So what is sage media center?

[Cayars]

I don't get this. I hear people say this all the time that VMR9 looks better then Overlay but they look exactly the same to me on my systems.

Maybe this is due to the fact that I have calibrated my PC outside of SageTV for VRM9 and I have also calibrated it inside of SageTV for Overlay. On my systems VMR9 just uses more CPU then Overlay.

The only advantage I really ever found in SageTV was that the OSD doesn't resize differently in VMR9 mode as it does in Overlay mode but I more or less took care of this issue in my STV (at least for me).

[DFA]

Cayars:

Hi. I was actually thinking of contacting you (PM) about this (Firewire) after reading a post you made in the DVB thread. I do believe you could pull it off along with a little help from Anders in Sweden who has already blazed a trail.

Way off topic for this thread. I can PM you with some info or perhaps I will start a thread in the "Hardware" forum for all to see and contribute to in an effort to see what might shake out.

I was viewing my STB through the firewire hookup last night (Live TV: I view through Graphedit with a little filter graph I put together and watch full screen) and am always amazed at how much more clarity and definition there is for EVERYTHING. Going Firewire from STB to HTPC, decoding and going to DLP via DVI gives SIGNIFICANTLY better picture than even Component output from STB direct to DLP. I suspect decoding may not be so good in STB.

EDIT: While the Premium and PPV stuff is DTCP encrypted for many (mine currently are not), the abundance of unencrypted basic-service channels is not trivial. The "network" HD channels should not be encrypted. The improvement in PQ with firewire over an S-Video link to the PVR-250 is big time. I'm sure a lot of the degradation comes from multiple codec cycles for the S-Video route.

DFA

[cmaffia]

Originally Posted by Opus4

I don't know how you could read into it that the Windows version is being dropped/no longer supported.

Frey's policy stated here hasn't been changed lately:

- Andy

That was more my question as to whether or not 2.2 would be a free upgrade to 3.0 or not. I wasn't around when 1.4 was released.. was 1.4 a free upgrade to 2.0? If so, cool

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by cmaffia

That was more my question as to whether or no if 2.2 would be a free upgrade to 3.0 or not. I wasn't around when 1.4 was released.. was 1.4 a free upgrade to 2.0? If so, cool

Yes, it was a free upgrade from v1.4 to v2. Oh I see: when v3 is released, that almost certainly _does_ mean that development for v2 is over, just like v1.4 hasn't been changed lately.

- Andy

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by DFA

Cayars:

Hi. I was actually thinking of contacting you (PM) about this (Firewire) after reading a post you made in the DVB thread. I do believe you could pull it off along with a little help from Anders in Sweden who has already blazed a trail.

Way off topic for this thread. I can PM you with some info or perhaps I will start a thread in the "Hardware" forum for all to see and contribute to in an effort to see what might shake out.

I was viewing my STB through the firewire hookup last night (Live TV: I view through Graphedit with a little filter graph I put together and watch full screen) and am always amazed at how much more clarity and definition there is for EVERYTHING. Going Firewire from STB to HTPC, decoding and going to DLP via DVI gives SIGNIFICANTLY better picture than component from STB direct to DLP. Decoding may not be so good in STB.

DFA

Start a new thread.

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Yes, it was a free upgrade from v1.4 to v2. Oh I see: when v3 is released, that almost certainly _does_ mean that development for v2 is over, just like v1.4 hasn't been changed lately.

- Andy

Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends. If 3.0 has an upgrade charge then I could see Jeff putting out a patch release to 2.2.x if needed.

However, if 3.0 is a free upgrade just as 2.0 was then I'd agree that development for 2.x is done.

Either way, I'd feel very safe in thinking that "NEW" development for 2.x is done!

I'm just speculating here on this but we still don't know anything about the Windows version of the 3.0 software except that it has some graphical improvements. For all we know it could be the same "core" as 2.2.2 with a new updated STV. I doubt this but it very well could be.

Carlo

[Crazedz]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I think you missed my point, probably an unclear post on my part.

Sage doesn't support HDTV capture. My point was that there's no need for special hardware or "partnering" to get good HDTV output, it's already here in the form of current video cards, and it's only getting bigger.

So no, don't get the HDTV wonder over the 500 since it's not supported at all, and even if it is supported for HD, it will probably be only for HD since it doesn't have a hardware encoder for SD.

Sorry was out had to pickup my paycheck.

No i my what i was going on about was the upcomming DRM and wanting to have something that i could get to recieve hd content without the DRM crap in it. So i am seriously thinking about this and what i was trying to find out is well will it or some other card like it work with sagetv or will it at some date work with sage? Basicly trying to pick your brain here about it and if i should jump on this or get some other hd card (not high priced) that looks like it will at some point pickup sage support.

Basicly i would like to wait for the tech to settle down and freys to develop their hd system but i don't want drm so if im gonna get a HD card it has to been before that. And i was thinking the ati card maybe one that could have a good chance of getting supported since it can be made to work with mce now freys may support it. But i realize that this is just speculation and it could end up with freys going to other cards altogether so i was wanting you and others with more knowledge of the whole hd sceen to give me a little advice info on it.


On another note i forgot to mention i was watching xplay last night and saw a notice that the screensavers is going to be live from ces tonight so it's possible they might catch a passing view of the sage booth.

[mikejaner]

Oh, now I have to watch the Screensavers again? Right after I wrote that show off as going down the drain. Oh, well, I guess I can suffer through one more night.

[sleonard]

Originally Posted by Cayars

DFA, do you have any good links for the STB firewire TS stuff?

I'd like to take a look/read on this. Might not be to hard to do.

What R the limitations of doing this if any (i.e. DRM)?

Cayars, look in this thread at AVS Foums. Be prepared for a lot of reading.

As I remember it requires 1) a beta XP driver for consumer STB's from (I think) Microsoft. Don't know how they got a hold of it. 2) An app called DVHSCap for capturing .ts streams and 3) Can't remember now.

Limitations are DRM scrambling on the firewire out from the STB. Requires the recieving FW port to be DTCP 5C compliant if DRM is enabled on the box. Apparently, many of the cableco's have been slow to implement it and some are just too stupid. That will change eventually though and FW recording to computers will come to a screeching halt or, at best, be limited to OTA stations carried by the cableco. No PC FW card even qualifies for DTCP 5C certification nor can one ever be as far as I know (unless the 5C specs are leaked and hacked).

Since all 3 of my STB's have both HD reception and firewire outs and my new server has FW onboard I have been thinking about re-reading all those posts and trying it myself. If it were possible to get this in Sage I would be jumping for joy. (and selling my PVR250's on e-bay!)

[sleonard]

I live only 4 hours away from LV. I have been thinking of driving up there tomorrow night and going to the show on Sat. but I don't know if I can get in. Is CES open to the public? If I do go I could upload a report Sat. night

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Crazedz

No i my what i was going on about was the upcomming DRM and wanting to have something that i could get to recieve hd content without the DRM crap in it.

I wouldn't really recommend anything now, at least not if you want to use it in Sage, there's just been no indication if or which way they'll go with that. I think supporting BDA (MCE) drivers is a likely route, but who knows.

HD is going to be DRM'd I think, there's no way around it. It will be required to even recieve Cable or Sat HD (at least more than locals) so any app that wants to support that will have DRM and, and my guess, even if the card doesn't specifically support the BF, the app will.

Just speculation, but the only way to avoid DRM with HD will be to buy a card before it takes effect, and probably stick with whatever software is released before then also, afterword you're probably stuck.

[Crazedz]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I wouldn't really recommend anything now, at least not if you want to use it in Sage, there's just been no indication if or which way they'll go with that. I think supporting BDA (MCE) drivers is a likely route, but who knows.

HD is going to be DRM'd I think, there's no way around it. It will be required to even recieve Cable or Sat HD (at least more than locals) so any app that wants to support that will have DRM and, and my guess, even if the card doesn't specifically support the BF, the app will.

Just speculation, but the only way to avoid DRM with HD will be to buy a card before it takes effect, and probably stick with whatever software is released before then also, afterword you're probably stuck.

So what your saying is either get this now and use the software that comes with it or mce as it is now or stick with sdtv tuners right?

See i was thinking about getting 2 pvr 500's and keep my pvr 250 and put in a hd tuner but if it's not going to be worth it then i guess i'll go with 3 pvr 500's and skip hd altogether.

At least till they get over their stupid drm'ed selves Edit : Err the mpaa that is.

[stanger89]

Yeah, I don't see any way to avoid DRM with HD, aside from not updating. In a way I hope this is why HD support has been so slow in coming to Sage, that they've been trying to get a good, robust, industry acceptable DRM system in place so they can support more than just OTA HD.

I've really got mixed feelings. On the one had I hate DRM in all it's forms. On the other I realize that it's inevitable, and that if done correctly, wouldn't impact my usage at all (ie if I can record on a server and watch on any client).

[DFA]

Sleonard:

DTCP encryption for firewire is on a channel-by-channel and even show-by-show basis; it is not all or nothing (I suppose you are aware of that but wanted to clarify for others). Mostly only the Premium and PPV channels are subject to encryption. That leaves a hell of a lot for unrivaled PQ viewing including "network" HD channels.

Cayers:

I have opened a rather wordy thread here: http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ead.php?t=9288

DFA

[Crazedz]

Well i don't find DRM acceptable at all and will stubornly resist such restrictions.

If enough people do then they would have little choice but to cave in. It's the same thing that happened with player pianos and radio.

But i don't wanna get going on that as it would end up with the whole copyright mess etc... And i have ranted enough about that over the years and don't wanna think about it now.

But sometime soon the public is just gonna get fed up to the hilt with all this garbage and tell all them fat cats and corupt goverment officials just where they can stick their rediculase laws and restrictions.

[Hector]

You're too kind. I think it's more that NONE of the issues people were concerned about were included.

One thing that is obvious to Frey by now is that they're too small, under funded and their (or any PC) product is too hard to set up and maintain on a PC for them to make a big 'lets get rich' kind of play in the B2C market. Sage itself requires too much skill on the part of the user and the hardware and other related software (codecs et al) is too disparate. Even tho Tivo's business model was entirely different their software has a huge advantage because it always runs on the same hardware and as such is 'perfected' for that exact system. If all Sage has to do is run on a specific set of hardware/software then it too could be perfected. I cannot even imagine how Jeff's head must spin trying to keep track of all these interrelated issues that he must contend with now. An OEM model changes all that. Software can run on targeted systems and the programmer only has to listen to a few voices instead of the endless rabble of us that show up here with god knows what kind of hardware.

You could see when the light came on. One day they were active and pursuing the consumer market and one day they just decided not to. You see questions from users all the time that could lead to sales but no ones looking to close the deal. No presence advancing the gospel on other HTPC forums either.

If I were looking to make an OEM deal with Sage dependability would be my biggest concern so I expect that's were effort will be applied. Esp on a specific reference system. And wouldn't it be cool to have a 'Sage on a CD' sort of installs for Linux like they do for MythTV.

So is it Merry Christmas you've just been Scrooged? Hard to say. Microsoft doesn't focus on the consumer market either yet we all benefit in a trickle down sort of way. But like with Microsoft, our needs and wants aren't driving development any more.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by Opus4

The negative responses seem to happen for all of these announcements: it is noted that new things will be coming, so people comment on all kinds of things that they hope will be included, then when that entire wish list isn't included (inevitably), it is the end of the world.


- Andy

[mostlyfodder]

hector-
great post. i agree with much of what you said, although i'd like to emphasize my opinion that sage still wants our consumer $. (i've given them so much time and money already.)

also.. how big can the OEM market be? who the heck is bothering to buy sage, tweak it endlessly, install it on a media PC, and then SELL AND SUPPORT that product? i know there are people doing this, but they're competing with TiVo, and they can't deliver what TiVo delivers for the dollar.

TiVo is for everyday users, Sage is for configurating geeks like us. i don't see that changing. i don't see the OEM market for sage being that large. i do, however, wish frey well, but i of course don't understand their market as well as they do.

for a while now, it has seemed that development of the consumer app sageTV has slowed. but until a competitor catches up, i'm stuck with sage.

i hope they don't get stuck resting on their laurels...

oh also-- i wasn't too excited about the CES release anyhow. i truly have lowered my expectations for sage. i see they're off into a goofy realm that doesn't entice me. an OEM sage for linux? whoopee.

don't get me wrong. this is still a great product, but there's this growing unrest...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Hector

You're too kind. I think it's more that NONE of the issues people were concerned about were included.

I think it's too early to make that assessment. CES is a time to show off the "big" stuff you're doing, the stuff that will attract investors, large customers etc. Look at Bill's keynote, there was almost no mention of HDTV or dual tuner support in MCE, they focused on extenders, embedded MCE in STBs, TVs etc. The "big new stuff" in terms of corporate partners.

Contrast that with our perspective, where HDTV support and dual tuners are probably two of the biggest deals. Does that make HDTV or dual tuner support any less important? No.

Similar with Frey, they've make an announcement targeted at the the investor, big customer level "SageTV Media Center Software for Windows Now Available for Linux, Offering Robust Development Platform for OEMs".

HDTV tuner support, bug fixes, Studio to the masses? Do investors or corporate customers care about that? No. Does that mean they aren't coming? To early to tell.

Couple of things to consider from the press releaes:
DivX Connected. Did you read that one? It sounds as if Sage 3 will be plug and play with "DivX Connected" STBs, go buy and DivX Con. DVD player and watch shows recorded in Sage on it. That's one possibility I can pull from my brain.

Yet another, (from my brain), if a big OEM (say Motorola) picks up Sage software for their Cable boxes, imagine for yourself a Cable box, rented from the Cable company running Sage. Now that would be cool. What if you could run Sage Client on a PC and watch stuff recorded on that box, or from an MVP client. Wouldn't that be cool?

There's lots of possibilities from these press releases, many of them very cool, in addition the more pessimistic ones posted (which are also plausible).

[ruel]

i also like the thought of being able to hook up a cable box ("powered by SageTV Linux OEM Edition") to a home network where that home network is also connected to PCs in the home (where at least one PC is running "SageTV Media Center software for Windows" and another running "SageTV Client for Windows" etc.). if you think about it, you can guess that dan and jeff are *not* abandoning PC users as they pursue their OEM plans.

the press release also seems to confirm my thoughts on where sage is going with OEM. good for dan and jeff. it would have been too costly for manufacturers of "digital entertainment center" (set-top) boxes to go with sage if they had to do windows also. if manufacturers had to do windows, then they might as well become PC assemblers putting together "media center PCs" with Windows XP Media Center Edition. so linux is the way to go in order for sage to get a very opportunistic and lucrative piece of the OEM pie. don't think individual orders of software for enthusiast's PCs but think of volume quantity orders for software to be put in set-tops as bought and configured for cable companies and telcos to be given/rented out to subscribers. and in terms of what i think is good business sense, studio had to be refocued on towards the OEM plan where you can get OEMs to pay top dollar for customization. if there is ever a studio for consumers, it would probably be a stripped-down lite version but i wouldn't hold my breath. (i would personally settle for being able to at least use notepad to edit a menu.xml text file to customize my personal copy of SageTV as i can do now.)

what dan and jeff are doing in pursuing the OEM path is good in helping to further open up the market for "digital entertainment center" boxes that work a lot like our HTPC boxes but without all the PC complications so that they are more friendly and usable for mainstream consumers and where those new boxes running customized sage software are distributed by the cable companies and the telcos or maybe even at retail.

and if microsoft gives any grief about the "media center" name -- which i think is a very generic category name -- then the sage product could always be called the "SageTV Digital Entertainment Center" where "Digital Entertainment Center" (DEC) is yet another category name that is being used for these sorts of products. or use some other name.

from the press release, it looks like new consumer versions of sage products will continue to be sold and supported but perhaps apparently only for windows (i.e. "SageTV Media Center software for Windows" and "SageTV Client for Windows" plus that "SageTV Media Extender" adapter thingie). could there be a consumer linux edition eventually? maybe, maybe not depending on any new announcements to be made. anyways, at the consumer level, who cares about a consumer linux version of a particular software in a PC world dominated by windows unless if you are a linux enthusiast? the sage linux plans (currently the "SageTV Linux OEM Edition") are apparently currently geared only towards OEMs. but as mentioned by others, the press release is only directed at OEMs. there could be other announcements to come at the consumer level for the PC enthusiasts who have been clamoring in their ever demanding way for something more satisfying.

just my opinion.

ruel

[Hector]

You raise some very good points of course but my opinion isn't really based on the press release, it's been the same all along as my long rant in the Studio post will attest to The change in Frey's focus was evident long before this.

And while on the surface you're right there are an endless number of possibilities, the fact remains Frey is small, really small and they can't do all these things at once. Based on the fact they put no effort into it, I think B2C is all but dead to them.

Sage on a Motorola box? I don't share your enthusiasm for that. That will not be Sage on steroids, that will be Sage Lite. You think Tivo engineers aren't capable of providing weather data and all the other cool stuff you see from Sage/Myth 3rd parties? If Frey ever gets a deal that puts Sage on an STB targeted at Charlie Cablecustomer I assure you the geeks among us will be looking for the next cool cutting edge solution. Nonetheless kudos to Frey if they can pull something big off like that.

Of course you're right, its too early to tell what this means to us. We may well benefit from what they have to do for their new customers.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by stanger89

I think it's too early to make that assessment. CES is a time to show off the "big" stuff you're doing, the stuff that will attract investors, large customers etc. Look at Bill's keynote, there was almost no mention of HDTV or dual tuner support in MCE, they focused on extenders, embedded MCE in STBs, TVs etc. The "big new stuff" in terms of corporate partners.

Contrast that with our perspective, where HDTV support and dual tuners are probably two of the biggest deals. Does that make HDTV or dual tuner support any less important? No.

Similar with Frey, they've make an announcement targeted at the the investor, big customer level "SageTV Media Center Software for Windows Now Available for Linux, Offering Robust Development Platform for OEMs".

HDTV tuner support, bug fixes, Studio to the masses? Do investors or corporate customers care about that? No. Does that mean they aren't coming? To early to tell.

Couple of things to consider from the press releaes:
DivX Connected. Did you read that one? It sounds as if Sage 3 will be plug and play with "DivX Connected" STBs, go buy and DivX Con. DVD player and watch shows recorded in Sage on it. That's one possibility I can pull from my brain.

Yet another, (from my brain), if a big OEM (say Motorola) picks up Sage software for their Cable boxes, imagine for yourself a Cable box, rented from the Cable company running Sage. Now that would be cool. What if you could run Sage Client on a PC and watch stuff recorded on that box, or from an MVP client. Wouldn't that be cool?

There's lots of possibilities from these press releases, many of them very cool, in addition the more pessimistic ones posted (which are also plausible).