Tivo not long for this world

[Kanati]

It looks like flags are getting turned on... and I don't remember hearing that this was going to be an option on tivo (though I stopped paying attention after I replaced mine with sage).

This is at there site nice and hidden-like...

Like most television reception equipment, TiVo DVRs recognize Macrovision copy protection technology applied by program providers. This copy protection may be applied to certain limited categories of programming (such as Pay Per View, Video On Demand, DVD or VHS sources) and requires TiVo to respond in a pre-defined manner. Macrovision copy protection rules include:

* Copy Never - This content is not allowed to be recorded by a TiVo DVR.
* 7 Day Unlimited - These programs can be recorded and viewed as many times as you like within 7 days of their original recording date
* 7 Day / 24 Hours - These programs can be stored for up to 7 days but once you begin watching the show, you must complete viewing within 24 hours.

Program providers decide what programs will have Macrovision copy protection. Comments regarding the use of Macrovision copy protection should be directed to the copyright holder applying the copy protection. Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues.

Frankly, when people find that they won't be able to save their favorite programs I don't think they are going to be very happy and they'll start seeking out alternatives. I didn't mind the banner ads while fast forwarding... I didn't mind the other non-intrusive things they did... But there's no way I'll ever activate my tivo again. It'll be on ebay by the end of the week.

[phenixdragon]

I was reading somethign about this a few nights ago. I thought it was just supposed to be for PPV but I guess not. Not a good move by TiVo.

[hvcpvr]

My fears are this may be under presure and you will soon see others bend and do the same. I would not be suprised to see Microsoft with MCE announce or just include this at some time. Which makes me believe that Sage and Snapstream will follow. I hope I'm wrong but one never knows.

[byopvr]

Although I think that this would be (and is) an abomination... it helps to look at the whole story before we read tivo its last rights...

that's not a feature it's a bug but the fact that the capability exists and it can be enabled upstream by the broadcasters is worrysome.

the fact that my Tivo is changing in functionality (for the worse) against my will after I've purchased it is more worrysome... I didn't buy a series 2 tivo for "TV my way... some times... if it's you know... ok with content providers and our legal department and stuff..."

rampy

[phenixdragon]

Awww yes, it is a bug.

I neevr read the details but here is what I saw.

http://news.com.com/TiVo+copy+protec...3-5863529.html

I only skimmed it.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by hvcpvr

My fears are this may be under presure and you will soon see others bend and do the same. I would not be suprised to see Microsoft with MCE announce or just include this at some time. Which makes me believe that Sage and Snapstream will follow. I hope I'm wrong but one never knows.

Smaller companies might be able to sneak by without applying it to analog recordings, but DRM will be required for digital cable recording.

[byopvr]

forgive the self link, but i'm not typing in all these URLS again =P

Speculation on Windows Vista, DRM, CableCARD & 3rd Party DVR

There's some cause for concern.

BTW MCE 2005 already DRM wraps recording, it's just that there hasn't been a major negative/obvious restriction employed by it (like expiring recordings/etc)... YET!

rampy

[Kanati]

It comes down to this... If I'm paying 100 dollars a month for programming from Dish or Insight or wherever... I'm going to record shows and I'm going to keep them. I'm going to edit out commercials. And I will put them in my collection. And there's not a whole hella lot they are going to do about it. If tivo won't let me (ok it was a bug. For now.) then I'll find something that will. If nothing will let me I'll build something that will. I'll hack something that will.

I don't advocate piracy, but these content providers are not going to tell me what I can and can't do with programming that comes into my house that I'm paying for. I spend a lot of money on my video entertainment. I've dropped 5 grand in the past year for a home theatre system (tv, stereo, sage, etc)... I spend a couple grand a year on dvd's... Up til I got Dish last week I was spending upwards of 210 dollars per month (2500/yr) on cable... If I want to record shows... If I want to make archival copies of my dvds... Or anything else in the privacy of my home, that's my business and I dare anyone to come into my home and tell me I can't.

There are few things I feel as strongly about than my video entertainment and my computers. As you can well guess from my ranting above.

[salsbst]

Nobody needs to come into your home, Kanati.

They just need to get rid of all of the analog devices (aka plug the analog hole) and poof -- there goes your ability to determine what is fair use.

We're not far from 1984.

[Jesse]

They just need to get rid of all of the analog devices (aka plug the analog hole) and poof -- there goes your ability to determine what is fair use.

Forgive my ignorance, but does this mean they will simply do away with all composite, svideo and component connections on set top boxs? If so, then what about all the folks (me included) without a tv with digital connections? I clearly dont understand how this works. It would take years to get every tv with analog only connections out of service. How is this going to work with OTA broadcasts??

Can I get a brief rundown, or some links, on how this will all work.

Thanks,

Jesse

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Forgive my ignorance, but does this mean they will simply do away with all composite, svideo and component connections on set top boxs? If so, then what about all the folks (me included) without a tv with digital connections? I clearly dont understand how this works. It would take years to get every tv with analog only connections out of service.

Yes, that's not really likely, S-Video and composite aren't going anywhere soon. However next-gen formats probably won't allow full-res Component. Full-resolution HD going forward is going to require HDCP.

How is this going to work with OTA broadcasts??

You're going to need a STB for OTA within the next few years.

[aperry]

I like how they (Tivo) are blaming the problem on noise in an analog signal. Makes me think the bos must've gotten with the techies and said, "This was a major #$&%*-up, we need to figure out something we can blame this on and call it a bug".

[Jesse]

You're going to need a STB for OTA within the next few years.

Even if I buy a new HDTV with a built in HD receiver?

Yes, that's not really likely, S-Video and composite aren't going anywhere soon. However next-gen formats probably won't allow full-res Component. Full-resolution HD going forward is going to require HDCP.

Does this mean I wont be loosing anything I have got now?

Thanks for the info.

Jesse

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Even if I buy a new HDTV with a built in HD receiver?

No, I was referring to those without integrated HD tuners in their TVs.

Does this mean I wont be loosing anything I have got now?

That's the tricky question isn't it. I suppose it will depend on how much the cable/sat providers are willing to push their customers. From a content (Hollywood) perspective, ideally they'd like everything HDCP/5C protected with NO analog outputs whatsoever. Reality will be different as cable/sat companies won't push it that far as it would alienate their customers. However the first indications of what are to come have been shown. HBO now caries CGMS-A to prevent unauthorized copying, even on S-Video outputs.

My guess is that for the forseable future, non-premium content will be allowed on analog outputs, but it's at least conceivable for premium content to be locked to protected digital outputs sometime in the not too distant future (years maybe not months probably).

That's what I see in my crystal ball at least.

FWIW, take a look at the recent news surround the Vista MCE version and the MS/Nagravision announcement for some idea what's coming on the digital front.

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by stanger89

... next-gen formats probably won't allow full-res Component. Full-resolution HD going forward is going to require HDCP.

There will be some kicking and screaming about component, but the real blood will be shed over VGA, IMO.

[stanger89]

I kind of doubt it, at least in CE space, VGA is an uncommon interconnect. PC space will be interesting how they deal with all the non-HDCP PC monitors.

[salsbst]

Right, PC space.

[Kanati]

Yes, that's not really likely, S-Video and composite aren't going anywhere soon. However next-gen formats probably won't allow full-res Component. Full-resolution HD going forward is going to require HDCP.

I already have a device that falls into that category. I purchased an LG LDA-511 dvd player because it boasted divx compatibility and the ability to upscale dvd's to 720p and 1080i. I didn't find out til I had it home and nicely snuggled into the component rack that copy protected dvd's cannot be upscaled. They will ONLY be shown in 480i or 480p. WTF? How many non copy-protected dvd's do you find outside of people like us that burn our own???

Oh wait. I SEE now... It won't upscale copy protected dvd's with COMPONENT... ONLY WITH HDMI. #%#^#$%^#. My new Mitsubishi DLP is DVI/Component only and my dvi port is taken with the sage box. I'm not going to pull sage off and put it on composite or svga (I don't have a vga->component cable handy) so there won't be any hdmi->component hookups either.

Oh well. We'll see. I'll break that copy protection some day even if I have to wait til I'm 100 years old to do it. Oh yes. It will be mine... It will... be mine...

Now. No more ranting. I'm done for the night.

[lovingHDTV]

Funny all the different responses about Tivo. The first thing I thought was that some engineer at Tivo that does not like the idea of the flag restrictions (they are people just like we are), turned it on to get some attention from the news media. The they can tell the media it is a "bug", turn it off, but have gotten the messege out that the "technology" exists.

There is nothing like deleting someones recordings to get their attention

[dbfresh23]

First thing that comes to my mind is a long beep followed by a message saying this is only a test. I highly doubt that this was a bug, an accident or whatever Tivo wants to call it. I'd bet that they wanted to do a large scale test of the technology to make sure it works should it ever need to be enforced.

I highly doubt that Tivo is going anywhere soon, at most they would just get bought out. They recently inked a deal with comcast to provide dvrs to their customers and even though Directv is no longer going to "push" tivo, they are still going to have a relationship with them and still sell tivo dvrs. The only way that Tivo would go anywhere would be if Directv just up and changed all of their customers to their new dvr they are coming out with - being that ~2/3 of tivo customers are Directv customers.

I honestly don't even see why tivo is so popular. I've used both Tivo and Replaytv and the Replay was much better by far.