How will SageTV survive?

[Hector]

re: the D* release.

Yea this was from CES but the word I see here is 'transfer' to my PC not 'record on'. Transfering 10-30 gig files to manage them on sage isn't very attractive as even the crappy NDS box plays video fine. But honestly I've not been paying much attention lately, has there been further info past a Tivo2Go type solution?



And yea I did miss the announcement that MediaReady was cablecard certified. That is impressive to be sure but honestly I don't see Cablecard 2.0 getting a lot of traction any time soon because contrary to what some have said here the cableco's are fighting cablecard regulations not embracing them. Still ultimately they should be forced to comply but they're not going to like it. We'll see, at least the govt is doing something useful for a change.

So how long will it be before I can record D*'s HD Sunday Ticket on my Sage box?

peace . . .

Originally Posted by stanger89

[/URL]

http://www.vwbinc.com/press/112905pr.html



It will be available with Vista, both CableCard and direct DirecTV.
http://ir.ati.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=10...664&highlight=
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...DIRECTVPR.mspx

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Hector

re: the D* release.

Yea this was from CES but the word I see here is 'transfer' to my PC not 'record on'. Transfering 10-30 gig files to manage them on sage isn't very attractive as even the crappy NDS box plays video fine. But honestly I've not been paying much attention lately, has there been further info past a Tivo2Go type solution?

That's part of it, but you must have missed this part:

DIRECTV customers will be able to use a Windows Media Center-based PC as a DIRECTV receiver to create an all-in-one digital entertainment environment, supporting both national and local standard-definition and high-definition services.

[Hector]

Yes I did. I wonder if this is a lockdown via MCE/Vista or just with Vista (allowing us to use Sage et al).

Thanks for bringing this to light. I've really been out touch lately (we released two components this month) and apparently I didn't give the D*/Microsoft anywhere near the credit it seems to deserve.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's part of it, but you must have missed this part:

[robertmcox]

This subject sickens me...

...I know at least some of us don't want to steal content. If I like a movie or a song, I will buy it! I have no problem paying for "content" and I certainly don't want to steal anything. I pay for the software I use even though I am savvy enough to crack or keygen it if I really want to. Even movies I legitimately record off HBO using my existing fair use rights I will purchase at the store if I like. I'm an honest individual as I think/hope most are.

But it really pisses me off that someone else (big business or "Holly Wood") is attempting to control my rights and define for me what "fair use" means. This is like the philosophy of the movie "Minority Report" where individuals are convicted of crimes they haven't even committed yet!

WTF!?!?!? Are they next going to ban paper books because they can be photocopied when there are suitable digital DRM protected alternative ways to get the "content"? Sounds like NWO to me...

[dbfresh23]

DOH... And here I thought this silly thread had finally died!

[lwhardin]

I have been using SAGETV for over one year and I have to say that I am less than pleased. It is one of the least stable pieces of software that I use. The new 4 version has a terrible user interface.

Now, after updating my Hauppauge 250 drivers for the three cards that I have in the computer. it only shows one card. I have had to reinstall SageTV about 20 times in the past year. I have also had to reinstall windows to make sure that the problems weren't windows related.

Additionally, Sage's encoding of the video files database makes it hard to 'fix' the Sage Recordings when things have gone wrong. For example, if you have to reinstall and have the original Sage Files. You can end up with new recordings that aren't from the original installation and the only way to merge them is to put the new or old ones in the library, which removes the description information.

Sage is probably going to try to charge for upgrades or program guides.

Finally, I have COX cable and their PVR works without a problem. This is in stark contrast to SAGETV.

[PGPfan]

lwhardin, I suspect that you are certainly doing something wrong with either your software, or equipment choices to experience this level of trouble. There are MANY of us, myself included that have run Sage for the past 3 years with great stability. There are several things I'd do differently if I were you:

1) Start posting questions on this forum! (you only have 3 post, yet complain about having trouble for the past year?)
2) Use drive imaging software. (that will prevent you from having to 're-install windows the 20 times or more' that you've done previously)
3) Let Sage make the determination of if/when they will charge for upgrades.

Start by describing your entire Sage system - all hardware, driver versions, other software, and how it's used (do you use it as just a Sage machine, or do you use it as your PC also?).

You'll be surprised how helpful the forum can be, and that we can probably make your Sage experience just as stable as the Cox box, just with many, many, many more features.

-PGPfan

[aperry]

Originally Posted by lwhardin

Finally, I have COX cable and their PVR works without a problem. This is in stark contrast to SAGETV.

I'm just curious if you have taken the time to see if the problems you are having are with your system, rather than just blaming Sage. Yes, some people are having problems, but all-in-all it is pretty stable. And, if you post with questions, the folks here are generally glad to help. Probably not best to start your posts slamming Sage, just say you are having problems and describe what's going on...

That being said, the Cox PVR is garbage. There were several problems I saw.

1. They charge $4.95 a month for the PVR service (not to mention the $4.95 - $9.95 a month for the box). $60 a year. Sage costs me exactly $0 a year.

2. No 30-second skip feature (at least it was unavailable on my system, even if I programmed in the correct 30-second skip code into my universal remote). The only way past commercials is to fast forward. Although I do like that when you hit play from fast forwarding, it backs up a bit.

3. If I wanted to watch all shows from an old series (all repeats), I figured that I could just say record all shows, and it would take care of recording them, right? Sort of. It recorded the same Friends episode 4 separate times in the same day. Stupid thing couldn't even figure out that it had already recorded that show...

4. Back-to-back recordings don't work right. Let's say that I wanted to record two back-to-back shows on ABC and another that runs at the same time as the first show on CBS. For each, I put a couple of minutes buffer for each on the front and back of the shows. Their PVR would show this as being a conflict. Because, in order to record both shows on ABC, they need both tuners. Sage gives you the ability to tell it to ignore buffering on back-to-back shows.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by lwhardin

I have been using SAGETV for over one year and I have to say that I am less than pleased. It is one of the least stable pieces of software that I use. The new 4 version has a terrible user interface.

Now, after updating my Hauppauge 250 drivers for the three cards that I have in the computer. it only shows one card. I have had to reinstall SageTV about 20 times in the past year. I have also had to reinstall windows to make sure that the problems weren't windows related.

Additionally, Sage's encoding of the video files database makes it hard to 'fix' the Sage Recordings when things have gone wrong. For example, if you have to reinstall and have the original Sage Files. You can end up with new recordings that aren't from the original installation and the only way to merge them is to put the new or old ones in the library, which removes the description information.

Sage is probably going to try to charge for upgrades or program guides.

Finally, I have COX cable and their PVR works without a problem. This is in stark contrast to SAGETV.

Sucks to be you, but I've been using Sage for about 2 years. I have 3 turners, 800gigs of movies, and another 760gigs allocated to TV. I run my server 24/7 and it works great.

I would say any problems you have is due user error or hardware.

[tturzynski]

The cable companies are trying to figure out ways to eliminate the consumer from buying excellent products such as SageTV. Verizon for example is forcing customers to rent their HD recorders, because it is the converter box that allows the unscrambled signal to come through.

What most consumers don't know is that antenna's still work in most cities; however it is the cable companies that are saying the reception is very poor. Personal experience, I am 40 miles away from the LA, CA transmitters and with an antenna I receive 50+ channels. Digital and HD are very clear including the main analog channels.

The only problem with SageTV is marketing. Not enough people know about the product.

I have had Sage for 2 years, and the savings over cable are great.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

DOH... And here I thought this silly thread had finally died!

Ha! Three years later, it's being resurrected yet again. There ought to be a law.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Ha! Three years later, it's being resurrected yet again. There ought to be a law.

Maybe we could just switch the thread title to a more appropriate one like

"Why SageTV Will Thrive!"

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Insyte

Is there a profitable market for a niche product like SageTV to survive? Most cable companies are providing PVR service for as little as $6 per month. Tivo, the 600 lb gorilla in the PVR field, is clearly feeling the pain.

Don't get me wrong: I'm very impressed with SageTV and will be making a purchase soon. I'm just nervous that, as the PVR field becomes more commoditized, SageTV might not be around to continue improving/supporting their fine product. Especially without ad revenue and recurring fees...

SageTV folks: Any insight? You clearly think you're going to survive. How do you plan to pull it off?

Curiously,
Ben

Let's put it this way. I collect comic books. I have about 7k of them. I use a program called Comicbase and these guys are up to version 12 with a release each year. As far as I can tell, they've been around about 12yrs.

This is as niche a market as you can get, but they make a living doing this.

A well executed strategy targeting a niche with disposable income will definite enjoy success. Comicbase targets people who can afford the $100+ per month hit of active collecting as well as the $100 per year of upgrades.

Sage, I suspect, similarly targets a niche market with disposable income and advanced needs.

[planetc]

Originally Posted by jominor

Sage I suspect, similarly targets a niche market with disposable income and advanced needs.

...or fools that spend more time tweaking it to make it better than actually using it for it's intended purpose! Sage is as much a hobby as an appliance. Hobbies will always have a following that will pay the money if the product is good.
I never tried anything else before Sage, I did my homework and went for the product that did everything I wanted it to do and more with the flexibility to become even more than that again in the future. I have not been disappointed and long may my hobby continue.

p.s Someone lock this thread now eh? lol

[Para]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Ha! Three years later, it's being resurrected yet again. There ought to be a law.

[PeteCress]

[FONT=Courier New]

Originally Posted by tturzynski

...The only problem with SageTV is marketing. Not enough people know about the product.

When I'm telling people about Sage, my spiel is basically: "Good product, unfortunate web site."

After only a few weeks on Sage, I've already met three people who were looking for exactly what Sage offers, went to the web site, read the pages, came away still wondering what SageTV was.

I tell them what's below - and think Sage sales would go up if their home page would say the same thing - plain language, no Sage-specific terminology, done by a professional writer, not a developer:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Q: What is SageTV?
A: SageTV is a computer application that you install on
   a Windows or Linux PC.

Q: Do you need a special PC?
A: No, but the PC needs to have at least one 
   TV tuner card on it.   

Q: What Does SageTV Do?
   1) SageTV allows you to schedule recordings of television
      shows using SageTV's built-in program schedule, which
      has no monthly fee.

   2) SageTV allows you to watch those recordings.

   3) SageTV allows you to watch live Television

   4) SageTV allows you to watch live television and/or
      those recordings from other TVs anywhere in your house.
      Those TVs can be digital or analog. 
      To do this you need an Ethernet connection near to each 
      TV and one of the following:

   a) Another PC whose video and audio output are fed into
         .. the TV in question, and which is running a second
         .. SageTV "Client" program.
                              OR
   b) SageTV's own $200 "Media Extender" aka "HD200" which
         .. performs the "Client" function instead of a 
         .. dedicated PC.

Q: What is the abovementioned HD200 Media Extender:
A: The HD200 Media Extender is a very small (approx 6" x 7" x
   1.5"), totally silent (no moving parts) black box that
   draws less than 15 watts of electricity and comes with 
   it's own remote control.

   Once you have an HD200 connected to a televsion set
   (digital or analog, it doesn't matter) you have the
   equivalent of a Tivo or a very sophisticated video tape
   recorder - except it's functionality can be shared
   throughout the house and there is no monthly fee.

Using SageTV, clients, a rooftop antenna, and Ethernet you 
can have all the functionality of the highest-end cable
service (albeit with fewer channels) for zero dollars per month.

There is more functionality available through SageTV, like
photo albums, music, and other things, but we won't confuse
the issue by describing them here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[TorontoSage]

Funny I was just thinking that today. I didn't know a thing about SageTV a week ago. Now I know a lot. But I found the SageTV site made it harder than necessary to understand what the product was all about (and I come from the tech industry).

Improving the website would be the least cost, greatest impact thing they could do to improve the overall experience.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

But I found the SageTV site made it harder than necessary to understand what the product was all about (and I come from the tech industry).

Bingo!

Now the question: Is anybody at Sage going to do anything?

Yes, vanishingly-small sample.... but it's just soooo obvious.

Legitimate question: who the hell is Pete Cress to be trying to meddle in Sage's biz?

My answer: we're all in this together. I like the product and want Sage to maximize it's profits in order to maximize the time the product is kept "alive" and maybe to get more and better features in it.

[bluenote]

I've been using sage for years and years and years. And I still have to come to the forums, and puzzle out what the lastest and greatest is in the state of the art, because there are no good explanatory diagrams on the sage website. I tried way back when I started, and I couldn't do it, and I've tried a few months ago when I was wondering what the options were for using HD.

+1 to the idea of adding some basic explanation to the site.

[HD_davester]

I understand your confusion. The basic idea is simple. The server is the host for the database, stream capture and EPG functions. In the simplest deployment (Single host) the server is ALSO a client. A Full client.

The client function is separate and functions BEST on a client appliance (MVP, HD100, HD200 and Placeshifter. These are actually "mini-client" implementations). The Miniclient solves most problems apparent with video card requirements and codec concerns.

The full client includes all the video/sound settings for codecs, etc. It usually is the hardest thing to get just right, because of the variety of hardware people throw at Sage. Some folks get expensive GPUs. I tried that and heat eventually degraded the DACs noticeably, the colors were permanently washed out. I'm just glad I didn't go for one of those $500 adapters.


My life got SO much simpler when I switched to the appliances for clients. I still use the placeshifter remotely and use a PC client in my office. The full client has a tendency to hang and tax the Video adapter ( the fans speed up as it gets hotter, that helps me select a rendering method and codec. If the fans want to run that fast, I find another setting ) After some twiddling and configuration I always get it stable.

I guess the upshot here is that YOU are the systems integrator. YOU select the budget for hardware/software. YOU have to find "your" path. That path is determined by what you want and what you are willing to learn and spend getting there. I did my path, steadily since 2004. I started with the simplest configuration and added. And tweeked. And worked every problem until I understood cause and effect, because that's the nature of systems integration as a practice.

SageTV is really an application that requires good hardware integration skills to get to first base. Old hardware (pre-multicore) will suck for anything but the most basic configurations. 64k blocksize in the filesystem (and speed of the underlying disk) is also important.

It's also *very* important as a systems integrator to remember where ALL the parts (software and hardware) come from. Complaining here about some component not produced by SageTV (correctness of EPG data being one) is useless and irritates the staff. If you are fortunate and tenacious, help will come from one of the posts in this forum.

It always has for me.