HDTV Support?

[dbfresh23]

I keep reading posts asking for HDTV support but are there even any HDTV tuners available? No I don't count cards like the ATI which are only capable of Off Air HDTV. Hard to support something that doesn't exist...

If there are any HD Cards that are capable of getting a signal from an external receiver like a cable box or sat box some links would be nice.

[stanger89]

I guess the answer is no then, there are no cards capable of recording uncompressed HD. At least not unless you want to build a $5000-50,000 PC to do it.

[dbfresh23]

Thanks stanger, that's actually the type of reply I was expecting. I just think that instead of people bugging Sage for HD support, they should be bugging HW mfgrs for hardware for Sage to support. I'm about an hour north of NYC and I know there's no way i'm getting any off Air HDTV, I'd be that most people asking for support couldn't get quality of air HD either.

[Hector]

What source are you wanting to record? Other than the in the clear stuff that most people can get OTA the sat and cable boxes are encrypted.

Of course there's always that 'component in' card no one makes.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

Thanks stanger, that's actually the type of reply I was expecting. I just think that instead of people bugging Sage for HD support, they should be bugging HW mfgrs for hardware for Sage to support. I'm about an hour north of NYC and I know there's no way i'm getting any off Air HDTV, I'd be that most people asking for support couldn't get quality of air HD either.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

Thanks stanger, that's actually the type of reply I was expecting. I just think that instead of people bugging Sage for HD support, they should be bugging HW mfgrs for hardware for Sage to support.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, it's not up to the manufacturers to build something for Sage, it's up to Frey to make Sage support the hardware. There are a number of opitons already that Sage could rather easily support, namely the Fusion and HDTV Blunder. There are more coming like those from Vbox and Sasem I think has BDA drivers coming.

If you're talking about getting someone to build a component in capture card, don't hold your breath. To make that viable someone would have to design spin, and then sell (cheaply) a ASIC capable of realtime hardware compression of HD to MPEG2 or ideally H.264. There's only one card I'm aware of that can currently do realtime compression (MPEG-2) of HD is the LSI HDTVXpress, and last I checked it was over $20,000 since it uses 3 FPGAs (IIRC).

I'm about an hour north of NYC and I know there's no way i'm getting any off Air HDTV, I'd be that most people asking for support couldn't get quality of air HD either.

Do you have cable? If so, you should be able to get your local channels via either a QAM card (like the Fusion III QAM) or via firewire. Consumer HDTV is going to be a pre-encoded phenomenon. OTA ATSC, QAM and Firewire (and hopefully DVB) are where we, as consumers, will get our HD, actaully all our video in the future.

[dbfresh23]

No, I am using DirecTV not cable. I guess what I'm getting at is that with the current cards out there you are limited to what stations you can receive on it - no USA, TNT, HBO, ShowTime, etc... (whether they broadcast in HD yet is not my point - only one i know from that short list that does is TNT)

An HTPC that cannot get all of the channels that I receive is pretty useless.

Actually I'm pretty confident that we will see cards that allow HDTV from a cable box or Sat box to work just like my SDTV does now with a pvr250 and sat box. It may take pressure from Microsoft, but it will eventually work.

Don't know if this will make sence to you...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

No, I am using DirecTV not cable. I guess what I'm getting at is that with the current cards out there you are limited to what stations you can receive on it - no USA, TNT, HBO, ShowTime, etc... (whether they broadcast in HD yet is not my point - only one i know from that short list that does is TNT)

You could get your box R5000 or 169time modded.

An HTPC that cannot get all of the channels that I receive is pretty useless.

Actually I'm pretty confident that we will see cards that allow HDTV from a cable box or Sat box to work just like my SDTV does now with a pvr250 and sat box. It may take pressure from Microsoft, but it will eventually work.

Don't know if this will make sence to you...

I doubt it will come from MS, or with MS presure, what we'll get from MS is CableCard for the PC, and maybe something similar with Satellite. Considering that it looks like we'll be able to (with DRM) capture raw bitstreams with a PC, it's looking less and less like there will be an HD version of the 250.

[Hector]

I don't really see MS pressuring D*. HTPC folks are not even a blip on the map, hardly worth the risk of exposing their technology to a PC. Besides they have a solution that they're banking on with their own HD pvr next year to replace Tivo. That and the DirecTv Media center thing is where they're going.

Certainly one day there might be something, but content is heading in the exact opposite direction. I might not even be able to record and archive the Super Bowl in HD next year (I've been recording them since 1982)

peace . . .

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

No, I am using DirecTV not cable. I guess what I'm getting at is that with the current cards out there you are limited to what stations you can receive on it - no USA, TNT, HBO, ShowTime, etc... (whether they broadcast in HD yet is not my point - only one i know from that short list that does is TNT)

An HTPC that cannot get all of the channels that I receive is pretty useless.

Actually I'm pretty confident that we will see cards that allow HDTV from a cable box or Sat box to work just like my SDTV does now with a pvr250 and sat box. It may take pressure from Microsoft, but it will eventually work.

Don't know if this will make sence to you...

[mikejaner]

Its OVER THE AIR, not OFF THE AIR.

[mikejaner]

No, I am using DirecTV not cable. I guess what I'm getting at is that with the current cards out there you are limited to what stations you can receive on it - no USA, TNT, HBO, ShowTime, etc... (whether they broadcast in HD yet is not my point - only one i know from that short list that does is TNT)

This statement doesn't make sense. I record USA, TNT, HBO and Showtime with the current capture cards.

[dbfresh23]

Statement makes perfect sense, when you look at the whole post...

Current HDTV capture cards NOT SDTV. Being that OTA HD cards cannot receive those channels.



MCSE....

Must Consult Someone Experienced

[mikejaner]

AHHHHH, I must have been a little too tired last night.

Anyways, to put my $0.02 in. Microsoft is rumored to be putting the pressure on the Cable comanies and working High Def Cable for their next release of MCE. This means we will see High Def Tuners with Cable Cards by this time next year if it all works out. I don't know of anything in the works for Satellite comanies. They have their own agendas. One of which being Directv's new box to replace Tivo's. This is probably going to have a rehash next year with a High Def unit of that same system.

MCSE....

Must Consult Someone Experienced
Hey, hey. I am one of the few who can actually back the knowledge and experience needed to earn one of these Certs.

[dbfresh23]

Yeah, it looks like I may wind up having to switch back to cable, Although the town next to me has VDSL working and is said to be coming to my area soon - I doesn't support HD yet, but i'd assume it will have to soon. Best part with that is you only need 1 TV gateway, don't need a receiver at each tv.


I was just joking with that MCSE comment... But obviously you know what I meant!

Any way - the Yoda quote more then makes up for it!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

Best part with that is you only need 1 TV gateway, don't need a receiver at each tv.

That's not necessarily a good thing, in many ways it greatly complicates things since it relies on one box with multiple outputs and many RF remotes, so there's basically no way to use multiple tuners with it.

Re satellite:

All the technology is there to record and decrypt encrypted satellite, especially Dish, and also DirecTV once they go DVB-S2 (the only thing lacking is the "blessing" of D*). My point is that once MS demonstrates that they can provide a secure platform (with CableCard) there will be little/no reason for D* to maintain their boycott of PCs.

[dbfresh23]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's not necessarily a good thing, in many ways it greatly complicates things since it relies on one box with multiple outputs and many RF remotes, so there's basically no way to use multiple tuners with it.

Actually I think it works better that way because instead of a needing a receiver outside the TV, it just uses the TV tuner. So it's really very similar to regular cable, where there is no external receiver needed, just plugs right into the tv. The VDSL is just going from a "Gateway" instead of a splitter. Remotes and such are all independent from it. This is a small hole in the wall company, so they may not be doing things the best way, but my friend that has it doesn't have a RF remote, just uses the normal remote from his tv to change the channel on the tv, not on the gateway box.

So doing it this way, you should be able to go straight from the gateway to the tuner card.


Either way, I will not worry about Directv too much yet, since they aren't even going to start broadcasting local HDTV channels until later this year. Luckily I am in one of the first areas they will begin broadcasting in!

[stanger89]

I'll first note that I'm far from an expert on VDSL, but one forum member here has it, and I remember discussing how it worked...

Originally Posted by dbfresh23

Actually I think it works better that way because instead of a needing a receiver outside the TV, it just uses the TV tuner. So it's really very similar to regular cable, where there is no external receiver needed, just plugs right into the tv. The VDSL is just going from a "Gateway" instead of a splitter. Remotes and such are all independent from it. This is a small hole in the wall company, so they may not be doing things the best way, but my friend that has it doesn't have a RF remote, just uses the normal remote from his tv to change the channel on the tv, not on the gateway box.

AFIAK, it doesn't work like that. The does not work like you think, it works essentially like a digital cable box. What you get is a single box, and a few remotes for other TV. What happens is it outputs on channels 2, 3, 4, 5 (for example) and you have 4 TVs each tuned to their own channel (ie TV 1 watches ch 2, etc). You never actaully change the channel on the TV, you use the RF remotes to change the channel on the "gateway" which then decodes your desired channel and moduates it on the channel corrosponding with the remote you used. This makes it about impossible to use with a standalone PVR since they can't control RF boxes.

So doing it this way, you should be able to go straight from the gateway to the tuner card.

Sort of, but it's more like using the RF output of a cable box.

[duerra]

Pardon my (unwillful) ignorance, but I am under a flood of new information right now regarding this area of topic.

I am in the process of finishing my home theatre, with only the TV and the PRV remaining. The TV will be coming within the next couple of weeks, and I still need to make a decision on my PVR options.

Ok, so according to this thread, there is little in the way of HDTV support for tuners to the computer. The PVR-250 does have S-Video support, but I don't know how well this fits (and where I'm looking for some support).

• First, if I wanted to be able to pause/ff/rewind live TV with SageTV, would this then require that my video be downgraded to S-Video quality?
• Can somebody give me a quick list of items that I need to enable my PC to be able to record more than one show simultaneously?
• Is the last option possible, and still be able to manipulate "Live" TV?

I'm sure so much of this has been asked before, but as noted, I'm having a bit of information overload at the moment, and hoping that I can get some straight conversational answers to some direct questions that I have.

[mikejaner]

* First, if I wanted to be able to pause/ff/rewind live TV with SageTV, would this then require that my video be downgraded to S-Video quality?
Yes, you would have to use the Svideo out on the Cable/Satellite box you have.

* Can somebody give me a quick list of items that I need to enable my PC to be able to record more than one show simultaneously?
All you need is the number of cards for the number of simultaneous recordings you want to make. And you need that many Cable/Satellite boxes too.
* Is the last option possible, and still be able to manipulate "Live" TV?
Yes

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by duerra

Pardon my (unwillful) ignorance, but I am under a flood of new information right now regarding this area of topic.

I am in the process of finishing my home theatre, with only the TV and the PRV remaining. The TV will be coming within the next couple of weeks, and I still need to make a decision on my PVR options.

Ok, so according to this thread, there is little in the way of HDTV support for tuners to the computer. The PVR-250 does have S-Video support, but I don't know how well this fits (and where I'm looking for some support).

Yes and no. There are a number of HDTV cards available today, including the HDTV Blunder, Fusion, and MyHD (which I have coming ). These cards work great for their intended purpose, which is generally OTA HD capture, or QAM (cable) HD capture. However there are limitations, ie OTA channels are limited, and QAM capable cards are limited to unencrypted channels (often only those available OTA as well).

What there doesn't appear to be any sign of, is something similar to the PVR 250, that can take uncompressed HD and record it to MPEG-2 (or something better).

• First, if I wanted to be able to pause/ff/rewind live TV with SageTV, would this then require that my video be downgraded to S-Video quality?[/QUOTE]
  
  From a pure HD perspective:
  For OTA and unencrypted cable channels, you can capture an timeshift anything in full quality.
  For encrypted cable and Satellite HD, you have to downgrade to S-Video or an integrated DVR/STB. The other option is to get your Sat STB modded to output firewire or USB.
  
  However, most of the content on Cable/Sat isn't HD so S-Video isn't a downgrade for that.
  
  

  Can somebody give me a quick list of items that I need to enable my PC to be able to record more than one show simultaneously?

  One card for each show you want to record simultaneously, that includes liveTV. eg to record one thing and watch something else live, you need two cards. Or more correctly (in the case of SD) you need two encoders, which could be on one card like the PVR 500. However with HD, there's only one card I'm aware of with drivers that support multiple cards, and that's the Fusion.
  
  

  Is the last option possible, and still be able to manipulate "Live" TV?

Yes, there's nothing stopping that, however at what quality will depend on your source.

I'm sure so much of this has been asked before, but as noted, I'm having a bit of information overload at the moment, and hoping that I can get some straight conversational answers to some direct questions that I have.

It should also be noted, that it's looking more and more like a uncompressed HD recording card like mentioned above won't be necessary. It looks like MCE 2006 will support CableCard, which will allow recording of anything (except probably PPV, and no VOD) on cable. Now there will be DRM attached that will probably prevent you from (at least) archiving much of that to external media (like DVD). Hopefully streaming to other "client" devices will be allowed.

[dbfresh23]

Originally Posted by mikejaner

Its OVER THE AIR, not OFF THE AIR.

Actually, the antennas are called Off Air Antennas, that's where I was getting the off from. Basically, we're both right, it's referred to as both.