Lockups with 2.2 and a WinTV 350

[Blackwell15]

There is a poll in here somewhere about the PVR350 problems. I found it while searching the threads but cant find it again. I think it was started in 2004?

Blackwell

[insomniac]

I realize that this issue seems very software/driver related, but I recall having a terrible freezing issue back in the DVCR days and the fix for me was to crank up the latency of the card from within powerstrip. Its been a while, but im sure that you can find some posts from me regarding this latency issue.

It would not be hard to see if this may help with the PVR350 EOF issue, or similar...

someone give it a try!

EDIT:

err..here is one of them. You will get the idea...

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...t=DVCR+latency

[carlgar]

Originally Posted by Blackwell15

There is a poll in here somewhere about the PVR350 problems. I found it while searching the threads but cant find it again. I think it was started in 2004?

Blackwell

I believe you are referring to the Calling all Hauppauge 350 users for satisfaction poll thread which I consider to be out of date now. There has been several improvements in the drivers since then but there are still bugs. I have thought about a new poll but do not think it will do any good. I don't think Hauppauge is doing anything with the 350, their last driver update was Oct 18, 2004. I believe the 350 has now been obsoleted by the MVP.

[insomniac]

I love the MVP, but it would not be acceptable for my front room rig. Way to slow and too much intermittent choppiness for my blood...

Originally Posted by carlgar

I believe you are referring to the Calling all Hauppauge 350 users for satisfaction poll thread which I consider to be out of date now. There has been several improvements in the drivers since then but there are still bugs. I have thought about a new poll but do not think it will do any good. I don't think Hauppauge is doing anything with the 350, their last driver update was Oct 18, 2004. I believe the 350 has now been obsoleted by the MVP.

[jphhughes]

Originally Posted by carlgar

I believe you are referring to the [URL=http://forums.freytechnologies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6124] I believe the 350 has now been obsoleted by the MVP.

Is this true ? If I get a MVP and hook it to my TV will I get as good if not better picture that the 350 provides? I have read on the MCE sites that the extenders for MCE also provide a much better picture quality. I know very little about the MVP or extenders . Does it provide real time TV viewing or just recorded TV? Is it worth looking into?

[byopvr]

Originally Posted by jphhughes

Is this true ? If I get a MVP and hook it to my TV will I get as good if not better picture that the 350 provides? I have read on the MCE sites that the extenders for MCE also provide a much better picture quality. I know very little about the MVP or extenders . Does it provide real time TV viewing or just recorded TV? Is it worth looking into?

I'd imagine it would equivalent PQ.

I've seen the MediaMVP used with GBPVR and heard of people using the community built plugin for SageTV to good effect, BUT buying more/different hardware doesn't really fix the PVR350/SageTV problem.

The MediaMVP is great way to keep your PC away from your TV and just run network cable... But if you have a PVR350 it doesn't make much sense (unless you want to run it to a 2nd tv)... if different hardware was going to solve the problem i'd just use a decent video card with TV out (or an xcard)!

I'm pretty fustrated although strangely optimistic that we as a community could come together and systematically come to a work around or combination of settings or "trick" to occasionaly jiggle the pvr350's decoder handle (or the segement of SageTV UI->decoder code) to get better stability out of the pvr350/sagetv combo. I almost wonder how stable the ivtv xwindow/framebuffer drivers and mythtv are... as a point of comparison and if anything can be learned from how they approach forcing stuff through the pvr350 decoder/output.

*shrug*

rampy

[cummings66]

The problem is that the PVR-350 is not stable hardware. You can't work around hardware that's buggy, that's the whole problem. It's also not a PVR-350/Sage problem, it's unstable with their own software they bundle with it and they will acknowledge it if asked the right questions.

The best we could hope for is to convince Hauppauge to fix the thing by virture of numbers.

In any event, it's not unusable for me, but I am working on figuring out how to use the DVI out of my video card to obtain a picture/audio sync that's reliable and no more lockups. I.e. the audio is usually in sync, but drifts sometimes, the lockups happen at the EOF, but not always. It's maddening.

My problem is I haven't figured out how to have a dual head system with Sage on one of them completely independant resolution wise. I'd also say that thus far the 350's S video out is not beatable by using DVI output from a video card. It's sad they can't fix the issue.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by byopvr

I've done some more testing... nothing too scientific... but I thought I'd share...

I'm thinking about putting together a testing grid, where we could systematically test certain conditions/options...

rampy

The problem with your solutions which work by the way is that I bought the card because I wanted a hardware solution and now I have essentially a PVR 150. I could have saved a lot of money by buying a PVR 150 in the first place if I had known that it couldn't be used as advertised.

As I said earlier, the output from that card is very nice and very hard to beat, when it works. If they could fix it I'd be tickled pink.

[byopvr]

Originally Posted by cummings66

The problem is that the PVR-350 is not stable hardware. You can't work around hardware that's buggy, that's the whole problem. It's also not a PVR-350/Sage problem, it's unstable with their own software they bundle with it and they will acknowledge it if asked the right questions.

I'm not 100% convinced that is the case. It's more likely it's a combination of SageTV UI overlay forcing code and pvr350 drivers IMHO.

The best we could hope for is to convince Hauppauge to fix the thing by virture of numbers.

I think we should convince the two groups to work together in their own best interests to mutually address (or at least communicate progress or acknowledgement the existance) of the issue(s).

The problem with your solutions which work by the way is that I bought the card because I wanted a hardware solution and now I have essentially a PVR 150. I could have saved a lot of money by buying a PVR 150 in the first place if I had known that it couldn't be used as advertised.

I realize you are probably as fustrated as I am (or more so), but I don't think you understood what I was proposing. I'm not saying "don't use the pvr350's TV out/decoder" I'm saying we could as a motivated community of pvr350/sagetv users:

1. Better isolate the issue(s) in order to have better information to give Hauppauge/SageTV and make a better case of our valid issues
(this does puts the onus on us to isolate the issue(s) but will make for a better chance of getting results. )
2. Find possible workarounds to improve our user experience in the meantime

example: if the "fix" in wintv2000 for EOF issues is to not play x amount of seconds of the end of a file, why can't we make a STV or mod a config or registry setting to do something simliar? There's a lot of bright and enterprising SageTV users/hackers/etc that could come up with something (which is better than nothing).

I also feel strongly that there are other settings/tweaks/circumstances we could discover through a more systematic approach to greatly enhance our stability with the pvr350 / SageTV configuration.

*shrug* YMMV but if I felt we could come together as a community and work on this I'd be all over it... if we're just going to be defeatist about it I don't think i'll bother (or try my luck with gbpvr or mythtv and the ivtv driverset or settling on vid card tv out *sigh*)

As I said earlier, the output from that card is very nice and very hard to beat, when it works. If they could fix it I'd be tickled pink.

Emphatically agreed there!

rampy

[insomniac]

just snipped my comments that I made on another pvr350 thread...


Against all beter judgement, negative reviews, and common sense....I have decided to go the way of hardware decoding! yes...that means pvr350, yay!

So I decided to read this forum until my eyes bled, and to the point that nothing made sense anymore and then went on a hardware hunt. My goal is to follow:

* buy a silent mini mid-tower (full ATX case)
* buy a mobo that has seemed to have less issues with PVR350
* This same mobo was to have *soundstorm* w/ spdif optical out (Nforce1-2)
* This board was to have a AGP slot (fallback plan!)
* succeed where most others have failed!

What I ended up with:

* CASE ANTEC|SLK1650B 350W (Seems like the Asus A7n266-VM is the only choice for a mini-ITX board/case, unless you can find the shuttle one listed in this forum somewhere..)

* ABIT AN7 - Nforce 2 w/ 6channel soundstorm spdif in/out
* AMD Sempron (1.8something gig) cant remember which one right now
* PVR350
* existing gf4 400mx for tv out (another svid output for config)

Thoughts on the hardware:

The case - noisier than I had hoped. I will probably go buy some insulation to see if i can quiet it down a little. But it is a great case to keep the cpu cool, due to its passive cooling air duct out the side! $60

The mobo - Is refurbished and sold at newegg for $52 right now. Like everything about it thus far.

AMD Sempron - Kinda sluggish, but what did I expect! Runs cool, and thats its job! $78

PVR350 - Who knows! $191 (who knows why its still so expensive)

Total: $432.11 w/ shipping


Results:

So far, not bad! Right now, after a few small speed bumps, I have a pretty stable system. I will not say that I am without issue until I get through the trials, but I must say that it looks as if I will be able to say so.

I have witnessed what would be the other pvr350 sufferrs *EOF* bug, but it did not create a soft or hard crash. It just basically caused a very long pause, which led me to switch to my software decoding display(gf4mx tvout) and cntrl-alt-del, within seconds of doing that, it caused sage client to relinquish enough resourses to then display the delete screen, so that i could choose cancel(or delete..whatever). I then immediately turned off the *promt for delete after end of recording* option, and have never witnessed the problem since.


Speed Bumps that I have yet to overcome:

To the reason why I have quoted this..... I suffer this same problem. If I leave software decoding enabled, all is well. As soon as I set hardware only, sage Client crashes. Tonight I will try the workaround below to see if that does the trick.

Thoughts:

I have yet to use the tv encoder portion of the pvr350. This is a client machine which already has access to other tv tuners. It might be prudent to avoid local encoding until all other stuff is tested *good*

*The TV out is very impressive quality!!!! *

Man the SPDIF passthrough is nice to have. Now I know what I was missing!

Anyone else dumb enough to take the plunge?

I.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by byopvr

1. Better isolate the issue(s) in order to have better information to give Hauppauge/SageTV and make a better case of our valid issues
(this does puts the onus on us to isolate the issue(s) but will make for a better chance of getting results. )
2. Find possible workarounds to improve our user experience in the meantime

To do this we really need a thread for PVR350 owners with and without problems. We need to detail our configs so we have a baseline to establish what works.

I had posted my config once before in the hope somebody would post what they have and could then figure out the working systems. We have one post right above this that apparently works and is stable with no audio sync issues, no OSD lockups, no EOF lockups, and no reboots. His config is based on a different chipset than mine, but one working system does not a solution make. We really need people who NEVER have those problems to post their system configs to move forwards.

Hauppauge does not have that info, or if they do they will not tell you what works. They only say they have either never heard of the problem when I know that's a lie because I told them about it myself, or that the problem rarely occurs and they'll call me when they have a fix.

I'm not happy with the video cards output I use, GeForce 5700FX DVI output. It simply does not compare to the S Video output of the PVR 350, and from what I've seen elsewhere no software decoder can equal it, though some come close. I'm using the NVidia codec's and find for me they're the best so far and have no problems at all with software decoding.

[insomniac]

After doing, un-doing, and re-doing everything to get the hardware only part going, I am now successful. Unfortunately, I could not tell you what caused it to work. I can tell you that I ended up restoring to a previous state (pre-sp2), got it working after numerous re-installations of drivers and all the base applications. After that It worked. I then updated back to SP2 + all updates.

I then suffered from random freezing. Not at all pvr350 related. But to make sure, I disabled the card for troubleshooting purposes. It ended up being a general sage configuration issue. After messing with software codecs, audio rendering, etc, freezing was gone. Turned hardware only back on.

Next problem:

After turning hardware only back on, I lost audio. Hmm...I was thinking that my spdif passthrough on my motherboard would not be effected by this. Someone please tell me that you can be in *hardware only* and use spdif passthrough from your sound cards or mobos?!?

So my workaround for now is to run both software and hardware w/ software mode running intervideo non css w/ dxva, and NVDVD audio codecs (7% cpu).

At this moment, I would say that everything is working without a hitch. Although, I have yet to configure the pvr350's tv tuner as a network encoder, and at this point, do not care to temp fate!

Anyway..Im just trying to share my exp with this card the best I can, hopeing that it may help others. GL!

I.

[cummings66]

If you're using the hardware decoder, i.e. using the S Video output and at the same time you're getting your audio from the motherboard or audio soundcard you might have audio sync issues. In fact that's one of the biggest reasons for audio sync issues.

To explain it better, when using hardware only decoding your audio/video does not come from the codec's at all, you can do whatever you want because they have absolutely nothing to do with hardware decoding. That comes from the card only. When you run it through the audio card you can introduce a delay and problems. You might look at your audio settings to see if you have the SPDIF enabled however.

How do you have your card hooked up anyhow? I'm not sure I follow your hookups 100%? I'm guessing you're not using the audio out jack on the card? Are you using wav audio?

[insomniac]

Im using my onboard spdif from my mobo. Its a soundstorm mobo, so im trying to take advantage of it. Im pretty sure that the pvr350 card isnt capable of 5.1 digital right?

The only audio sync problems i have experienced are from fast forwarding and rewinding. At times it will get out of sync. A quick ff or rw will bring it back. I have not witnessed any gradual sync loss due to delay or latency.

I.

Originally Posted by cummings66

If you're using the hardware decoder, i.e. using the S Video output and at the same time you're getting your audio from the motherboard or audio soundcard you might have audio sync issues. In fact that's one of the biggest reasons for audio sync issues.

To explain it better, when using hardware only decoding your audio/video does not come from the codec's at all, you can do whatever you want because they have absolutely nothing to do with hardware decoding. That comes from the card only. When you run it through the audio card you can introduce a delay and problems. You might look at your audio settings to see if you have the SPDIF enabled however.

How do you have your card hooked up anyhow? I'm not sure I follow your hookups 100%? I'm guessing you're not using the audio out jack on the card? Are you using wav audio?

[Blackwell15]

[QUOTE=cummings66]To do this we really need a thread for PVR350 owners with and without problems. We need to detail our configs so we have a baseline to establish what works.

Hauppauge does not have that info, or if they do they will not tell you what works. They only say they have either never heard of the problem when I know that's a lie because I told them about it myself, or that the problem rarely occurs and they'll call me when they have a fix.[End Quote]

I have worked as a technician for a large computer chip manufacturer for 17 years. The old "We never heard of that problem before" is a long standing joke for us as we have all heard it dozens if not hundreds of times from vendors and equipment suppliers. Typically you have to hold their head in a vise and make them observe the problem to get them to admit it. Then they will tell you to upgrade your firmware, drivers or buy the next rev. or that they no longer support that version. Just thought I would throw that in

Since I last posted in this thread I have been working sage and the pvr for a week or so and Im finding that:
1. I dont always get the EOF lockup. Setting Sage to "High" priority when starting the program usually lets me get Sage back on track when I get the EOF lock if I only enter 1 or 2 commands. If you press a lot of buttons in frustration it will lockup the computer for real.
2. Running Live TV for long periods of time, changing channels with the remote instead of selecting from the guide will cause Sage/computer to lock. When it locks cntrl-alt-delet does not bring up the Task Manager or re-boot, I have to power off.
3. Different problem has popped up, after waking Sage with the remote, the remote does not work. If you start viewing a recording or program from the menu on the computer, the FF, RW, Pause and Play buttons work, but nothing else does. Restarting the IR program restores the remote functions.
4. After starting Sage for the first time and viewing live tv, the video is mucked up, blocks.. artifacts.. yada yada.. If you switch to a recording for a few seconds,, the recording is fine.. the switch back to live tv, live tv is fine
If you dont do the above.. anything recorded is blocky, mucked up yada yada..

Otherwise the recordings are great quality with only a few dropped frames here and there. Im currently contacting Sage support for issues starting with the remote problem. (You need to install the IR software and the latest IR file )

I tried to track down a data sheet for the Conexant Mpeg decoder chip on the web, no luck. Turns out that Conexant bought it from the company who developed it who no longer has a web site. Conexant has a great promo sheet but no technical specs for the IC like operating temperture. If anyone has a data sheet I would really appreciate hearing from you.
Thanks
Blackwell

[insomniac]

I said that I would leave some comments on my progress with the pvr350, so here I go:

So far, with my previous configuration, the pvr350 output has been very stable. Absolutely no crashes or lockups. As stated before, I can initiate what would be considered the EOF bug, by turning on the "prompt for delete and the end of a show" setting. Turning it off fixes the issue for me.

As for the output. It is amazingly clear. When compared to my MVP, it is clearly better, but the MVP is better than all other options (less the Xcard, because I dont have one to compare with).

I still have one problem. A/V sync. I lose a/v every 4th or 5th time when fast forwarding or rewinding. A quick ffw or rrw will fix a/v every time. One thing that I did notice is that every couple of ffw's the video output will get jittery for a split second. I have noticed that it is more common for a/v to get out of sync following this jitter.

I have now also enable the encoder via sage recorder without causing any issues.

Less the A/V sync issue, I am running rock solid!

At this point, I guess that I will take my own recommendation and change the latency on the card to see if it aleviates the a/v issue. Honestly, I cant believe that no one has tried this yet......

I would be willing to bet that most people that find the pvr350 unbearable are running it on a VIA chipset(always had pci latency problems!). Am I close?

Anyway...food for thought...

I.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by insomniac

I would be willing to bet that most people that find the pvr350 unbearable are running it on a VIA chipset(always had pci latency problems!). Am I close?

Not with me. I run it on an ASUS P4PE motherboard which has an Intel chipset and for me it was stable except for the AV sync issues and EOF issues. Don't get me wrong, I had the other problems and a fan fixed those.

Now of course using my Nvidia card and DVI I have no problems besides the occasional micro stutter problem that the tweaks mentioned helped, but did not fix. I'd rather have that the AV sync problems.

[insomniac]

Just got home an hour ago and tried out powerstrip. Cranked the Hauppauge card's latency to 248 and proceeded to hammer on sage. I have yet to get any A/V sync. Next is the wife test. She can break anything!!

I hope that in the next couple of days, I will be able to say the same thing. If so, this will quite a few happy PVR350 owners!

I.

Originally Posted by insomniac

I said that I would leave some comments on my progress with the pvr350, so here I go:

So far, with my previous configuration, the pvr350 output has been very stable. Absolutely no crashes or lockups. As stated before, I can initiate what would be considered the EOF bug, by turning on the "prompt for delete and the end of a show" setting. Turning it off fixes the issue for me.

As for the output. It is amazingly clear. When compared to my MVP, it is clearly better, but the MVP is better than all other options (less the Xcard, because I dont have one to compare with).

I still have one problem. A/V sync. I lose a/v every 4th or 5th time when fast forwarding or rewinding. A quick ffw or rrw will fix a/v every time. One thing that I did notice is that every couple of ffw's the video output will get jittery for a split second. I have noticed that it is more common for a/v to get out of sync following this jitter.

I have now also enable the encoder via sage recorder without causing any issues.

Less the A/V sync issue, I am running rock solid!

At this point, I guess that I will take my own recommendation and change the latency on the card to see if it aleviates the a/v issue. Honestly, I cant believe that no one has tried this yet......

I would be willing to bet that most people that find the pvr350 unbearable are running it on a VIA chipset(always had pci latency problems!). Am I close?

Anyway...food for thought...

I.

[Crashless]

Umm - PLEASE tell me where you got powerstrip.

Also, what version of Java are you running? Do you have prompt for deletion options on or off?

I've never gotten the sync issues your describing, but my system gets the hard resets about 50% of the time. I usually get one or two freebies after a restart, but that's it. It just hits the end, and boom! POST screen.

I'm on a Nforce 2 MB.

Thanks in advance.

[insomniac]

trialware:

http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/fil...id,6241,00.asp

you can find old versions around as well. brief directions after install is:

options
adapter information
up or down arrow until you find the "Hauppauge Video Device"
uncheck "read only"
change latency to 248
apply
dont know if you need to reboot

I am in software and hardware mode, w/ delete prompt turned off. as stated before, I do see a minor lockup when delete prompt is turned on, but no hard freeze.

im running nforce2 chipset too.
running latest java

I have yet to lose sync! Been hammering for hours now...
EDIT:

sigh....just lost sync 1 time watching a recording. corrected immediately with a ffw or rrw...still seems much better, but time will tell..

I.