Closed Captions - recommended setup

[Steerpike]

I've searched the forums, and can see that cc works with sage, with various limitations and conditions.

CC support for me is essential, since my partner is deaf. I'm ready to build a PVR, and want to go with Sage if possible. Could someone recommend a good 'package' (capture card, video card with TV-out, etc) for such a solution? I can see that the Hauppauge 250 or 350 is what I need for the card; but even with the right capture card, it seems there are additional limitations / requirements on the output device (video card with TV out). For example, I read that the 350's own TV-out capability does not support the display of CCs so no point buying the 350 over the 250.

Basically, money is no option (well ... ). But I want an overall very quiet solution, so a video card that does not have it's own fan is desirable. This will be a 'dedicated' PVR system, so no need for gaming support, etc - I believe I want a video card with 'just enough' speed to display the output. I'm also not looking for an HDTV solution. I plan to use Windows XP Pro.

Being able to export the captured files and edit/burn to DVD is also a requirement, but I presume that's not an issue.

I've already got an old 250 card, and have been able to capture using various utilities, and gotten CC's to be captured to the mpeg file, but now I want to get an all-in-one solution, with TV-out, remote control support, etc, which is why I'm hoping Sage will work.

As an aside, I've been using Womble-MPEG-VCR to edit the MPEG file; it was the only program (a few years ago) that could accurately edit the MPEGs produced. Are the MPEG streams produced by Sage more 'standard'?

Thanks for any advice you can give!

[insomniac]

Sounds to me that you are on the right path. I can say that If i were just starting out like yourself, I would do the following:

Gigabyte 6600GT - passivly cooled, and hands down, the best PQ of any video card out there
pvr250-s sound like your best bet for your cc's - they will also provide you with a very functional 42 button remote


Edit: what tv are you outputing to? If it has a DVI input, your a happy clam. If not, a GF5200 will suffice, but I recommend that you go with my initial recommendation, due to its PQ and HD output capabilities.

I.

Originally Posted by Steerpike

I've searched the forums, and can see that cc works with sage, with various limitations and conditions.

CC support for me is essential, since my partner is deaf. I'm ready to build a PVR, and want to go with Sage if possible. Could someone recommend a good 'package' (capture card, video card with TV-out, etc) for such a solution? I can see that the Hauppauge 250 or 350 is what I need for the card; but even with the right capture card, it seems there are additional limitations / requirements on the output device (video card with TV out). For example, I read that the 350's own TV-out capability does not support the display of CCs so no point buying the 350 over the 250.

Basically, money is no option (well ... ). But I want an overall very quiet solution, so a video card that does not have it's own fan is desirable. This will be a 'dedicated' PVR system, so no need for gaming support, etc - I believe I want a video card with 'just enough' speed to display the output. I'm also not looking for an HDTV solution. I plan to use Windows XP Pro.

Being able to export the captured files and edit/burn to DVD is also a requirement, but I presume that's not an issue.

I've already got an old 250 card, and have been able to capture using various utilities, and gotten CC's to be captured to the mpeg file, but now I want to get an all-in-one solution, with TV-out, remote control support, etc, which is why I'm hoping Sage will work.

As an aside, I've been using Womble-MPEG-VCR to edit the MPEG file; it was the only program (a few years ago) that could accurately edit the MPEGs produced. Are the MPEG streams produced by Sage more 'standard'?

Thanks for any advice you can give!

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by insomniac

Gigabyte 6600GT - passivly cooled, and hands down, the best PQ of any video card out there

Researching the Gigabyte 6600GT, I came across this review - http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Ha...e6600GT/2.html
which shows (and text refers to) a fan on the card. But another site had a forum post announcing a version with a heat pipe ... I guess I just need a way to be sure I order the right one!

Also - I note that this is a PCIe card; The Shuttle case I'm thinking of buying may not have this ... I'll have to check. Are there regular PCI and/or AGP versions of it?

Could you also excuse my ignorance and tell me what PQ is?

Thanks!

[Jere_Jones]

Originally Posted by Steerpike

Could you also excuse my ignorance and tell me what PQ is?

Picture Quality

Jere

[Wheemer]

I use closed captions... I don't personally use them, but they are always recorded in my mpegs Sage produces. This gives me the option of turning them on whenever I wish if needed.

It would be nice to have options on how the CC are displayed though. I'm using VMR9 and they show up with a transparent background. While this looks nice, it makes them hard to read at time when the video interferes.

For the price of a shuttle you can get yourself a nice desktop case and add in all the components you need.

[Jere_Jones]

Don't forget that they help commercial detection!

Jere

[Wheemer]

Even with SA? I didn't think that was implimented yet?

[Jere_Jones]

Yep, even with SA.

Jere

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

... It would be nice to have options on how the CC are displayed though. I'm using VMR9 and they show up with a transparent background. While this looks nice, it makes them hard to read at time when the video interferes.

For the price of a shuttle you can get yourself a nice desktop case and add in all the components you need.

What feature or specification do I need to look for in a video card to ensure I can display CCs, and also (I believe) display overlays required by Save for menus, etc? I want to get the 'least' amount of video card I can get away with, for heat purposes. I will use this card for nothing other than video playback - no games, etc.

Regarding the 'shuttle', etc - I already have 4 PCs in various cases for various purposes, plus a laptop, and I already have a dedicated video processing system to do MPEG encoding of AVIs, etc ... so this system is going to be my first attempt at a true 'HTPC' (home theater PC), which will need to 'fit' (visually as well as physically) with my video gear, under the TV. The Shuttle is one option, another is something like this: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article183-page1.html
A key factor in this type of setup is heat minimization, which is why I need the 'just good enough' Video Card. Building silent PCs is my long-term hobby; but the HTPC is a new venture for me.

[Wheemer]

Wether CC works or not has nothing to do really with the videocard. It's more a function of the decoder.

But if you are buying a new video card then I think you should probably go with a FX 6200. You can even find them with Component output. However if you are outputting to an HDTV the get a passive cooled 6600GT.

Also if you are really concerned with heat, then that Silverstone should be a lot better than a shuttle. I currently have a shuttle, and they can get pretty darn hot with everything jammed in there so tight.

Besides, you should also keep your options available for future upgrades. Meaning a shuttle only has one pci card, so adding another tuner would be harder.

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

Wether CC works or not has nothing to do really with the videocard. It's more a function of the decoder.

OK, I remember now ... I played around with GB-PVR a few years ago, and had to dink around with the Intervideo MPEG Decoder - to get CC's to work; this also affected 'overlays' if I recall correctly - ability for menus (and CCs) to appear on top of video material, perhaps. So this is entirely governed by the decoders, not the card? I read earlier that I CANNOT use the Hauppauge 350 to output CCs, which made it sound like it WAS card specific ... but I guess that's a special case, given that the 350 is a hardware decoder, not just a video card? So ... 'any' decent video card is going to support the things I need for both menu's and CCs (VMR9, perhaps?). I presume that by installing Sage, I get what I need in the decoder department.

Originally Posted by Wheemer

Also if you are really concerned with heat, then that Silverstone should be a lot better than a shuttle. I currently have a shuttle, and they can get pretty darn hot with everything jammed in there so tight.

Besides, you should also keep your options available for future upgrades. Meaning a shuttle only has one pci card, so adding another tuner would be harder.

The particular Silverstone I linked to only allows one PCI and one AGP, I believe, due to it's low height; it takes a standard ATX board, but you have to use 'risers' to be able to install video cards at 90 degrees; one AGP and one PCI, or two PCIs. I don't think PCIx is an option with that setup.

I was considering a pretty expensive shuttle, with support for a pentium M CPU (laptop CPU) and PCIx - SD11G5 - but it's VERY expensive, and the pentium M's are not cheap either, so I may abandon that approach and go with the Silverstone.

Thanks !

[Wheemer]

Well Sage does come with it's own decoder, but many, including myself, have opted for the Nvidia decoder as it produces better results.

Well you do need to be outputting though an actual real video card for the CC to work, so you are right that the 350's hardware output will not work.


I wouldn't say that just any old video card will work, many people end up upgrading their video card to improve the picture quality. I prefer Nvidia and I would not recommend anything less than a FX 5200 for display on a SDTV. Like I said, for HDTV, you'll want to stick with a 6600gt.

As far as the case is concerned, there's no way I'd limit my setup by going with a case that only supports two expansion cards, but that's just me.

also the since you are buying this stuff new, then I'd go with a pcix motherboard, even if for nothing other than the video cards being cheaper.

Don't design your system based on a particular case design. Get a case that will have good air flow and allow full use from your motherboards slots.

[Steerpike]

Thanks for all your help so far. Back to the video capture/MPEG encoder card itself; are the Hauppauge 250/350 the ONLY cards that will allow capturing of CCs? What is it about the 250 that makes it compatible with CC capture - what 'spec' feature should I look for in another card?

I see from Sage's site that "Other MPEG-2 encoding cards based on the Conexant IVAC-15, IVAC-16, CX23415, CX23416 or StreamMachine 2210 Codec should function correctly but may not have been tested".

I know that, to get CCs in the stream, I need to select a custom DVD capture format; (DVD Special 2, aka Output Type 14?) is that the feature that most cards are lacking?

While I'm comfortable going with the 250, I'd like to know if there are some other options since I have not bought it yet!

Thanks!

[Wheemer]

Hauppauge wrote CC support directly into it's drivers for the 250/350 series. So it was very simple for Sage to add support for this. No other card in Sage will have CC.

CC is not very important to Sage, so they have never added native support for it. If you look at Windows MCE, it has CC on any supported card, because they made the effort to build in universal CC in the software.

[Steerpike]

Thanks. I assume that, while MCE handles cc's well, there are numerous other limiations that make it undesirable. From what I recall, the issue with MCE is that the captured data is not in directly accessible format - that is, it's not standard MPEG, and thus, can't be edited and burned to DVD easily. Is that true, and if so, are there easy 'hacks' to get around it?

My PRIMARY goal is to record and playback shows, but I also want the ability to 'keep' the good ones in a non-proprietary format - which for me means, burn to DVD with chapters etc. So Sage is still my likely best bet.

It's a shame that CC support is so poor; even though my hearing is perfect, I've gotten used to them now as they are always on for my partner. They help me catch a lot of dialog on "South Park", for example!

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

Well Sage does come with it's own decoder, but many, including myself, have opted for the Nvidia decoder as it produces better results.

...

I wouldn't say that just any old video card will work, many people end up upgrading their video card to improve the picture quality. I prefer Nvidia and I would not recommend anything less than a FX 5200 for display on a SDTV. Like I said, for HDTV, you'll want to stick with a 6600gt.

I'm getting closer to actually building this now; Can you elaborate on 'the Nvidia decoder'? Is this a built-in part of the video card drivers, which I will get by virtue of purchasing an NVidea-based video card? I plan to buy the 6600 GT, so just want to be sure I'm getting the appropriate (and best) decoder. Thanks!

[Wheemer]

I guess some Nvidia card might come with the decoder, although I think you might need to purchase it seperately.

Here it is: http://www.nvidia.com/object/dvd_decoder.html

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

Well Sage does come with it's own decoder, but many, including myself, have opted for the Nvidia decoder as it produces better results.

I've now got a 'test' system hooked up, and it's all working! I have a 'server' running SageTVServer, with the appropriate cc setting in the config file. I then have my laptop, wirelessly connected to the server, running SageTV Client, also with the appropriate 'cc' setting in the config file. CC's are displaying on my laptop!

I'm using 'VMR9' as my video renderer; I had to switch the 'MPEG2 Video Decoder Filter' from SageTV MPEG Video Decoder to InterVideo Video Decoder to get this to work. Is there any difference between the two? If the Sage Decoder is better, I could switch to the InterVideo one only when I need to view CC's.

Once I build my final HTPC, with an NVidia card, I'll also buy the NVidia decoder (which you say supports CC).

Thanks for all your help!

[Wheemer]

The intervideo decoder may be better or worse, I haven't really tested it.

Glad to hear it's working for you!

The nvidia decoder has a 30 day trial too.

[cord]

If you want the least video card you can get, have you considered the nvidia geforce 6150 motherboards? They have a built-in video chipset that includes hardware assistance for mpeg2 decoding, so they're beefy enough to play DVDs and HDTV, but far too wimpy for serious gaming. They're microATX boards, but they do tend to have one or two PCI slots along with a PCI express or two. All of them I've seen are fanless motherboards, so you wouldn't have to deal with a northbridge fan or video fan. That just leaves the CPU and the power supply.