SageV3.0 or MCE2005?

[mlbdude]

MCE has been very stable for me but I do not use ATSC tuners. Sage is also very stable. For clients I use the XBox extenders which are pretty cheap - at least if you have an Xbox . Since MS still won't sell MCE to the general public and only to OEM's definitely indicates it is more sensitive to installation issues as well.

[MonocularJack]

I used Sage for about 8 months before switching over to MCE. The biggest reason was the extender support since I didn't feel like spending $500 on a Sage client that looked good in my living room and the old Dell tower that was acting as the server definitly didn't fly with the wife. I have a pretty simple setup though: one tuner with coax cable input and S-Video out via the X-Box extender.

Both were highly stable for me, even on a 1.4 Celeron with only 256meg of memory.

As a side note, I don't mind the DVR-MS format. It's fairly easy to pull the MPEG file out of it and it is not a locked or closed format, it is fully documented on the MSDN along with all sorts of fun things you can do to it. Since the new beta of VideoReDo supports the format and Nero has for awhile I have no issues.

I really liked Sage + SageMCE and if there was an extender-like concept for it that didn't look as Mickey Mouse as the current MVP does I might even switch back.

[mlbdude]

I actually find the MVP client to be as good or better than my XBox Sage client. Plus it cost much less . Both are crappy clients though as you don't have full file format freedom.

[MonocularJack]

Did I miss a press release, there is a XBox Sage client? As in I can use my XBox to stream from Sage? Now you're just teasing...

I'm weird. Since I have an open media cabinet I'd really like my extender to be the same width and depth as my other components, a bit like LinkSys and HP did with their MCE Extenders. I know it's just wasted space inside the case... hmm, which just made me think they should create an optional "shell" for the MVP to hide in both black and silver finishes to match existing systems. Ahh well, it's fun to dream *grin*.

On a tangent what about the MVP do you like over the Extender?

[pcostanza]

How do you get MCE2005 to install on your pc? I thought you had to buy it with a media center pc. I'm not accusing you at all, just curious for myself.

[blade]

Originally Posted by pcostanza

How do you get MCE2005 to install on your pc? I thought you had to buy it with a media center pc. I'm not accusing you at all, just curious for myself.

You can purchase MCE just like any other operating system and it installs the same. Here's a link to it at newegg, you can purchase it pretty much anywhere.

http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16832102311

[MonocularJack]

Originally Posted by pcostanza

How do you get MCE2005 to install on your pc? I thought you had to buy it with a media center pc. I'm not accusing you at all, just curious for myself.

You can also get it via an MSDN subscription, which I invested in since I'm a software developer (and it makes a great tax write off). Not that I'd recommend that route just for MCE since it's something like $2,199 a year for the level I have.

[mlbdude]

Originally Posted by MonocularJack

Did I miss a press release, there is a XBox Sage client? As in I can use my XBox to stream from Sage? Now you're just teasing...

I'm weird. Since I have an open media cabinet I'd really like my extender to be the same width and depth as my other components, a bit like LinkSys and HP did with their MCE Extenders. I know it's just wasted space inside the case... hmm, which just made me think they should create an optional "shell" for the MVP to hide in both black and silver finishes to match existing systems. Ahh well, it's fun to dream *grin*.

On a tangent what about the MVP do you like over the Extender?

Woops, strike that and reverse . MVP Sage client, MCE XBox client. Both perform a bit slow, but I like the size and price of the MVP the best. It is nice how I can use any STV through it too .

[aperry]

Originally Posted by MonocularJack

You can also get it via an MSDN subscription, which I invested in since I'm a software developer (and it makes a great tax write off). Not that I'd recommend that route just for MCE since it's something like $2,199 a year for the level I have.

Or, for quite a bit cheaper, you can subscribe to the Microsoft Action Pack (if you qualify). Unless you find a deal (like the $99 deal I got in on), it is $299 for the first year, $199 each year thereafter.

Here's a link showing what you get.

[ben_gb]

Out of interest, does MCE 2005 support the model of having a central server system doing all the recording (e.g. it's hidden in a cupboard), and then allowing FULL control from an extender/client, like you can with SageClient?

On the whole, I've been happy with Sage, and it is a good option for US-based setups (which is where I currently use it).

However, I am currently planning a couple of systems for the UK, and the lack of official support for things like UK TV listings, digital terrestrial cards do make me concerned. I need it to run reliably, without constant hand-holding, as I am not always around to notice if, for example, the TV listings download is failing. My two US setups both are pretty stable. The server process does crash every few days (with java errors), but with the service recovery it's not really too much of a problem. Other than that, I can now leave the systems alone for a month or two at a time and they just keep on running.

The other area which I think Sage needs to work at is support for other extenders, such as the Buffalo media player. The MVP really doesn't cut it as it doesn't support the same range of formats that Sage does (and it's still not 'officially' supported, anyway).

Anyway, these are some of the issues which are tempting me to consider MCE 2005 (or other options), though I'd really rather not have to!

Regards,
Ben

[dragon]

Dont forget to consider all the incompatibilities of MCE. Someone already mentioned the DVD-MS format, which requires recoding if you want to use if for any mpg purposes. Also, does your favorite mpg editor support DVD-MS fomat, or will you have to convert to mpg just to cut out the commercials?

A big issue for me is disk space. I have two drives in my HTPC and three across the network. MCE only supports one partition -- no multiple partitions, no multiple video-recording dives, no video import library, no storage across the network.

Take a look at the comparison between WinMCE vs SageTV at http://www.terrystockdale.com/htpc/w...s_sagetv.shtml .

[ben_gb]

Dragon, thanks for your comments.

Hm...maybe MCE wouldn't be such a great move, after all - it does seem limited. The storage issue would be a showstopper. I would imagine that a work-around or fix for this limitation would appear at some point, as there doesn't seem to be any logic to it.

Ultimately though I would really like to stay with Sage, but it is frustrating that the pace of development, and and things like the integration of new tuner cards seems so slow. It's really great that people in the user community have managed to develop add-ons to cover some of the missing features, but the information and effort transfer often appears very one-way. How long will people continue to put the effort in, when information, feedback and tools from Frey appear not to be very forthcoming?

It also is concerning that the forum traffic here seems to be reducing (going by the number of new posts that come up between my visits) - are users moving on to other options? I suppose it could be a good sign: fewer problems... but it could also mean people are losing interest. The 'buzz' about Sage seems to have reduced. And now there are very few STVs being actively developed: another sign of peope drifting away?

Anyway, I hadn't intended for this to become a rant... it's just very frustrating that a product which was so innovative and having perhaps the best technical foundation, appears to have lost it's way (at least from where I'm sitting). I hope I'm wrong, but the signs don't look good!

Regards,
Ben

[dragon]

Originally Posted by ben_gb

Ultimately though I would really like to stay with Sage, but it is frustrating that the pace of development, and and things like the integration of new tuner cards seems so slow. It's really great that people in the user community have managed to develop add-ons to cover some of the missing features, but the information and effort transfer often appears very one-way. How long will people continue to put the effort in, when information, feedback and tools from Frey appear not to be very forthcoming?

I look at the facts a little differently: I bought a copy of SageTV version 1.4 in April, 2004. Since that time, there has been a major release (v2.0), minor releases v2.1 and v2.2 and a number of other tweaks (current is v2.2.8). Meanwhile, SageTV has made beta copies of the versions available -- v2.2 release was after about 20 betas & release candidates.

Has Microsoft released, even to a limited few, the ability to revise their MCE interface and add functionality? Has BeyondTV?

If you look over the features coming from the user-created STV's, many of these features are in later versions of SageTV.

It also is concerning that the forum traffic here seems to be reducing (going by the number of new posts that come up between my visits) - are users moving on to other options? I suppose it could be a good sign: fewer problems... but it could also mean people are losing interest. The 'buzz' about Sage seems to have reduced. And now there are very few STVs being actively developed: another sign of peope drifting away?

Not drifting away. Quiet. Satisfied. Problems solved. Waiting for v3.0. Until Frey is ready to open the beta program on v3.0, who is going to be really interested in developing more changes? Even the STV developers will wait to make sure their NEXT efforts will work with 3.0.

Anyway, I hadn't intended for this to become a rant... it's just very frustrating that a product which was so innovative and having perhaps the best technical foundation, appears to have lost it's way (at least from where I'm sitting). I hope I'm wrong, but the signs don't look good!

Regards,
Ben

Sit a little further back, think about all the changes in SageTV over the last year, and remember that 3.0 has been announced as just around the corner. Who is going to put significant effort into an STV at this point, until they know if what features will be in v3, what the interface looks like, and whether their STV efforts will work in v3? My system is stable until that happens.

[Crazedz]

Huh MCE!?!

I tried MCE out at Bestbuy and i didn't like it the GUI was Gacky! it just looked like crap im sorry but it does. I just never got why anybody wanted to make Sage look like it.

Also MCE has DRM not that it's all bad i guess, everybody keeps telling me that future sage will have to have at least some DRM for cablecard but MCE's level of DRM allows networks to block recording of content by flipping a switch. According to a video interview of the heads of the MCE dept that was linked off of Neowin HBO has already flipped that switch to block it's shows from being recorded.

Not that i watch HBO or anything but any DVR that wont record broadcasted stations for whatever reason is of no real use as a DVR. Why would anybody want to have a DVR that wont record certain shows on certain stations just because that station or network decided that if you don't watch the show live while it's being aired (By their schedule) that you shouldn't be able to watch it at all? I mean wasn't this the point of a VCR and later DVR to allow you to watch your shows on your schedule not the networks?

Sorry but thats one of the reasons i don't consider MCE to be a DVR or rather not a usefull one and the ugly interface is just another strike against it. Then add to it the limited multi tuner support that was cobbled onto it and not well i might add and it becomes even harder to compare MCE alongside sage. Beyond might have it's problems and some greedy owners as well but at least beyond can work with more than a couple tuners, Yeah you gotta pay for the extra tuners and i've railed against that before but at least you can get more tuners in beyond than in MCE. Plus it doesn't block shows, So for these reasons i consider Beyond to be closer to sages level than MCE which just can't compare to even beyond let alone sage.

I know Sagetv still has it's problems and hasn't improved in the right places fast enough for some or hasn't implemented some features that others may want yet but even without thoughs features sage is by far superior to MCE. I know HD hasn't been worked on by Sage in current versions but then even MS has had problems getting HD tuners working in MCE the Fusion line of tuners comes to mind. And MS started working on HD support early last year but only had a few HD tuners working by years end and most of them were still very buggy. I know i was pushing for sage to start getting HD support in sage i still do want native support for HD in sage but considering that the market is right now kinda in flux, The upcomming broadcast flag and the new line of HD tuners that will come as a result of it. Yes their are a number of people that have the current line of tuners but after the june they can't be sold not by the manufactures and not by the people who bought them already. So that makes the current crop a limited number that will reduce over time so it's best i guess to let HD support for the current crop be developed by thoughs end users that have the time and make internal support for them later when they have been fully fleshed out. That allows Freys to work on debugging and improving other parts of the Sagetv/ Sagerecorder systems. Thoughs who have worked on adding support for HD and other features have done great work and have added a lot of value to sage. I can tell you Stealth was able to get Fusion tuners as well as Avermedia 180MCE tuner working in sage under his HDNE plugin and it didn't take him a whole year to do it.

Of course the fact that better BDA drivers were needed for the cards had played a part in slowing MS's attempts to support the fusion card as well as others over the last year but that just serves to underscore the fact that even if freys had started working on HD support in a dedicated way early last year it would still have taken just about as long as it has taken MCE and Beyond as well as others to implament HD support for the cards that are now working. Only now because of having spent so much time on that other parts of sage would now be further behind where they are now. More than likely 3.0 wouldn't be ready for beta till years end or later because of it. Weighing everything i reluctently myself have to say Freys has taken the proper route with HD not that i like it but it was the best way to go.

[mlbdude]

I love how people try to compare apples to oranges . The user base that MCE and Sage go after are not the same people! Sure there are some crossovers, but generally they each have a separate niche in the market. What is happening though is that MCE is so popular and gaining so many users that Frey has no choice but to take notice and try and make inroads into MCE's market. I wonder what percentage of PVR users are geeks compared to general users? I wonder if you can even weigh that yet on the PC side? In the end it does not matter which one is better. It just matters which one is still available.

Also, anyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is a reason the MCE interface is the most copied UI out there.

[silkshadow]

Also, anyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is a reason the MCE interface is the most copied UI out there.

Please don't take any offense mlbdude because I mean none at all, but do you mean the menu-driven UI or the WMP backend? Because the UI is a rip from a dozen different setups that were around way before MCE (like Tivo for example). And the WMP backend hasn't been copied at all AFAIK. Probably because its not very good . Though, I understand, many people like it. However, I contend that it would be a far, far smaller group of people if it wasn't for the fact that millions (billions?) of people's first exposure to a media system was WMP (its nice being a monopoly ).

Otherwise I agree with you. Its apples and oranges. Now lets say we were able to merge Meedio+Sage+girder into one product and they came included with all the avalible plugins/stvs/gmls fully configured (lets call this product Silkshadow ). Add to that a similar packaging system that MCE has such that it comes with Windows OS plus the same support one gets with MCE plus USB-uirt and a remote. Thats not so far fecthed since MCE is really just an app on top of Windows with a lot of OS hooks since the MCE developer has access to the full Windows code. I mean one can take MCE and put it on top of any flavor of the Windows OS and thats pretty much the definition of a windows application. Finally, lets put Silkshadow and MCE at the same price point.

Ok now we're comparing like to like. Which product would the masses go for? I contend they would still choose MCE solely on the M$ branding and marketing. And all of us here would choose Silkshadow. Though Silkshadow would suck all the fringe buyers who have at least considered the PVR alternatives into Silkshadow's camp. These two products have different consumer bases IMO. Of course creating silkshadow would kill any competion in this space. I think even most of the Myth users would probably pick silkshadow up as well besides the frugal and anti-MS crowd.

[Jesse]

The user base that MCE and Sage go after are not the same people! Sure there are some crossovers, but generally they each have a separate niche in the market.

I think that all purveyors of PVR software believe this. I have a hunch that it is not true. No one but a geek would buy either of these products. STB PVR's work so well that the average consumer is not going to go looking for anything else. I think the search that leads to Sagetv/MCE/Beyond/Meedio etc. starts with folks wanting a pc based jukebox. Certainly many of these people just install (or have installed) an appropriate sound card and plug their pc into their receiver, but I think the research leads those that are geeks at heart to become intrigued by all the possibilities. I wonder how many people are taken out of the Sagetv/MCE/Beyond/Meedio market by the ipod and its ability (with certain additional hardware) to do the whole music thing either on the road or at home?

As far as the GUI is concerned, it's just a Coke or Pepsi question.

My $0.02

Jesse

[DFranch]

Originally Posted by Jesse

I think that all purveyors of PVR software believe this. I have a hunch that it is not true. No one but a geek would buy either of these products. STB PVR's work so well that the average consumer is not going to go looking for anything else. I think the search that leads to Sagetv/MCE/Beyond/Meedio etc. starts with folks wanting a pc based jukebox. Certainly many of these people just install (or have installed) an appropriate sound card and plug their pc into their receiver, but I think the research leads those that are geeks at heart to become intrigued by all the possibilities. I wonder how many people are taken out of the Sagetv/MCE/Beyond/Meedio market by the ipod and its ability (with certain additional hardware) to do the whole music thing either on the road or at home?

As far as the GUI is concerned, it's just a Coke or Pepsi question.

My $0.02

Jesse

Actually I got into building my own PVR because I had a Tivo and wanted more than 1 tuner without having to pay the monthly fee for multiple units. the Jukebox functionallity is just a bonus to me.

You are right about only a geek would take on this project. their are too many out of the box options available for your average person to build a Sage box. My brother wants me to build one for him. I told him to keep his DVR from Time Warner, I don't need the headache.

[Crazedz]

I choose cok....... No peps....... No cok..... Err uh wait which one isn't MCE again?

Edit:
MLDude not to split hairs or start an argument or anything but i seam to recall a post earlier in this thread where you made an apples to oranges comparison as well and called MCE the winner over Sage.

I think MCE wins hands down right now - but that depends on your environment. For geeks MCE is not a great choise. For the typical household that uses a PVR though Sage does not hold a candle to what MCE offers.

Another example is me . I am pretty much a geek/power user. At first I was put off by some features missing from MCE. After a bit of time using the product though, I realized how well thought out it was and did not miss any of the Sage features. However, I still use Sage on my personal PC so it has something going for it .

If Frey can wrap all the Sage goodness into a package that uses and presents as well as MCE they will have a real winner.

Besides the thread header says Sage3.0 or MCE2005 which kinda lends itself to a comparison of the two. Apples to oranges or not the comparison was made and i just added my feelings on the matter as did you as have others.

[mayamaniac]

We're all early adopters of these HTPC/PVR/DVR stuffs. We're hobbyists, not average people. So we like SageTV because it offers more features for us to play with. For average people, they should get Tivo, not MCE. MCE is for people who haven't heard or tried SageTV. :P

Anyway, with HDTV being the next big thing, which ever product that support it best will be the king. And I don't meant half ass support like MCE, but well integrated HDTV all-in-one package. Till then, us hobbyists will continue to stick with SageTV.