TiVo vs Sage

[snoopy]

I have been a DTV customer and TiVo dude for a long time now and have done about all one can do with a TiVo. Since way back in the H-Card emulation days I have been messing with this stuff. I only say that to explain my background. I don't pretend to know the first thing about Sage. It sure looks awesome!

From anyone who has actually used a TiVo (season passes, wishlists, etc) with some success and owned a Tivo for some lenghth of time, I would like to know what the major differences are between the TiVo and Sage.

I have Sage up and running now. What should a person with TiVo background be particularly aware of?

[Kanati]

Well, in tivo, the sliding scale of like and dislike isn't present in sage. And as such, sage really really sucks at it's intelligent recording (like tivo suggestions) until you've spent a TON of time teaching it what you like.

Basically, if you watch a show all the way through, the "watched" flag is set. And when that happens sage thinks you like it. So it will start recording it, and shows LIKE it... And it'll take a sledge hammer worth of "Set Don't Like" on that show and those it thinks you like to get it to stop recording it. Whereas with tivo, if you give a show 3 thumbs down I dont' think I EVER saw it recorded again. For that matter giving a show any thumbs down generally lets tivo know you don't like it and it won't record it. Along those same lines, you can watch live tv all day long on tivo without it affecting it's suggestions or whether you like or dislike a show. Not so with sage. Sage is always recording stuff. Even live tv. So if you watch live tv, the show ends and the watched flag gets set. Blam. You like it. Even if you just forgot to hit stop or put it in sleep mode. Pretty much a horrible implementation of that if you are a channel surfer or like to watch live tv like I do.

Sage doesn't really have a wishlist, but you can add favorites based on keywords, so in essence you can do the same thing.

For the most part, what I mention above is going to be the biggest hurdle in getting used to sage. Other stuff is relatively the same, excepting the occasional bug you have to fiddle with to fix/work around/ignore...

[snoopy]

Thanks Kanati

[jominor]

[QUOTE=Kanati]Well, in tivo, the sliding scale of like and dislike isn't present in sage. And as such, sage really really sucks at it's intelligent recording (like tivo suggestions) until you've spent a TON of time teaching it what you like.

Basically, if you watch a show all the way through, the "watched" flag is set. And when that happens sage thinks you like it. So it will start recording it, and shows LIKE it... And it'll take a sledge hammer worth of "Set Don't Like" on that show and those it thinks you like to get it to stop recording it. Whereas with tivo, if you give a show 3 thumbs down I dont' think I EVER saw it recorded again. For that matter giving a show any thumbs down generally lets tivo know you don't like it and it won't record it. Along those same lines, you can watch live tv all day long on tivo without it affecting it's suggestions or whether you like or dislike a show. Not so with sage. Sage is always recording stuff. Even live tv. So if you watch live tv, the show ends and the watched flag gets set. Blam. You like it. Even if you just forgot to hit stop or put it in sleep mode. Pretty much a horrible implementation of that if you are a channel surfer or like to watch live tv like I do.
QUOTE]

I like the fact that Sage thinks that because I watched a show that I may like similar programming. Sage has found things that I like BECAUSE I watch something it it recorded other stuff.

In addition, I like the way Sage tries to find stuff that I MIGHT like. IMO, Tivo's method seems like more work. Also, if I don't like something, I go the the additional airings, mark the shows as "Don't Like" and it has done the trick for me.

So I guess the question is, which approach do you prefer? Being forced to tell the systems that you like a show, or having the system find stuff you might enjoy.

My wife likes Ice skating. For three seasons now, Sage has recording skating events automatically using IR because we watched skating. I didn't have to do anything. It has also found some older shows that I've enjoyed because I watched some sci-fi.

I say "Go out and find stuff. If I don't like it, I'll mark it."

Also, since Sage records, you'll never have the situation where you wished you had caught saved the show, but oops! You're 20 minutes into it.

Don't forget intangibles that may not appeal to you, like adding components. I've scaled up from 1 tuner and a single drive to 3 tuners and 3 drives. 1 tuner and all the drives are USB based, so I don't even power down the system. I just plug it in and go.

And now, in my daughter's playroom, I took and old PIII 500mhz laptop and an 19" monitor and installed Sage client with an 802.11g card. Now, this machine can also watch TV and movies.

[snoopy]

That's helpful jominor... I am glad you can mark a show as dislike. It didn't sound like you could for a moment. I'm definitely sold. I am sure I will get used to it over TiVo.

[salsbst]

Actually I believe that partially watched shows also go into the intelligent recording calculations (and count as a like -- but that like may be less strong of a like than a fully watched show -- I'm not sure).

[aperry]

For what it's worth, if you use Cayars STV, when you get to the end of a recording (or for that matter tell it to delete a recording), you get several options:

Cancel
Delete, Watched, Like
Delete, Watched, Not Like
Delete, Not Watched, Like
Delete, Not Watched, Not Like

I would assume that this helps out with the "if I've watched it, I like it" problem. Would not help with the watching LiveTV and having everything marked as watched/like.

[Kanati]

IMO, Tivo's method seems like more work.

It's not. Much easier and the sliding scale is very nice.

Also, if I don't like something, I go the the additional airings, mark the shows as "Don't Like" and it has done the trick for me.

A lot of extra work there... Tivo, just click three thumbs down and poof... No more worries that it will get recorded.

I like the fact that Sage thinks that because I watched a show that I may like similar programming.

Yes, that's a good thing, but the fact that it gives weight to shows that you watch on live tv as well is bad... Forget to hit stop or put sage into sleep mode just once and you just screwed up months worth of training the intelligent recordings...

Also, since Sage records, you'll never have the situation where you wished you had caught saved the show, but oops! You're 20 minutes into it.

Tivo buffers 30 minutes of live tv. If you missed more than that, you aren't getting it, but in order to get the same from sage you'd have to have left live tv on, or want to watch it anyway... I see no loss there over what tivo offers. Only that I wouldn't have to hit the record button as I would on tivo.

Don't forget intangibles that may not appeal to you, like adding components. I've scaled up from 1 tuner and a single drive to 3 tuners and 3 drives. 1 tuner and all the drives are USB based, so I don't even power down the system. I just plug it in and go.

That is definitely a plus

[snoopy]

It definitely seems worth the trouble but you are right, it's ALOT of trouble to get it to work right. Perhaps we could chat sometime Kanati. I am using Cayars and my MSN handle is tivosnoopy@hotmail.com. I'll be around in and out over the next few weeks I'm sure. This thing is a bugger to get used to. Now the remote and girder are a whole new can of worms.

[Kanati]

I think it must take people like us, snoopy, that have used tivo for years (I still have a series 1 sony sv2000 or whatever it's model was) to fully appreciate the beauty and simplicity (yet powerful as well) of the tivo interface.

My MSN handle is ummmmm... kanati@insightbb.com I think... though I'm much more often on icq (#2688822... yep... 2 million. )

Kanati

[flavius]

I closed my (quite old) TiVo account only recently. And I'd never thought, I'd ever do that.

But it wasn't Sage or BTV which I have used for years.
It was my new plasma HDTV. For less money than I had to pay for TiVo I can get a dual tuner HDTV set-top box with a 120 gig harddrive.

The TiVo interface is a classic, and I suppose - we'll see it again - once the contract with comcast is bearing fruit.

[jominor]

[QUOTE=Kanati]It's not. Much easier and the sliding scale is very nice.

[QUOTE=Kanati]

Says you. For me, I think it is more work to tell the systems I like something. Sage's IR attempts to find stuff without my intervention. If a title doesn't like interesting, I don't watch it. If I have to do something, that is more work than doing nothing.

I'd rather the system look for something.

Originally Posted by Kanati

A lot of extra work there... Tivo, just click three thumbs down and poof... No more worries that it will get recorded.

Shrug. Again, I guess that depends on your perspective. I've been rewarded more than bothered. I only mark stuff as "Don't like" that I really don't want. Most IR stuff, I just ignore.

Clicking is more work than ignoring! If you(not your personally), but someone does not like having the excess shows, I would definitely say that IR is not for you.

Originally Posted by Kanati

Yes, that's a good thing, but the fact that it gives weight to shows that you watch on live tv as well is bad... Forget to hit stop or put sage into sleep mode just once and you just screwed up months worth of training the intelligent recordings...

Well, I'm not quite sure if one evening will ruin months, but certainly it can be misleading to Sage! However, how many people using Sage really forget to put it to sleep? Most likely, its like turning of the TV.

Originally Posted by Kanati

Tivo buffers 30 minutes of live tv. If you missed more than that, you aren't getting it, but in order to get the same from sage you'd have to have left live tv on, or want to watch it anyway... I see no loss there over what tivo offers. Only that I wouldn't have to hit the record button as I would on tivo.

I've watched shows that were 1 hour and at the end, I wanted to keep it. With Sage, I hit manual record or move it to the library, how with Tivo, it seems I'm out of luck.

There's never a loss until you actually lose something.

Originally Posted by Kanati

That is definitely a plus

Indeed. And on the flip side, I've sure Tivo has never locked up. I have a problem when Sage about twice a week, locks up when I fast-forwarding. I tend to lock at it as a downtime of at most 5 mins per week compared to 3 tuners running 24/7.

It all depends on your needs.

[Kanati]

I think I saw my tivos lock up once in the many years I had them.

I think the best example of tivo's suggestions vs sage IR is that once tivo has learned what I like, it records things I probably would like to watch. Even if I don't have time to do so. But sage records CONSTANTLY. And if it can't find something it thinks I want to watch it will STILL record SOMETHING. With tivo I might come home and find 3 or 4 suggestions having been recorded that day. With sage, I'm constantly clearing out stuff because it just can't sit there and twiddle it's thumbs. It's ALWAYS recording something. And a good portion of it I'm not interested in at all so I either delete the files off of the drives (I have them mapped up on my network) or I have to go in and delete them through sage. Tivo would actually go "nope. There's really nothing he'd want to watch here... I'll just sit and wait til something does come on he might want to watch."

I doubt I'll ever like sage's IR. But if it works for you, then hey... it's all good. I'm actually looking real hard at gbpvr right now, but it doesn't have any suggestion type recording at all excepting a beta plugin that I don't think people trust real well right now. Uses beysian logic to determine if someone will like a show and adds it to the recording schedule.

Ah well... I have faith someone will eventually come up with a software pvr that does just exactly what I want it to do... Just might not be in MY lifetime.

[Opus4]

SageTV's IR will stop recording once you have things trained enough. I am currently using 3 tuners and, amazing as it sounds, I have blank spots in my schedule. There is no need to delete IR recordings, unless you _really_ insist on managing everything (ok, so I do that) -- IR recordings are among the first shows to be deleted when more room is needed for a new recording. The deletion order is covered in one of the appendices in the manual.

- Andy

[Kanati]

That's good to know...

Like you said though... I'm a control freak. I like to see that I have at least 100 gig free, and that I only have shows I want in the list... and... Ok, I'm a little neurotic I guess.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Opus4

SageTV's IR will stop recording once you have things trained enough. I am currently using 3 tuners and, amazing as it sounds, I have blank spots in my schedule. There is no need to delete IR recordings, unless you _really_ insist on managing everything (ok, so I do that) -- IR recordings are among the first shows to be deleted when more room is needed for a new recording. The deletion order is covered in one of the appendices in the manual.

- Andy

I too have blank spots. No late night infomercials for example. I too delete stuff from time to time. However, I don't always mark as don't like. For example, the system records Cheers and Fraiser. Every once in a while, I watch one. Heck, the system records ST:TNG and I watch about one a week.

I'm actually going to add a 160gig I got for $40(after rebates) to my 3x200. I just need to pick up another enclosure.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by jominor

However, how many people using Sage really forget to put it to sleep? Most likely, its like turning of the TV.

I don't forget to put Sage to sleep, but can't. I like to have the news playing when I go to sleep, and my TV has a slep function where I can tell the TV to turn off in an hour or two. Unfortunately, There isn't (or I don't know about) a way to tell Sage to go to sleep in an hour or so. So, I just let Sage stay on all night.

I don't use IR since I already record too much stuff as it is, but, it would be nice to be able to keep Sage from loading up its database with stuff that it records when it could be sleeping.

[sfisher]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

I don't forget to put Sage to sleep, but can't. I like to have the news playing when I go to sleep, and my TV has a slep function where I can tell the TV to turn off in an hour or two. Unfortunately, There isn't (or I don't know about) a way to tell Sage to go to sleep in an hour or so. So, I just let Sage stay on all night.

Actually, the sticky note at the top of this forum called "Utilities for use with SageTV " seems to have a sleep timer utility available...

[ke6guj]

You know, now that you mentioned it, I have seen that utility before. I even had a copy saved in my download folder Just forgot about it when I was still working on getting my Sage system setup.

Now I just need to figure out how to set it up.

Thanks, Jack