US appeals court tosses FCC's broadcast flag rule

[salsbst]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=8412131

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal appeals court on Friday vacated a Federal Communications Commission a rule designed to limit people from sending copies of digital television programs over the Internet.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said the FCC had "exceeded the scope of its delegated authority" with the 2003 rule.

The FCC has said copyright protections were needed to help speed the adoption of digital television, which offers higher quality signals.

My greatest concern is that the DC Appeals court is not always in line with the Supreme Court.

For now, though, I think I can stop collecting HDTV cards that I can't even use, yet.

[mikejaner]

http://news.com.com/Court+yanks+down...7719&subj=news

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by mikejaner

http://news.com.com/Court+yanks+down...7719&subj=news

Wow that's great news!

Granted, the battle isn't over yet, but it will be all up hill now for the MPAA. I guess the real test is if we start to see more/upgraded HDTV capture devices or perhaps an analog component capture card.

[rotaryracer]

Saw this on HTPC News - could it be?

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/05/06...won_the_b.html

Now, let's get to work on integrating NON-FLAGGED hi-def!

[Opus4]

OK, I moved this thread to the General forum & then moved it back to its original location & left a link in the General forum... maybe that will help others notice that this one already exists.

- Andy

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by Opus4

OK, I moved this thread to the General forum & then moved it back to its original location & left a link in the General forum... maybe that will help others notice that this one already exists.

- Andy

Does that link you created in the General forum fall under fair usage?

[dragon]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Does that link you created in the General forum fall under fair usage?

Only if he broadcasts it without a flag!

[dvd_maniac]

Does the broadcast flag mentioned here pertain to the change that is/was suppose to happen to all tuners made after june?

[eobiont]

Now that the structure is in place, can't Disney/ABC/ESPN and VIACOM or any of the others just say to the cable companies either honor the 5C flag or we won't sell you our programming?

Do you think Time WARNER cable is going to favor the consumer or its parrent company? The technology is already in place. For instance, my cable provider (Mediacom) already is blocking all programming on digital cable and all HDTV except for locals as 5C=1. There is no law in place saying that they have to do this, they just are, and I don't see this as changing any of that.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by dvd_maniac

Does the broadcast flag mentioned here pertain to the change that is/was suppose to happen to all tuners made after june?

Yes.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by eobiont

Now that the structure is in place, can't Disney/ABC/ESPN and VIACOM or any of the others just say to the cable companies either honor the 5C flag or we won't sell you our programming?

Cable (and Sat) is and always has been an entirely different issue, it has nothing to do with the ATSC flag. Those are closed systems that you subscribe to, and are therefore subject to the whim of the providers as to what you recieve, and what you can do with it. The only restriction on their practices, is that they have to carry local broadcasts, and they have to be made available in the most basic package without extra fees.

[eobiont]

Is the decision to 5C=1 all digital programming left up to the cable provider or is it negociated with the program provider?

From a logical review, I think it has to be only the cable company's doing since, with my provider, all analog stations, including ESPN are passed over the firewire, but ESPNClassic, a digital program is not. I would think that if it were Disney saying that their programming must be 5C protected, then they would demand it on all their channels. That being said, what does MediaCom have to gain by 5Cing all the programming?

Are there cable companies that do not 5C all digital programming? Who are they?

Do you think the 5C system that big cable is using for rights management would have been put in place if the FCC had not mandated it for broadcast?

[stanger89]

FYI, I started a poll to see where we get our Favorites from:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=11362

[eobiont]

Here's another thing I just thought of.

When congress is debating stricter gun control, those opposed say, "We don't need stricter gun control. There are pleanty of laws already on the books. All we need to do is better enforce the laws we already have."

These same congresspeople, when faced with IP piracy, say we need to enact more laws to try and prevent piracy. The US already has very restrictive copyright laws. Why don't they feel that all that needs to be done is better enforce the laws we already have?

[Crazedz]

Originally Posted by eobiont

Now that the structure is in place, can't Disney/ABC/ESPN and VIACOM or any of the others just say to the cable companies either honor the 5C flag or we won't sell you our programming?

Do you think Time WARNER cable is going to favor the consumer or its parrent company? The technology is already in place. For instance, my cable provider (Mediacom) already is blocking all programming on digital cable and all HDTV except for locals as 5C=1. There is no law in place saying that they have to do this, they just are, and I don't see this as changing any of that.

The broadcast flag as Stanger has said is different from what your experiencing. What your refering to is the provider encrypting or otherwise blocking content from comming across systems or hardware rather that aren't theirs(my view on why they do it) as well as other reasons. Thats why HD makers have been trying to perfect QAM or get cablecards introduced to allow or maybe force the providers to allow other hardware to access the content as well. The Broadcast flag is mean't to encrypt the shows once they enter a HD tuner so it can only be viewed in HD on the device or PC that recorded it. And theirin lie's the problem with the FCC trying to enforce it.

As to the the Boradcast flag being shot down, Im not suprised (well ok maybe a little) the FCC was clearly outside their bounds on this as the "BF" was to effect the transmissions once they left the airwaves and entered home devices. When the broadcast leaves the airwaves it's no longer in the FCC's realm of control they aren't supposed to touch it or have any control over it whatsoever anymore. Thats what they were trying to do and thats why the courts shot it down. Of course the MPAA can still try to get the "BF" done but it will have to be done without the FCC because they don't have the athoritah! They could pay off congress (the MPAA wouldn't be the first to do it) to pass a bill to get the "BF" but once it comes up in congress it will enter the public radar and I don't think that the public would support it at that point. You try telling the people that you want all HD devices to encrypt shows in HD so they can only view it on the device that recorded it or it gets dropped down to a lower quality and see how they respond.

Wait a minute your telling me that i have to pay big bucks for a HD set and a HD tuner plus a HD recorder and HD content from service providers and then i wont be able to see the shows i record while im away from home and want to view on my laptop or other portable device won't be in the same HD quality it was broadcast at? Just watch the excrament hit the fan then.

I mean really what would be the point for them to pay all that money to goto HD if they can't view HD shows in the same HD quality it was recored at? Or worse viewing it in SD, might just as well stay with SD or just have a digital tuner on a SD set for all the good it would do the average consumer. I don't have an HD set in the livingroom yet (have been thinking off and on about getting one) to view my sage HD recordings in HD but with the "BF" their would be no incentive for me to even concider it any longer as what would be the point to it? I might as well save the money for other things and keep my current tv set or just get a cheapo digital set at least i wouldn't feel so cheated viewing the shows in SD that way.

It's good that this will now be an uphill battle for the MPAA as it was a bad idea from the getgo trying to encrypt the shows to only view on the device that recorded it is a terrible way to stop piracy from a public standpoint, This isn't the soviet union or china for petesake. My view on this is if they have to put the public through all this crap just to put their content out for public entertainment then they shouldn't even bother offering it for public consumption in the first place. Theirs a lot better ways for people to entertain themselves without all the BS and many are free as well as public domain.

I just don't see how they expect the public to just sit back and take rear end actions like this without turning on them like a rabid pitbull. I know i wouldn't and would choose not to buy or not view anything that's going to be this restrictive and try to cripple or take away fair use like this.

[eobiont]

The broadcast flag as Stanger has said is different from what your experiencing. What your refering to is the provider encrypting or otherwise blocking content from comming across systems or hardware rather that aren't theirs(my view on why they do it) as well as other reasons. Thats why HD makers have been trying to perfect QAM or get cablecards introduced to allow or maybe force the providers to allow other hardware to access the content as well. The Broadcast flag is mean't to encrypt the shows once they enter a HD tuner so it can only be viewed in HD on the device or PC that recorded it. And theirin lie's the problem with the FCC trying to enforce it.

Well it is and it isn't. My cable company uses the same 5C technology as the broadcast flag does to tell my STB how to treat the signal. If I had a DVCR that was 5C compliant, I would be able to record programming in the same way that I could if the broadcast flag were set copy once.

For all intents and purposes the cable company is utilizing the broadcast flag technology to mark recordings - whether you want to refer to this as THE broadcast flag of not. The question I wonder is if the Cable and programming providers and Motorola and other set top boxes would have been able to get together to hammer out a standard without the FCC choosing and mandating a technology.

What I am saying is that the die is already cast. Motorola is already producing 5C compliant STBs and the cable companies have already invested inthe technology to mark programming as 5C. I wonder if they are permitted to add 5C encryption to the broadcast channels they carry

[Naylia]

Originally Posted by eobiont

I wonder if they are permitted to add 5C encryption to the broadcast channels they carry

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is, no. Comcast in my area has clearly delineated the content and none of the broadcast content is 5c encrypted. All my other digital (except PBS) and HD channels are encrypted.

From what I read, the flags can not be used on the local broadcast channels. It's public air waves, fair use thing. Since they're just retransmitting publicly available content they shouldn't be 5cing it.

I'm pretty sure it's also not the decision of a cable company whether something is 5C'd. They are responsible for implementing it correctly but the channel itself decides whether or not to be encrypted (hence why all forms of PBS should always be avaiable)

[eobiont]

Originally Posted by Naylia

I'm pretty sure it's also not the decision of a cable company whether something is 5C'd. They are responsible for implementing it correctly but the channel itself decides whether or not to be encrypted (hence why all forms of PBS should always be avaiable)

I am pretty sure it is the cable company's decision since some cable company's set to boxes do 5C encrypt programming and some do not. Also channels from the same provider are both encrypted and not. For instance ESPN - not encrypted, ESPNClassic - encrypted.

What cable companies do and don't excrypt programming I wonder?

[Crazedz]

Here's the latest on the Broadcast Flag front.

Dan Glickman Why the broadcast flag should go forward

And

Jim Burger Why the broadcast flag won't work

Here i thought the magic was already dead but i guess according to Glickman it's not, Wow who knew?

[cclayton]

I thought this would be of interest... I didn't see it posted anywhere yet:

Broadcast Flag Nixed

Enjoy!