PureVideo and AC3Filter

[scbundy]

I'm going to start using Sage as my DVD player. My question is in regards to audio. I've heard that the PureVideo will only decode DD for the Gold and Platinum versions and DTS for Platinum. And that's for MCE, not Sage, and I don't have either the Gold or Platinum version.

I use PureVideo for my video decoder and it works great (I have a Geforce 6200). So for my audio, since my SBLive 5.1 X-Gamer has no SPDIF passthru, I was thinking of using AC3Filter 1.02a, which has both AC3 and DTS decoding and I can connect my soundcard to my receiver via tha analog connections. Will it be a problem if I use PureVideo to do video and AC3Filter for audio? I've heard these two codecs don't play well together.

Second question, I notice that people say to select Nvidia Video Decoder, not Post Processor. However, when I do that the little nvidia icon does not appear in my toolbar. When I pick Post Processor, it does. Can someone clarify what's happening there? Also, the sage.properties file I noticed has a line for the video decoder, and one for post processor. The one for post processor was blank b/c there's nowhere to select it within Sage. So I typed in Nvidia Post Processor and left the video decoder to Nvidia Video Decoder. The icon did appear in my toolbar at that point. However, when I tried to select Decoder Properties, nothing happened. Confusion is rampant!

[ben_95sl1]

The behaviour you see with the icon is because the nvidia decoder is not setup as the default decoder.....using radlight filter manager, you can fix that, then set sagetv to use default. I had the exact same problem a month ago.

I would suggest you not even bother using the analog connections and either purchase a cheap spdif audio card (optical on chaintech av710) or, if available, use the spdif that is built into most motherboards from the last few years. If it is just for DVD and stereo PCM, SPDIF is highly recommended. There are a number of issues with connecting with analog depending on your receiver, including bass management, and from what I know, the live cards are not spectacular analog cards. Ac3 filter will also pass spdif for free, so don't worry about using any other audio decoder. I've only recently discovered how useful it is.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by scbundy

Will it be a problem if I use PureVideo to do video and AC3Filter for audio? I've heard these two codecs don't play well together.

I am running the AC3 decoder in conjunction with the nVidia video decoder. It works fine with my ac'97 DAC chip. Didn't have luck with a SBLive though. What you may need to do is get into the AC3 properties and get to the option that says Prefer AC3 over other decoders. That way the nVidia audio decoders will be turned off. I had a problem with Sage using one over the other for different content. The volumes were drastically different until I set it to use AC3 filter all the time.

Originally Posted by scbundy

Second question, I notice that people say to select Nvidia Video Decoder, not Post Processor. However, when I do that the little nvidia icon does not appear in my toolbar. When I pick Post Processor, it does. Can someone clarify what's happening there?

Your 6200 may not support the full PureVideo feature set via its onboard hardware. Therefore you are limited to using the post processor. I.e. the post processor is a software decoder and the regular decoder is for hardware acceleration, which you may not have.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo_support.html

[ben_95sl1]

actually, I first thought the same about the post processor when I initially had the problem, but I'm using the nvidia decoder with hw accel enabled on an ATI 8500. Of course, its just the regular hw accel (DXVA), not anything fancy like purevideo.

[scbundy]

Maybe that's why the Post Processor actually looked better than the Nvidia Video Decoder. I'll switch back. Don't get me started on griping about nvidia. Oh yes, the Geforce 6 series cards support PureVideo, blah blah blah. They only mention the fact that each card supports only a subset of the features they boast about in the small print on their website. Then they charge you for the software. What a rip, making you pay extra to enable the features on your card you own. Bunch of jerks.

Back to audio. I realize that if I get the software decoding to work there may be a quality hit I'll take. Although to what degree will have to be determined by a good old fashioned listen test. Time to dig out Fellowship of the Ring I think Unfortunately I have the requirement of spending $0 for the remainder of this configuration. I was forced to buy a new video card when the last one literally burnt out, but I still have a normal DVD player I can use for DVD's so adding a DVD into Sage isn't essential. I'll give the software decode and analog audio a listen tonight. See how it sounds, if it's good. I'll use it. If it's not, I'll just go back to the DVD player until a new sound card falls from the sky and lands in my HTPC

Thanks guys.

[Humanzee]

Depending on your display, using the HTPC as a DVD player can give you superior results than a very expensive dedicated DVD player. It’s all about de-interlacing. Most older DVD players were never designed to play nice with today’s high definition sets. At 480i a DVD will look nice on an old DVD player hooked to a SD TV set. But that same DVD player hooked to an HD set can look awful. The HDTV set can bring out all of the limitations of the DVD player and depending on your display you may even see the interlaced frames showing up when there is lots of motion on the screen. Progressive Scan DVD players make things much nicer but you still have to rely on either the DVD player or TV’s hardware to do the de-interlacing and scaling. As you may imagine, hardware manufacturers do not always take the high road when selecting the capabilities and quality of their chips when building affordable devices.

The advantage of using your HTPC as a DVD player is that you are no longer limited to the hardware that was built into your DVD player. You now have the option to process the data from the DVD with software using the power of your CPU or Graphics card. PureVideo is a great thing even though nVidia can be frustrating. It’s pixel adaptive de-interlacing is as close as you can get to studio quality de-interlacing with out spending tens of thousands of dollars on hardware. It’s really quite impressive for the money.

If you have a standard TV it’s a bit of a mute point anyway. Just stick with your old DVD player for DVD’s.

Unfortunately, with your budget you have limited options. I got burned with PureVideo because I elected to buy the platinum version of the decoder. I didn’t realize that it doesn’t send analog surround audio outside of Windows Media Player. As I will not be getting an external audio amplifier for some time, I didn’t have the option for digital pass through, so I though I had better get the platinum version. So now I sit on an extra $30 of software that I can’t fully utilize. AC3 works for me and “should” work for you with the post processor. But I have never run it that way.

FWIW, I have noticed the computer horsepower and graphics capability really starts to become critical as you get into HDTV recording and playback. I think I’m going to need to upgrade soon myself.

Good luck.

[scbundy]

My TV is a 65 inch SDTV (came with the house when we bought it b/c they couldn't move it out ). So no widescreen, no high def, no progressive scan and at 65 inches MY GOD does the interlacing stand out. Like, badly. 5 years ago, I loved the TV, but compared to those 1080p models I see now, well let's just say I cry myself to sleep at night.

On the bright side I don't need to worry about de-interlacing or DVI or anything, I just connect the component cables, set the video card to force TV out, install all the codecs I need and done.

My reasoning for doing away with the old DVD player isn't quality, with a big screen SDTV I won't see it get any better. It's just about removing another item plugged into my TV. Eventually I'd like to use Sage for Live TV as well, currently it's just for playback of recorded TV shows and videos (like a supped up and simplified VCR). But I'll be needing a second tuner card if I want to do that. At that point I'll be using Sage for everything and won't need to keep switching TV input modes everytime I want to do something different. It's just about simplfying the home theater setup, that's all.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by ben_95sl1

actually, I first thought the same about the post processor when I initially had the problem, but I'm using the nvidia decoder with hw accel enabled on an ATI 8500. Of course, its just the regular hw accel (DXVA), not anything fancy like purevideo.

I don't think that the nVidia decoder is dependant on haveing nVidia hardware, it just doesn't work as efficiently with out a capable nvidia card. The nVidia decoder has been around for a long time. It used to be called the nVidia DVD decoder and has evolved into PureVideo. It is tweaked to enable different features based on the hardware acceleration available on the purevideo capable nvidia cards.

I think that is what I read, but I don't know for sure about any of this. I trust my memory less and less each day. Like scbundy observed, you have to dig deep to get to the meat with nVidia. There release notes on the latest forceware drivers are like 174 pages long or something.

[scbundy]

I actually regret buying the 6200. Should have just bought a 5200 with Component out (if they exist), would have cost me half the price and I could probably afford that sound card I wish I had now. But I thought that the 6200 would be vastly superior with it's so called PureVideo support. But I took it home, hooked it up, installed PureVideo and it looked exactly the same as my cheapass 5200 did. *sigh*

[ripple]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

What you may need to do is get into the AC3 properties and get to the option that says Prefer AC3 over other decoders. That way the nVidia audio decoders will be turned off. I had a problem with Sage using one over the other for different content. The volumes were drastically different until I set it to use AC3 filter all the time.

Can you elaborate on how to do this? I've had a longstanding issue with differences in volumes and would like to try this to see if it is related.

Thanks,
Kevin

[scbundy]

Just go into the AC3Filter configuration that you can find in the Windows Start Menu. There's an option there to set AC3Filter as the prefered codec. Do that. Then in Sage set AC3Filter for the audio codec for Videos and for DVD's. That way it will only use this one codec for everything and you won't get volume issues, which was a result of Sage switching between 2 codecs that had different volume levels..

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by scbundy

My TV is a 65 inch SDTV (came with the house when we bought it b/c they couldn't move it out ).

We had an old 50" rear projection SD set in our basement at my parents house, when it finally quit working I actually dissassembled it to get it upstairs and into the trash. It weighed probably 300 lbs otherwise.

Originally Posted by scbundy

So no widescreen, no high def, no progressive scan and at 65 inches MY GOD does the interlacing stand out. Like, badly. 5 years ago, I loved the TV, but compared to those 1080p models I see now, well let's just say I cry myself to sleep at night.

Thats odd, are you giving it a progressive signal through your Component cables? It might be having a problem re-interlacing a progressive signal from your HTPC. You "should" only see interlacing lines on a progressive capable display if the signal isn't de-interlaced first. Otherwise you could have some sort of sync problem between your HTPC and the bigscreen. It might appear as a scan line going up and down the screen. Like you are shooting a video of a tv sceen. Sometimes, displays will run at 60hz or 59hz. Make sure you match your video card settings to your display. For me it was a crap shoot, I have an older geforce card with svideo output that I could never get to work with my SD set.

If you get that worked out, DVD's will look better through a properly decoded signal from an HTPC, but your benefit is limited by your TV. Garbage in = Garbage out. "Perfection in" only look marginally better than "garbage in" 480i

Originally Posted by scbundy

On the bright side I don't need to worry about de-interlacing or DVI or anything, I just connect the component cables, set the video card to force TV out, install all the codecs I need and done.

My reasoning for doing away with the old DVD player isn't quality, with a big screen SDTV I won't see it get any better. It's just about removing another item plugged into my TV. Eventually I'd like to use Sage for Live TV as well, currently it's just for playback of recorded TV shows and videos (like a supped up and simplified VCR). But I'll be needing a second tuner card if I want to do that. At that point I'll be using Sage for everything and won't need to keep switching TV input modes everytime I want to do something different. It's just about simplfying the home theater setup, that's all.

You should probably think about getting another 2 tuners instead of one. With two tuners I had a resonable number of recording conflicts, with 3 I seldom have any issues other than with HD recordings. There is a reason they call it "prime time." Check out the pvr500 it has two ntsc tuners in one card.

FWIW, the more I use SageTV the less I watch live TV. Its just so much more efficient to watch programs commercial free. I also notice that I watch less hours in total a week, and have discovered that things I used to watch to kill time, are really not worth any of my time at all. Regardless, having 2 tuners is better than one, but three is the way to go if you still want to watch the occational live program.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by ripple

Can you elaborate on how to do this? I've had a longstanding issue with differences in volumes and would like to try this to see if it is related.

Thanks,
Kevin

It took me a while to figure this one out too. There is a way to get at it through Windows Media Player, but I never found it. What I did is found a piece of software called the "Radlight Filter Manager". In there find the section on DirectShow filters. AC3 should be in the list, select it and hit properties.

Inside the properties there are a number of options, on the furthest right tab are the options for decoder preference. There is also a deal in there somewhere to normalize audio on the fly. I think there is a FAQ up on sourceforge or elsewhere on the net regarding the AC3 decoder and all its options.

Of course in Sage you will want to set AC3 as default audio renderer for videos and DVD's. At least I did it that way anyway. This is all so confusing to get working and it seems to be different for everyone. Good luck.

[scbundy]

I just checked the "Force TV Out" in the nvidia driver properties. I didn't see any option for interlaced or progressive scan. I just assumed Svideo and Composite were both interlaced and DVI is progressive by default. I didn't realize I could change it.

Note that my big 65 inch TV is not progressive scan. It is 480i, built just before the EDTV and HDTV's hit the market.

It isn't the HTPC, normal analog cable and digital cable also have very noticable "jaggies" when there is motion. The damn thing is just too big for that resolution.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by scbundy

Just go into the AC3Filter configuration that you can find in the Windows Start Menu. There's an option there to set AC3Filter as the prefered codec. Do that. Then in Sage set AC3Filter for the audio codec for Videos and for DVD's. That way it will only use this one codec for everything and you won't get volume issues, which was a result of Sage switching between 2 codecs that had different volume levels..

This works if you have already installed the AC3 decoder. I don't think it gets installed as an application into the programs menu with the SageTV install by default.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by scbundy

I just checked the "Force TV Out" in the nvidia driver properties. I didn't see any option for interlaced or progressive scan. I just assumed Svideo and Composite were both interlaced and DVI is progressive by default. I didn't realize I could change it.

I could be wrong, but I think that componenet cables, (talking about the Red Green and Blue ones) can do 480i, 480p, 720i, 720p and 1080i. Forcing "TV out" may or may not set it to 480i. It might be 480p. I think SVideo is always 480i. I know that DVI can be forced to do 1080i on my 6600GT. I think it is one of those hidden things in the registry like coolbits.

Originally Posted by scbundy

Note that my big 65 inch TV is not progressive scan. It is 480i, built just before the EDTV and HDTV's hit the market.

It isn't the HTPC, normal analog cable and digital cable also have very noticable "jaggies" when there is motion. The damn thing is just too big for that resolution.

Well that sounds like the problem then. Serves you right for buying a house where the previous owner was not an early technology adopter. You should have written HDTV into the purchase and sale agreement. But then your questions would be about HDTV tuning.

[scbundy]

Yup, you got me there

[scbundy]

Damn, last night I was going to download the latest version of AC3Filter (1.02a), etc. But it was the only time in the last 12 months that my internet went out. Wow. The Sage Gods must be mad at me. I couldn't get DD decoding working with the version of AC3Filter Sage ships with. I think it's because it turns out I have the wrong sound card drivers installed. It thinks I'm using an SBLive Value, instead of SBLive 5.1. Of course to install the correct drivers, I need the internet. Damn.

So tonight, hopefully I can get back online and play with this some more. If my SBLive won't cooperate, I think I might just put in the SB X-Fi I got inside my gaming PC since that has all sorts of decoding abilities and optical pass thru's. The only game I'm playing atm is Galactic Civ2 which doesn't have fancy sounds. Although Oblivion is coming out next week......

[ripple]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

Of course in Sage you will want to set AC3 as default audio renderer for videos and DVD's. At least I did it that way anyway. This is all so confusing to get working and it seems to be different for everyone. Good luck.

Great info! Now, I just have a couple more ignorant questions since decoders and filter graphs tend to make my head hurt:

1) I thought that the decoders in my system were put there by the DVD player software, not by Sage...is that true?

2) Do I add the sourceforge AC3Filter myself or would it already be put on my system from some other software (Sage or otherwise)?

Thanks,
Kevin

[scbundy]

DVD player software has it's own decoders, but Sage ships with some of it's own. Although Sage's default decoder can't do divx or xvid and I'm unsure to whether it can even do wmv. Somebody will have to clarify that.

Generally people use the decoders from WinDVD or Nvidia although neither are free, simply b/c they are better quality. Sage does ship with ffdshow (I believe), and it's pretty good quality although you have to configure it and I wouldn't know how to begin that.

But for divx and xvid you'll need to download the codecs for them on the net, both are free.

Sage ships with the 0.70b version of AC3Filter, but it's very difficult to get to the configuration for it b/c it's technically not installed, they just include the decoder for it, not install it. I installed AC3Filter 1.02a off the net (it's free) b/c that version includes DTS decoding. I've yet to test the quality of software decoding and analog transmission to my receiver vs the hardware decoding and digital transmission of an optical passthru. It's obvious which one is better, but whether I can hear the difference remains to be seen.

Note that the sourceforge version of AC3Filter is 0.70b. 1.02a is alpha so not on sourceforge. It can be found here:
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/AC3_Filter.htm

Keep in mind, it is alpha.