STV Import: Automatic Aspect Ratio Switcher for SageTV 4

[balazer]

Originally Posted by nielm

If the AR is encoded in the MPG file (eg for dvd's and digital recordings), and if the decode supports it, and if your display pixels are 'square', the 'Source' AR will correctly scale 4x3 and 16x9 content, with top/botton or left/right black bars depending on your display AR.. This is a core function of the MPEG2 decoders and Windows, and does not require this plugin...
see also http://www.sage-community.org/index....i/AspectRatios

Yes, but as I understand it, the "Source" aspect ratio in SageTV is rather inflexible, always scaling the video to fill the screen without cropping. It would not allow, for example, the functionality I described: using a 4:3 monitor, 4:3 content would be full-screen, and 16:9 content would be cropped to fill the screen. You can configure "zoom", I guess, but that setting would zoom all content, even content that matches the aspect ratio of your screen. Right?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by balazer

Yes, but as I understand it, the "Source" aspect ratio in SageTV is rather inflexible, always scaling the video to fill the screen without cropping.

Not quite, Source works basically like an automatic selection of 4:3 or 16:9 depending on the flags in the video stream, only it has it's own zoom/offset settings. For example recordings are 4:3 (and flagged such) and are displayed in a 4:3 area according to your zoom/offset settings. Anamorphic DVDs are 16:9 (and flagged such) and fill a 16:9 area, again, according to the zoom/offset settings.

It would not allow, for example, the functionality I described: using a 4:3 monitor, 4:3 content would be full-screen, and 16:9 content would be cropped to fill the screen.

With source, 16:9 content is letterboxed on a 4:3 display.

[balazer]

Originally Posted by stanger89

For example recordings are 4:3 (and flagged such) and are displayed in a 4:3 area according to your zoom/offset settings. Anamorphic DVDs are 16:9 (and flagged such) and fill a 16:9 area, again, according to the zoom/offset settings.

So with the mode set to "source", there are separate zoom settings for 16:9 content and 4:3 content?

[stanger89]

There are 4 AR modes: Source, 4:3, 16:9, and Fill. Each as one setting for zoom fill (for a total of 4 settings).

4:3 and 16:9 stretch the video (according to their respective zoom settings) to fill a 4:3, or 16:9 area respectively.

Fill will stretch video to fill the screen according to it's zoom settings.

Source will stretch the video to either a 4:3, or 16:9 area depending on the flags in the video stream, again, according to the "Source" zoom settings.

[balazer]

Well actually "source" uses the aspect ratio of the source, which might not be 4:3 or 16:9.

So everything I said in my second post was correct. Why didn't you just say so?

It's too bad that SageTV has limited automatic aspect ratio capabilities. Most HDTVs and set-top boxes have a "zoom" or "aspect ratio" button on the remote that does what a person would think it would do.

I did come up with a work-around to display 4:3 content full-screen and zoom 16:9 content on a 4:3 monitor. It uses non-square pixels, so it's not suitable for use on many fixed-pixel displays.

Set the Windows display mode to something with 16:9 pixel dimensions (e.g. 1280 x 720). Set the mode to "source" with 100% vertical zoom and 133% horizontal zoom. Voilà, 4:3 content will be displayed full-screen, and 16:9 content will be zoomed to fill the screen.

The same idea could be extended to other display aspect ratios, e.g. 16:10, 15:9, or 5:4. You could also set it up to do a partial zoom/letterbox of wide content - i.e., leaving black bars, but not as large as a normal letterboxing.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by balazer

Well actually "source" uses the aspect ratio of the source, which might not be 4:3 or 16:9.

So everything I said in my second post was correct. Why didn't you just say so?

Sorry that wasn't the way I read it.

It's too bad that SageTV has limited automatic aspect ratio capabilities. Most HDTVs and set-top boxes have a "zoom" or "aspect ratio" button on the remote that does what a person would think it would do.

I'm not sure what you mean, Sage can quite easilly do that. Between Source, 16:9 and Fill, I have all my AR needs handled, and I've got a 2.35:1 display . Source works for most things. 16:9 (set to about 133% vertical zoom) works for the letterboxed in 4:3 video. And Fill (with 133% vertical zoom) works to correctly stretch scope movies to fill my screen.

Really the only thing missing in Sage is a toggle (which I do in Girder).

I did come up with a work-around to display 4:3 content full-screen and zoom 16:9 content on a 4:3 monitor. It uses non-square pixels, so it's not suitable for use on many fixed-pixel displays.

All you have to do is set set source to your normal settings, and then set the "4:3" setting to about 133% horizontal zoom, and (if you're talking letterbox video) 133% vertical zoom. No need to mess with Windows display settings.

Here's what I do in my setup:

1280x720 FP
Anamorphic lens
2.35:1 screen (I detect non-square pixels )
I have the following AR settings:

• Fill (for 2.35:1 anamorphic DVDs)
  • 100% Horizontal Zoom
  • 133% Vertical Zoom
• Source (for recordings and 16:9 content)
  • 75% Horizontal Zoom (to counteract the anamorphic lens)
  • 100% Vertical Zoom
• 4:3 (not used)
  • 100% Horizontal Zoom
  • 100% Vertical Zoom
• 16:9 (for 16:9 lettebox (non-anamorphic) content)
  • 75% Horizontal Zoom (to counteract the anamorphic lens)
  • 133% Vertical Zoom (to crop the bars)

Not as good as TheaterTek's unlimited AR capabilities, but covers probably 95%+ of cases.

[balazer]

Well I still don't see how I could achieve the following behavior without resorting to the trick that I mentioned:

Using a 4:3 monitor, have 4:3 content be displayed full-screen, and have 16:9 content zoomed to fill the screen - automatically, without any need for me to change settings as I flip channels.

This is what I do everyday now with my MyHD, and it couldn't be simpler. I'm thinking about buying a 16:10 monitor, in which case I have the same problem.

[Naylia]

Nielm,

Apparently I haven't been paying any attention for about the last year since my setup has been very stable....so stumbling on this today I just wanted to say, This is freaking sweet!!! Very well done, can't wait to install it this weekend.

[rickgillyon]

I'm assuming this can't be used to address AR problems on the MVP?

Problem is that all my STB recordings are 16:9 (more or less) but they are marked as 4:3 on the recording. This is fine in Sage as I can switch the AR, but I can't do it on the MVP so they all look rubbish...

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

I'm assuming this can't be used to address AR problems on the MVP?

Problem is that all my STB recordings are 16:9 (more or less) but they are marked as 4:3 on the recording. This is fine in Sage as I can switch the AR, but I can't do it on the MVP so they all look rubbish...

Don't know if this will help or not but VideoRedo will let you change the aspect ratio when it saves the file you might try that.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

VideoRedo will let you change the aspect ratio when it saves the file you might try that.

I'm a videoredo user, but I really don't want to process every recording to make it 16:9. I think Sage would delete it if I did anyway. I'm really looking for a way to make the stream appear 16:9 to Sage...

This plugin would be perfect, but once applied the MVP won't boot.

[ToxMox]

nielm:
would it be possible to add a feature to this import that would switch AR depending on whether the guide data says a program is in HD or not for a specific channel?
So any program that has the pink marker would use Source in my case and any program on my DT channels that doesn't have the pink marker would use 4x3 and any program on a non DT channel I would want to use Source.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.
You could really make my week by doing this. Then I wouldn't have to configure a custom AR for every individual program.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

nielm:
would it be possible to add a feature to this import that would switch AR depending on whether the guide data says a program is in HD or not for a specific channel?
So any program that has the pink marker would use Source in my case and any program on my DT channels that doesn't have the pink marker would use 4x3 and any program on a non DT channel I would want to use Source.
I hope I am explaining this correctly.
You could really make my week by doing this. Then I wouldn't have to configure a custom AR for every individual program.

yes its possible... you might have to wait a little for it to be done though: I have a lot on my to-do list at the moment!

[ToxMox]

Thats cool. Just know I'll be very happy when that is in there

[Humanzee]

Tox, Neilm, The problem there is that you are relying on the EPG. In our area one of the PBS channels programming gets marked as HD. Its actually is broadcast in 1080i but the content only fills ths 4:3 area leaving black columns. Its a simulcast of their analog broadcast. This isn't too bad but sometimes that same content is lettter boxed so the actual content looks tiny in the middle of the screen. Don't ask me why but thats the way they do it, and in that case i'd want to use the 16:9 AR setting.

A better way would be to examine the content itself. There was some talk a while back about detecting the actual aspect ratio of the content by adding another output file to showanalyzer or comskip. Im talking here about the ratio of the content inside of what is broadcast. If you know the ratio of the broadcast, then what portion /offset of that ratio is actually content and the resolution of the users display, I would think you could write something that would automatically zoom any content to best fill the screen. From Soucre to 133% vertical or what ever. This way the user wouldn't ever have to determine the correct ratio for each program, just wait for it to be detected.

I would think that It could probably even be made mark the ratio at any given scene change or commercial break so that the commercial could be in 4:3 and the program cropped by 16:9 or something. Not that I watch commercials. But on a show like Ebert and Ropper the content is switching between a letterbox movie preview and a 4:3 of them talking about it. It would be sweet if the ratio automatically switched at these scene changes. Sort of like an active Pan Scan but only one that crops out black bars and station logo's.

I mentioned this possiblilty to Jere a while back and he seemed up for it but I guess the idea never got off the ground. He said that the ratio's are already detected as part of his program and it wouldn't be hard to make an output file of some sort.

Maybe its worth looking into again. Hint Hint

[JParedis]

I'm using SageTV and the MVP for a while now. I'm running the service on a PC with a 'traditional' screen (close to 4x3 I guess) and the MVP is scart (Europe) connected to a standard Philips 16x9 TV.

I watch SageTV only via the MVP, and was always a bit enoyed as I switched manually between 4x3 and 19x9. I moved at the time to MC16x9 (MVP only) as I had expected the UI to be 16x9 on my TV, but it isn't - it's 4x3 . But I see so often MC16x9 screenshots ... Am I doing something wrong and should the UI be 16x9 on my 16x9 TV set? I tried several options, but never got a decent result.

Is it correct that the "Aspect Ratio Mode" in the setup is the default (got it on Source)? And the MVP UI allows you to change this default via the options (yellow button on the remote) when playing a video, but this STVi lets you define a non-default at different levels? Which I believe is great Thanks!

Does this STVi fully work in MC16x9? I installed it, but have now and than some delay in switching modes, and sometimes it does not seem to switch at all (or maybe I'm just to impatient).

Thanks for any feedback - the best result would be that I could have my TV UI constantly at 16x9, switching to 4x3 when needed (always thought that was possible, just don't seem to get it working).

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by JParedis

I watch SageTV only via the MVP, and was always a bit enoyed as I switched manually between 4x3 and 19x9. I moved at the time to MC16x9 (MVP only) as I had expected the UI to be 16x9 on my TV, but it isn't - it's 4x3 . But I see so often MC16x9 screenshots ... Am I doing something wrong and should the UI be 16x9 on my 16x9 TV set? I tried several options, but never got a decent result.

Yes, the UI (SageMC or any other) should display in 16x9. Did you change the "Display Aspect Ratio Settings" in the Detailed Setup (you'll have to temporarily switch to the default STV since this setting is not yet available from within SageMC) to 16:9 ?

Dirk

[JParedis]

Originally Posted by flachbar

Yes, the UI (SageMC or any other) should display in 16x9. Did you change the "Display Aspect Ratio Settings" in the Detailed Setup (you'll have to temporarily switch to the default STV since this setting is not yet available from within SageMC) to 16:9 ?

Dirk

When I read your feedback I immediately tried it out. Went to the default STV and changed the Display Aspect Ratio Settings to 16x9. No effect at all on the UI, remained at 4x3 However, it did mess up my live TV, watching a 4x3 transmission it showed the 4x3 image with left and right a section of the original image removed.
But ... I'm confused on the Display Aspect Ratio Settings - I would expect to have in the circle the 16x9 'screen', which I have .. but 16 Height and 9 Width, so more a 9x16. This seems to coincide with the effect on the Live TV. Is this just a way it's displayed, or is there an issue.

I enclose a screenshot of what I mean. Man, I hope we can get that UI on 16x9 .

[Opus4]

If you highlight the "Done" button on that screen, you'll see the instructions -- you're supposed to select the option that makes the circle & square appear round & square, or use the left/right arrows to make a custom adjustment. In the screen shot, the circle is an oval instead of round, so it isn't set properly for the display used w/that screen shot.

- Andy

[JParedis]

Originally Posted by Opus4

If you highlight the "Done" button on that screen, you'll see the instructions -- you're supposed to select the option that makes the circle & square appear round & square, or use the left/right arrows to make a custom adjustment. In the screen shot, the circle is an oval instead of round, so it isn't set properly for the display used w/that screen shot.

- Andy

Ok, the screenshot was from my PC so that makes sense (I got a 'traditional' PC screen). But on my 16x9 TV it's more or less the same - the oval circle is a bit less oval, but it's the 4x3 which gives a perfect circle.

I got my TV set to automatic ratio selection, so it reacts on the ratio it receives via the scart - it's a European TV and as I read in one of the aspect ratio links in this thread, the MVP should give a signal on a specific scart pin for ratio handling.
This works great with this STVi, my TV switches from 4x3 to 16x9 based on LiveTV or recorded video aspect ratio - and for the few where the ratio is not well defined, this STVi let's me define it. There is about 20 sec delay for the switch, but I can live with that.
However, the UI is by default 4x3 - seems like my TV set does not get the info it needs to switch to 16x9 for the UI .