Selecting an HDTV

[Humanzee]

So, this has probably been asked before in other ways but I am going to ask again. Maybe there are some new options on the market that are worth discussing anyway.

I hope to get an HDTV soon, probably 40+ inches, probably rear projection microdisplay. For the time being I won't be recording HD, so it will be mainly for DVD viewing, Sage, and misc PC software. That being said what should I look for?

Of course 1080p would certainly be nice but the price point is currently pretty punishing. People say that it isn't worth it anyway because there is not any media available for 1080p. That's true but what about my PC applications? I'm thinking that I want the highest desktop resolution that I can manage on an HD set. Which would be what 1920X1080? I might play the occational game where higher the resolution is desired. etc.

The next price point down are the 1080i/720p sets. Are these even worth considering to use at a 1920X1080 resolution, or is interlacing a 1080p signal to work with a 1080i hdtv a pain in the rear? I've heard on this forum that it doesn't work well to try that.

Does 720p make for an adequate desktop on an HDTV?

There are some sets out that have a VGA style analog input, does that imply that they can run any resolution that I can send over an analog cable, or is that just a dumb thing to try if I can plug in DVI/HDMI?

Should I suffer longer with my SDTV and wait for a better price on the 1080p sets, or jump in with something more affordable?

What would YOU do?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

So, this has probably been asked before in other ways but I am going to ask again. Maybe there are some new options on the market that are worth discussing anyway.

I hope to get an HDTV soon, probably 40+ inches, probably rear projection microdisplay. For the time being I won't be recording HD, so it will be mainly for DVD viewing, Sage, and misc PC software. That being said what should I look for?

HDMI and CableCard would be two things I'd consider musts. I don't know if I'd use them, but they're the kinds of things you just don't want to be without (especially HDMI).

Of course 1080p would certainly be nice but the price point is currently pretty punishing. People say that it isn't worth it anyway because there is not any media available for 1080p. That's true but what about my PC applications? I'm thinking that I want the highest desktop resolution that I can manage on an HD set. Which would be what 1920X1080? I might play the occational game where higher the resolution is desired. etc.

Yes, 1080p is 1920x1080. Some things to consider, on a "normal" sized TV, 1080p is going to be really small for a desktop resolution. But the realestate would be nice. Oh, and regarding media, while there is no 1080p media*, there is 1080i media, and properly deinterlaced it should be better at 1080p than 720p.

*That's not technically correct, some WMV-HD release are 1080p, and HD-DVD/Blu-ray will both be 1080p.

I suppose on the 1080p thought, I'd get one if I could, however I wouldn't worry if you can't justify the price premium. On a set that size, the difference vs 720p will be reduced.

The next price point down are the 1080i/720p sets. Are these even worth considering to use at a 1920X1080 resolution,

No, with any digital set, you absolutely want to run the native resolution, so on a 720p set, that means 720p. There are only a very few sets that can do both 1080i and 720p native and they are CRTs. In the microdisplay category there's basically only 720p or 1080p.

or is deinterlacing a 1080p signal to 1080i a pain in the rear?

Which way are you talking? Do you mean 1080i->1080p? We are only just now beginning to see hardware capable of deinterlacing 1080i with the same level of proficiency we're used to with 480i. And that hardware is still on th high end, GeForce 7800, Realta HQV, Genum VXP, etc.

I've heard on this forum that it doesn't work well to try that.

About the only time you run into trouble is when you have an interlaced source, and an interlaced output, or more specifically when they are both the same timings (eg 480i-480i, 1080i-1080i), but FWIW, 1080i is much easier/better than 480i since the GPU is actually rendering at 1080i (vs SD, where the GPU is rendering at 480p or something different).

Does 720p make for an adequate desktop on an HDTV?

I'm typing on one right now.

There are some sets out that have a VGA style analog input, does that imply that they can run any resolution that I can send over an analog cable,

No, HDTVs only support a handfull of timings, unlike multiscan PC monitors. Usually those timings are the standard TV timings (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i), and if you're lucky, maybe 800x600. Of course digital displays are better than their CRT counterparts, ususally it's a little easier with them.

or is that just a dumb thing to try if I can plug in DVI/HDMI?

Not dumb, but if you've got an digital input, on a digital display, use it.

Should I suffer longer with my SDTV and wait for a better price on the 1080p sets, or jump in with something more affordable?

Only you can answer that, but I'm on my second HDTV (third if you count the one of my parent's I used for a while). I wouldn't buy anything else now, and don't regret either purchase.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Which way are you talking? Do you mean 1080i->1080p?

No I meant to say the opposite, I corrected it above. If my computer is sending a digital signal out of its DVI connector, it would natively be a progressive signal and thus need to be interlaced in order to work at 1080 lines of resolution on a 1080i set. Which I hear is possible with some video cards but doesn’t work that well and thus is a pain in the rear.

A local salesperson told me that the only microdisplay sets that have 1080p are the Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCoS) models from JVC and Sony. I haven’t had any luck with Sony products so that leaves me with JVC. But I hear that the JVC though scoring well with overall brightness and color rendering, haven’t done too well in the true black and high contrast departments.

Is it true that there are not currently any DLP sets that will do 1080p? I also read somewhere over at the avsforum that people are concerned that some 1080p sets may not do 1080p over the HDMI connector. I would think that would be the point of HDMI, wouldn’t it? Or is there some technological problem that I am missing?

I’m not sure I like the spinning color wheel idea with DLP either, seems like one extra moving part to go bad. Any body have any other brands to look at?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

No I meant to say the opposite, I corrected it above. If my computer is sending a digital signal out of its DVI connector, it would natively be a progressive signal and thus need to be interlaced in order to work at 1080 lines of resolution on a 1080i set. Which I hear is possible with some video cards but doesn’t work that well and thus is a pain in the rear.

I don't think that's possible, 1080i sets aren't going to accept a 1080i signal, you'll have to set your video card to 1080i to drive a 1080i set. Note that it's possible to send 1080i (interlaced) over DVI/HDMI. And it's really pretty easy to get 1080i output anymore.

A local salesperson told me that the only microdisplay sets that have 1080p are the Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCoS) models from JVC and Sony. I haven’t had any luck with Sony products so that leaves me with JVC. But I hear that the JVC though scoring well with overall brightness and color rendering, haven’t done too well in the true black and high contrast departments.

That's true and false, see below (I'd tend to lean towards saying they're wrong).

Is it true that there are not currently any DLP sets that will do 1080p?[/QUOTE]

There are no "true 1080p" DLPs, by that meaning there are no DLP chips with 2073600 (1920x1080) mirrors. However there are 1080p DLP displays, Samsung makes a few. They use "wobulation" to get 1080p out of a chip with fewer mirrors. One thread on AVS had pictures showing that while it couldn't perfectly resolve every possible combination, in many cases wobulation may be better than actual pixels.

I also read somewhere over at the avsforum that people are concerned that some 1080p sets may not do 1080p over the HDMI connector. I would think that would be the point of HDMI, wouldn’t it? Or is there some technological problem that I am missing?

I'm not sure of all the details myself, but as far as DVI goes, it normally takes dual-link DVI to get 1080p, and dual-link is rather rare. Not sure how HDMI goes, it's slightly different.

I’m not sure I like the spinning color wheel idea with DLP either, seems like one extra moving part to go bad. Any body have any other brands to look at?

You've basically got CRT, DiLA/SXRD, Plasma, LCD, and DLP, each have their plusses and minuses.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'm not sure of all the details myself, but as far as DVI goes, it normally takes dual-link DVI to get 1080p, and dual-link is rather rare. Not sure how HDMI goes, it's slightly different.

Hmm, I read that "The dual link DVI pins effectively double the power of transmission and provide an increase of speed and signal quality; i.e. a DVI single link 60-Hz LCD can display a resolution of 1920 x 1080, while a DVI dual link can display a resolution of 2048 x 1536"

I suppose "can" doesn't neccessarily mean that it will. Is the typical graphics card DVI output single link or dual link? I would hope it would work to use a DVI>HDMI conversion cable to push 1080p to any set that supports 1080p. HDMI is supposed to cover all of the HD resolutions so you'd think that a conversion cable would take the highest possible resolution DVI-D signal and convert it to HDMI at that resolution. But who knows the actual implementations each manufacturer uses.

Maybe I should just sit on the fence for a while and listen to the chatter. I'd hate to spend the extra dollars for a 1080p set I can only use to watch OTA 1080i. Since Blueray and HD-DVD aren't really out yet, I wonder how anybody tests these sets at 1080p if not by using it with a computer.

Sombody ought to make a graphics/audio combo card specifically for the HTPC market that uses HDMI, as it also can send 8 channels of digital audio.

[sleonard]

1. At that size, 1080x should be nice. I've got a 43" 720 DLP and it's great for both Windows (as a monitor), Sage, and DVD's but the next one will be 1080p.

2. Most of the 1080p displays only accept a 1080i signal and deinterlace it internally.

3. There is (I think) a 1 or 2 of the 1080p sets that do take a 1080p input. AVS Forums and HTPC News.com should help find them. If they are not out yet, they will be soon. Wait for one.

4. Single link DVI/HDMI will handle 1080p just fine.

5. 1st choice is a 1080p that will accept a 1080p input. 2nd choice would be 720p. Last choice is a 1080p that accepts only 1080i input.

[blade]

I have a 57" rear projection crt and at 1080i the text is far too small to be usable for a desktop, unless you plan to sit really close. I sit around 10ft away and it looks tiny.

For using the desktop I would plan on 720p.

[Jesse]

A tricky subject to be sure. I have got the boss on board for the purchase of an HDTV, but it's tough to be sure you are getting the right thing.

We are sitting at an average of 10.5 feet from the screen, so I am thinking a 50" screen. IMO the plasmas have the best picture. Based on my research (mostly AVS and then viewing at Tweeter, BB, CC, and Fry's) I am leaning toward the Panasonic. Recently, while at Fry's, my wife spotted the Mitsu 1080p DLP set. I am guessing that what they were displaying on the tv was something that Mitsu gave them because it looked breathtaking, far better than the other HD sets. Once I had them switch to discovery HD (same thing shown on the other HD sets) it looked no better than the rest of the HD DLP sets. When I asked the salesman the native res. of the tv I was surprised that he knew right off that it was 1920x1080. He then went on to explain that the set would not actually accept a 1080p signal, but that was ok because nothing is broadcast in 1080p. So the boss asks, "What is the point?" Good question.

You would think that being a computer/AV hobbiest I would learn to accept that everything I buy is already obsolete. Somehow I am having a tough time doing this with a $3500 tv.

On to something stanger said:

HDMI and CableCard would be two things I'd consider musts. I don't know if I'd use them, but they're the kinds of things you just don't want to be without (especially HDMI).

Why cable card? It is my understanding that cable card will not support the on screen guide. It is good to be prepared for any eventuality (especially with a purchase this size) but I cannot ever see not having either a Sat Receiver, a digital cable box, or my HTPC. For this reason I have been leaning towards the industrial panasonic. I like the included component BNC connection, serial control, and the ability to add HDMI whenever I need it. Am I missing something re. the cable card?

I guess I am just hoping that I will be happy with 720p for 5 or 6 years, by which time I will feel I have gotten my money out of the display.

Jesse

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Why cable card?

Mainly for the "what if" case. For example, what if, down the road you get cable and just want to watch it live (casually, in the background), I'd much rather have a CC than have to go through Sage (or any PVR) or use a cable box.

It is my understanding that cable card will not support the on screen guide.

I say, "who cares?", if I want a guide, I'll be using my PVR, if I'm not using my PVR I'd just be surfing.

It is good to be prepared for any eventuality (especially with a purchase this size) but I cannot ever see not having either a Sat Receiver, a digital cable box, or my HTPC.

Personally I abhor STBs. Can't stand them for TV, and loath the idea that I'm going to have to use them when I finally move (I'm getting satellite, because I'm sick of the inconsistency of analog cable).

For this reason I have been leaning towards the industrial panasonic.

Industrial plasmas are an absolutely killer deal (if you want a plasma). Especially the Pioneer ones (less sure about the Panasonics). I really like being able to add a card to do whatever.

I like the included component BNC connection, serial control, and the ability to add HDMI whenever I need it. Am I missing something re. the cable card?

Well you're missing cablecard, but when you save so much on the plasma, probably a negligible price to pay

[Jesse]

Thanks stanger,

Couple more questions:

When cable card becomes available for PC's will the lack of a guide be a non-issue since the pvr app. will provide a guide? I am on Directv now, but the thought of digital cable strait into my HTPC with no STB is enticing. I am guessing that this is the only scenario where I could see myself with no other boxs but the HTPC itself.

The panasonics have a native res of 1366x768 (seems most 50" plasmas do). I have read that 1 to 1 pixel mapping will yield the best picture, but the closest I can see a pc getting to that is 1360x768. Will I be loosing much of anything (besides 3 pixels on each side)?

I am using component out of my 9800pro into my SDTV. It was a very nice improvement over SVID and component. Would there be any advantage to using DVI once I get the HDTV? My cable run would need to be in the neighborhood of 35'-40'. Will DVI tolerate a cable run of that length?

Thanks to stanger and everyone else for the helpful info.

Jesse

[Humanzee]

from http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html

"The official DVI specification mandates that all DVI equipment must maintain a signal at 5 meters (16 feet) in length. But many manufacturers are putting out much stronger cards and bigger monitors, so the maximum length possible is never exact."

Other than the guide, the other thing that is missing from cable card is tha capability to use pay per view. You'll have to coordinate your pay channels with your cable company as well.

As far as selecting an HDTV, I'm probably best off waiting until the wife and I get a house. I'd hate to get a measly little 50 inch set (which is too big for our apartment) and then realize I should have gone bigger once we have a dedicated theater room.

I suppose I could go CRT HDTV and save a couple grand to just replace what I have now. Then once I have a dedicated room I can move the CRT to the bedroom and get a larger format display. That way maybe I can justify buying the theater audio equipment now also. HMMMM

I suppose the 1080p format will be better supported in a year as well.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Thanks stanger,

Couple more questions:

When cable card becomes available for PC's will the lack of a guide be a non-issue since the pvr app. will provide a guide?

Yup, theoretically, with CableCard, recording would work with digital, just like it does now with analog (but with restrictions on playback and archiving probably).

I am on Directv now, but the thought of digital cable strait into my HTPC with no STB is enticing.

The achilies heel of cablecard, and cable in general (for me at least) is that most (vast majority) of the channels I want are still analog.

I am guessing that this is the only scenario where I could see myself with no other boxs but the HTPC itself.

The panasonics have a native res of 1366x768 (seems most 50" plasmas do). I have read that 1 to 1 pixel mapping will yield the best picture, but the closest I can see a pc getting to that is 1360x768. Will I be loosing much of anything (besides 3 pixels on each side)?

Depends on what the plasma does with that, if it just blacks the extra pixels, then no biggie, but if it scales that to 1366, that wouldn't be great.

I am using component out of my 9800pro into my SDTV. It was a very nice improvement over SVID and component. Would there be any advantage to using DVI once I get the HDTV?

Maybe, depends on the TV as much as anything.

My cable run would need to be in the neighborhood of 35'-40'. Will DVI tolerate a cable run of that length?

That would mean an expensive DVI cable

Originally Posted by Humanzee

As far as selecting an HDTV, I'm probably best off waiting until the wife and I get a house. I'd hate to get a measly little 50 inch set (which is too big for our apartment) and then realize I should have gone bigger once we have a dedicated theater room.

If you need help procrastinating

http://www.projectorpeople.com/homet...ubishi+HC3000U

I suppose I could go CRT HDTV and save a couple grand to just replace what I have now.

If you're talking rear projection (ie not a direct view "tube"), I really wouldn't do that. My parents have a 46" Mits, and the focus and convergence on that just drives me bonkers. CRTs may be capable of a better picture, but it requires a lot of work. You can get a better picture on a digital with less effort.

[Kanati]

Originally Posted by stanger89

If you're talking rear projection (ie not a direct view "tube"), I really wouldn't do that. My parents have a 46" Mits, and the focus and convergence on that just drives me bonkers. CRTs may be capable of a better picture, but it requires a lot of work. You can get a better picture on a digital with less effort.

Heh... Yes it does. Took me at least 8 hours one day to get my mitsu 65" CRT looking where I wanted it. And then you are constantly seeing little things in "this corner" or "that corner" so you are always going back in and tweaking here and there.

For rear projection though I wouldn't go with anything BUT a CRT... Sony G90 please.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by Kanati

For rear projection though I wouldn't go with anything BUT a CRT... Sony G90 please.

Kanati, did you mean for "projection", or "rear projection"? FWIW, the G90 is a 'front' projector. (yes, it 'can' be a rear projector also, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having a G90)

In my experience, a PROPERLY set up projector just needs convergence every 6 months, if that (with CRT). I'm talking front projectors here. IMHO, there really aren't any rear projection CRT's worth having for the money.

-PGPfan

[Kanati]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

Kanati, did you mean for "projection", or "rear projection"? FWIW, the G90 is a 'front' projector. (yes, it 'can' be a rear projector also, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having a G90)

In my experience, a PROPERLY set up projector just needs convergence every 6 months, if that (with CRT). I'm talking front projectors here. IMHO, there really aren't any rear projection CRT's worth having for the money.

-PGPfan

Heh.... yeah. I meant front projector.

[Humanzee]

Well, no I was thinking about looking for a smaller conventional CRT set to use as a stop gap until I know how much of a theater room I’m going to have in a house down the road.

You know CRT of the large box, several hundred pound variety. I was thinking that I could get something in a 30-36 inch range for far less money. But after a cursory look around at the prices, I’m not all that impressed for what you get for the money.

If I get something for the living room now that is too big to fit in the armoire in the bedroom later, it will be more difficult to rationalize the upgrade to a larger format display when I do have the room for it.

The problem with me is that the more I research the more confused I get as to what I want vs. what I need vs. what I want to spend. I guess I need to measure the opening in the armoire and work backwards from there. Reevaluate, research, change my mind again, and then settle on reading a book instead of watching TV.

[dkardatzke]

I'll offer a caution here which is since the CRTs are so big and heavy, where will you put it when you want to upgrade to a 60" plus screen for a media room someday? That's the beauty of the DLP/LCD projection TVs. They are so light and shallow they could be put into a cabinet at some point in a living room down the road or if small enough, in a bedroom/office.

As a FYI, I use a Samsung HLR DLP TV and I think it's a wonderful picture. My only complaint is that Samsung doesn't use discrete IR codes which doesn't cooperate with my remote macros but the picture is awesome.

[Humanzee]

After doing some reading over at avs forums, I hear that Samsung and the sets from HP are among the very few microdisplay units that currently support 1080p from either a vga input (Samsung) or HDMI(HP). What resolution are you running your Samsung at and how big is it?

I guess it is a mute point for me though, 1080p doesn't seem to be available below about a 50" screen, and it appears that I might be able to at best squeeze a 42" into the armoire in the bedroom. Which means I should probably also condsider Plasma and LCD.

[Commodore 64]

http://tinyurl.com/5acu2

They are out of stock, but for a while you could get that 30" widescreen tv for a pretty good deal. It would be perfect for someone in an apartment or something that needed a "tweener" HDTV.

I paid $800 for a previous model of that TV 3 years ago, and I still use it.

[dkardatzke]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

After doing some reading over at avs forums, I hear that Samsung and the sets from HP are among the very few microdisplay units that currently support 1080p from either a vga input (Samsung) or HDMI(HP). What resolution are you running your Samsung at and how big is it?

I don't have a 1080p set and my max resolution is 1024x768. It's a 56" and I have it connected to SageTV via VGA and the HD quality looks pretty good. I can't tell the difference between the OTA HD from SageTV and the same HD feed from my Cable Box (other than the DD audio feed). I needed my HDMI connection for my DVD player since it will only upscale to 1080i via the HDMI connector.