Using SageClient on another continent

[leif]

Hello there!

I currently live in the United States, but I'm moving back to Europe very soon.

I've realized that I'm gonna miss american TV a lot, and this gave me an idea.

I'm going to leave a computer with a capture card, satellite receiver and DSL line. I've been told that SageTV would be ideally suited for this, but I have yet to actually try it myself.

SageClient should work fine for scheduling things across the internet (VPN), but there won't be enough bandwidth to actually stream video.

Is there perhaps a way for SageClient to run in a non-realtime mode?

For example - if the DSL line has 768kbps upstream, and SageClient was continuously downloading shows recorded with SageTV at 1.5 mpbs, then as long as I'm recording less than 12 hours worth of content per day, it would keep up indefinitely.

I doubt I'm so lucky that SageTV already supports this, so barring that - how does SageTV save video files to the hard disk?

Would it be possible for me to simply set up an FTP server on the SageTV machine, so that I could write a script on my computer in europe to continuously download any new recordings (as media files) as they appear on the hard disk, and could these files then be played in any player once they're safely on my hard drive in europe?

Would appreciate any response - thanks in advance!

///Leif

[stanger89]

Hey, glad to see you made it over here

Originally Posted by leif

Hello there!

I currently live in the United States, but I'm moving back to Europe very soon.

I've realized that I'm gonna miss american TV a lot, and this gave me an idea.

I'm going to leave a computer with a capture card, satellite receiver and DSL line. I've been told that SageTV would be ideally suited for this, but I have yet to actually try it myself.

SageClient should work fine for scheduling things across the internet (VPN), but there won't be enough bandwidth to actually stream video.

Is there perhaps a way for SageClient to run in a non-realtime mode?

Not that I'm aware, what would probably happen is you'd get a lot of studdering, more studdering than playback.

For example - if the DSL line has 768kbps upstream, and SageClient was continuously downloading shows recorded with SageTV at 1.5 mpbs, then as long as I'm recording less than 12 hours worth of content per day, it would keep up indefinitely.

I doubt I'm so lucky that SageTV already supports this, so barring that - how does SageTV save video files to the hard disk?

Sage just saves them, nothing special, just .mpgs for MPEG-2 files, and .mp4? for the MPEG-4 ones.

Would it be possible for me to simply set up an FTP server on the SageTV machine, so that I could write a script on my computer in europe to continuously download any new recordings (as media files) as they appear on the hard disk, and could these files then be played in any player once they're safely on my hard drive in europe?

Should be possible, but you wouldn't be able to play them inside SageClient since it doesn't support "local" playback. One option (kind of expensive) would be to get an extra copy of SageTV, and then you could copy the wiz.bin from your US SageTV install to your EU SageTV install and then once you FTP the recordings, you could watch them from SageTV. You wouldn't have a guide, but you would have all the guide info associated with the recordings that way.

[robbied31]

Couldn't he just let them record, ftp them to Europe computer, then watch them with any video player [with mpeg2 support] he wanted? It doesn't have to be played from within sage, does it?

robbieD

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by robbied31

Couldn't he just let them record, ftp them to Europe computer, then watch them with any video player [with mpeg2 support] he wanted? It doesn't have to be played from within sage, does it?

robbieD

He will still need an MPEG-2 decoder, if he wants to watch the videos outside of SageTV.

I like Stanger's suggestion, but go one step further:
Copy the new video files AND the wiz.bin on every FTP transaction

This way, you'll have a completely identical SageTV installation on your European computer (minus the capture card).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

I like Stanger's suggestion, but go one step further:
Copy the new video files AND the wiz.bin on every FTP transaction

That was actually what I meant

[leif]

Interesting! I think that could work - I'm fine with playing the files in other players. Does it give files sensible names automatically, or are they just called (shudder) SAGE0001.MPG for example?

Also, how self-sufficient is the system. It would be quite a commute to hop on a plane to go reset it, how stable would it be for a solution like this?

///Leif

[stanger89]

They're pretty sensible, ie ShowName-EpisodeName-random#.mpg.

As for stability, my server only goes down when I take it down. In reality the UI is about the only thing that ever crashes, and you can run the server completely without the UI now that it can run as a service. Plus you can use Windows' service recovery feature to restart it if something should happen.

[leif]

Awesome! Sounds better and better. I guess it'll make more sense to control in with the web interface than to use SageClient + VPN, since SageClient won't be able to play the videos anyway.

Well then.. All I need then is to acquire the software and hardware. Is there any particular capture card you guys recommend? MPEG-4 is a must, and the lower computer system requirements, the better (lower utility bill).

///Leif

[korben_dallas]

If you will be watching the videos in an external media player, then I'd suggest the retail Hauppage 150 card. Capture at a high rate, and then do a conversion to DivX or MPEG-4 or whatever format you like.

I have the usb capture ConvertX device, which records natively in DivX and MPEG-4, but I don't think it would be beneficial to you, unless you were watching the files from directly inside SageTV.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

I have the usb capture ConvertX device, which records natively in DivX and MPEG-4, but I don't think it would be beneficial to you, unless you were watching the files from directly inside SageTV.

Why do you say that? the only form of the recording that can only be played in SageTV is the DivX/MPEG4 files inside MPEG2 wrappers while the recording is in progress to enable watching it live. But, they don't have to be recorded that way & can instead go directly to a DivX/MPEG4 file.

- Andy

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by leif

Awesome! Sounds better and better. I guess it'll make more sense to control in with the web interface than to use SageClient + VPN, since SageClient won't be able to play the videos anyway.

Well, that depends, you can't do everything from the web interface, so I would want to be able to either Remote Desktop and view the Sage interface, or use SageClient. Unless I'm mistaken, you can't create or setup favorites with the webserver.

Well then.. All I need then is to acquire the software and hardware. Is there any particular capture card you guys recommend? MPEG-4 is a must, and the lower computer system requirements, the better (lower utility bill).

///Leif

The Plextor ConvertX is (AFIAK) the only supported capture devide that encodes to MPEG-4.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Why do you say that? the only form of the recording that can only be played in SageTV is the DivX/MPEG4 files inside MPEG2 wrappers while the recording is in progress to enable watching it live. But, they don't have to be recorded that way & can instead go directly to a DivX/MPEG4 file.

- Andy

Because he can get a much better quality recording and smaller file size by recording at a high bit rate MPEG-2, then do a batch transcode to DivX or MPEG-4.

I would imagine file size would be an issue, considering the cross continent file transfer he'll have to do. So I don't think the ConvertX is really beneficial, since he'll be watching the videos in a non-SageTV player.

[leif]

I'm confused - doesn't the ConvertX allow me to record directly to MPEG-4 (DivX)? And in that case, why would I need to transcode? Is the on-the-fly hardware DivX encoding significantly subpar to the software version?

File size is definitely an issue. At 2.4 MBPS, I can record for "only" 8 hours a day if I want it to keep up indefinitely with a 768kbps DSL line. Faster DSL line would be prohibitively expensive (768kbps upstream is already $90 per month in the san francisco bay area with SpeakEasy).

Stanger89, what does "Favorites" mean exactly? In TiVo-speak, is it "season pass" or "wish list"?

(I've had the same old hardware tivo since 1999.. i hope that's not a banned keyword! so PC-PVR is new to me)


More questions: The ConvertX proudly supports USB 2.0, but does it REQUIRE it? Will it work with USB 1.1? Plain old USB has at least 6mbps sustained bandwidth so it should theoretically be possible to record even 4mbps DivX through it.

The machine I hope to use with this is an old Shuttle FV24 system (you know, the very first Mini-ITX system - with a celeron 900 cpu, 256mb ram, and an appropriately huge hard drive). I could always upgrade if this isn't enough, but it would be nice to find a use for the old trusty box.

Last but not least, if I'm gonna be using SageClient to schedule recordings from europe, do I still need the full SageTV on the american end, or will SageTV Recorder be enough?

Thanks again guys .

///Leif

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by leif

I'm confused - doesn't the ConvertX allow me to record directly to MPEG-4 (DivX)? And in that case, why would I need to transcode? Is the on-the-fly hardware DivX encoding significantly subpar to the software version?

Yes, it does record directly to mpeg4. By default it wraps it in an mpeg2 wrapper while recording & then unwraps that to an avi when the recording is done. But, you can change a property (mmc/enable_mpeg4_timeshifting=false) to tell it to skip the wrapper step.

korben_dallas meant that you would get a smaller file by transcoding an mpeg2 file to mpeg4... but wouldn't that process take a long time?

what does "Favorites" mean exactly?

See p. 25 of the v2.2. PDF manual. Favorites are shows you want SageTV to always record & it tracks which ones you've watched.

Last but not least, if I'm gonna be using SageClient to schedule recordings from europe, do I still need the full SageTV on the american end, or will SageTV Recorder be enough?

You can't use a client with SageTV Recorder. I think you would have to use some sort of remote control software to use Recorder. But, it is basically a digital VCR & does not have the features that SageTV has -- see What is the difference between SageTV and SageTVRecorder?. Also, you cannot use the Plextor ConvertX & some other encoders with it.

- Andy

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by leif

I'm confused - doesn't the ConvertX allow me to record directly to MPEG-4 (DivX)? And in that case, why would I need to transcode? Is the on-the-fly hardware DivX encoding significantly subpar to the software version?

Yes the ConvertX does record natively to DivX & MPEG-4, but in my experience, I only get a 25% reduction in file size compared with an equivalent quality MPEG-2 file. You can do much better with a true software transcoding process, but like Andy (Opus) said, that will take time. However, I don't see the transcoding being an issue, unless someone else is using your computer while you are away.

Originally Posted by leif

More questions: The ConvertX proudly supports USB 2.0, but does it REQUIRE it? Will it work with USB 1.1? Plain old USB has at least 6mbps sustained bandwidth so it should theoretically be possible to record even 4mbps DivX through it. The machine I hope to use with this is an old Shuttle FV24 system (you know, the very first Mini-ITX system - with a celeron 900 cpu, 256mb ram, and an appropriately huge hard drive). I could always upgrade if this isn't enough, but it would be nice to find a use for the old trusty box.

I'm fairly sure the ConvertX requires USB 2.0, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually tested it. It would be an expensive mistake if you're wrong.

Also, I want to say that I am very pleased with my ConvertX, however, there are some known issues that might cause you to question purchasing one right now. I know I had a lot of trouble with MPEG-4 recordings while using the 2.2.x beta versions of SageTV, and I haven't even tried it since I upgraded to 2.2 since it hadn't worked in months.

[Lucas]

Just an idea for you...... highly theoretical at that...

If you had an identical(or near identical) SageTV setup in the Europe PC with an extra SageTV licence.

Also run the DirMon plugin on the US SageTV pc to copy every .mpg/.avi file accross the net to the Europe PC's SageTV recording directory.

Every few hours or just before you get home in Europe (to start watching) copy the Wiz.bin file accross and Start SageTV.

Theoretically, the European instance of SageTV with the copy of wiz.bin, would look in the recording dir for all the mpg/avi files. If they are there it would allow you to play them.

Let's have some constructive criticism, based on experiece, to see if this can work..... .

PS. This would need a lot of bandwith.....

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by leif

I'm confused - doesn't the ConvertX allow me to record directly to MPEG-4 (DivX)? And in that case, why would I need to transcode? Is the on-the-fly hardware DivX encoding significantly subpar to the software version?

It's more a case of inexpensive realtime encoders are subpar to the "offline" (non-realtime) encoders. Basically, in order to be cheap and maintain realtime performance, consumer encoders (both MPEG-4 and MPEG-2) run optomized compression algorithms, that sacrifice file size performance.

If we had really expensive encoders, realtime to MPEG-4 would be the same or better than software. Eg, Digital Cable uses MPEG-2 and gets similar to better quality at about 1/2 to 1/4 the sizes of the PVR 250, most of the DC channels from our provider are around 2Mbps, where I record at 6-8Mbps with my 250.

To expand on korben's comments. You could probably get good quality at about 768kbps if you were to encode to MPEG4 "offline".

Here's an option for you (although you may not be able to play them is Sage). You could record at say MPEG2 Max Quality (12Mpbs) and then transcode to Nero Digital MPEG4 AVC. I'd guess you could get good quality at under 768kbps, maybe down to 500-600kbps (I haven't played much with transcoding lately).

The down side would be you'd need a really powerfull CPU to transcode to AVC in a reasonable amount of time.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by stanger89

To expand on korben's comments. You could probably get good quality at about 768kbps if you were to encode to MPEG4 "offline".

Here's an option for you (although you may not be able to play them is Sage). You could record at say MPEG2 Max Quality (12Mpbs) and then transcode to Nero Digital MPEG4 AVC. I'd guess you could get good quality at under 768kbps, maybe down to 500-600kbps (I haven't played much with transcoding lately).

The down side would be you'd need a really powerfull CPU to transcode to AVC in a reasonable amount of time.

If I remember correctly, I transcoded a 4.x GB DVD movie file to maximum definition AVC profile MPEG-4, using the two-pass method, highest thread priority, and a file size fit of 2.1GB (so I could store four MP4 movies on one dual layer DVD), and it took about 4 hours on a P4 3.2GHz w/ 1GB PC3200 dual channel.

That does sound painful, but I'll guarantee you couldn't tell it from the original.. to me, it actually looked better in some places than the DVD.

Now you could certainly tone down from max definition and maybe even only do one pass, since we are talking about tv shows recorded via a capture card.

One more thing to think about is your actual upload speed on your DSL. If you really got 768kbps upload bandwidth, then a 1 hour program transcoded down to 768kbps would take.. 1 hour to upload. That's theoretical, not practical.

[WhollyMindless]

Simplest solution - if you can get a reading on the US based satellites, just take your satellite tuner over there. Getting EPG isn't an issue through the net.

It'll be low to the ground most likely but you might be able to pull it.

Wholly

[wrwaugh]

The ability to get satellite is unlikely... I am in the U.S. Virgin Islands and need a 6 foot dish to reliably get Echostar 119 and a 4 footer to get 110.

As for the issue at hand, Your machine should be satisfactory for runing Sage TV. You can run Windows XP Pro and remote desktop from Europe to change configurations, favorites, etc.

As Stanger89 said, you can run SageTV as a windows service... without the user interface. This has two advantages, it is more stable and will restart with machine reboots if you desire. With remote desktop you could open the UI when you desire to set favorites or manual recordings.

On this forum you will find information about web-based methods of controlling Sage remotely.

Try it. You will be an adventurer and a true techno geek!