted by src666

My point was that several people kept harping on how stable and bug-free certain closed systems (TVs, Shuttle, etc.) are, and use that as a yardstick for Sage's performance. That just isn't valid on any level.

Yes, Sage could produce a system with 5 9's of stability. But you would be buying your entire system from Sage, and you wouldn't be allowed to upgrade, modify or tweak the system. That's not their market, so you have to deal with the fact that Sage probably hasn't tested your exact configuration, and even if they have tried all the same parts, they probably didn't have the exact same driver versions, patch levels, and other non-Sage software installed that you do. So there are lots of ways for the system to get screwed up that Sage has absolutely no control over.

You can brag all you want about how stable _your_ system is, but that isn't an indicator of how any other person's experience will play out. Likewise, there are tons of people who are happy with some of the buggiest software and hardware, because it works for _them_, while everyone else is having trouble.

So reliability, while great for many/most people, just isn't there for _every_ person. And that's just a fact of life that isn't going to be changing.

I agree. Which is why it isn't valid to condemn Sage for NOT being stable if one is unwilling to praise it FOR being stable.

Regardless, it must clearly work well for the overwhelming majority of people or few of us would be here.

[Polypro]

I am extremely happy with Sage dependability. I run 24/7 with an automatic re-boot every morning at 4AM (Just because). I'm always running the latest beta with my choice of plug-ins. I run other software on it, but it's all entertainment or Performance based (Juice RSS, Speedfan, etc...) After almost a year since my first build, I've gotten to know what works and plays well together. I also have a DirecTiVo downstairs...it's never gone down in 3 years, but the PQ is worse to my eyes. I think a lot of problems are that people hear about Sage and look at their desktop in the corner. Who knows what's on it, or what shape it's in when they install Sage? There really is sort of an art to HTPC's. Some day it'll all "just work...all the time", but for now, Sage is as close as I've seen (Tried them all).

P