Any Chance for Xcard OSD Support?

[insomniac]

Hmmm...lets see:

A $300 video card and endless tweaking + $$ for additional decoders for half-ass good quality tv playback

--OR--

$89 for an X-card with excellent tv playback w/ minimal cpu usage.

I guess I would be one of the jumpers...

Now tell me this everyone:

Would you trade off additional functionality for a solid tv output solution such as an X-card? e.g. "studio", new devices, etc....

To me, its a no-brainer. What good does all this stuff do, if i cannot display it well on my tv. Does anyone actually intend to watch sage on their monitor? Does anyone actually ghetto up their front room with a monitor, for a reliable OSD?

Personally, Im tired of chasing "what the best deocder and tv-out" thread of the week, so that I can ooke out a little better grainy or fuzzy picture. Does anyone remember what a true dark or fog scene looks like? I sure dont.....

I.

Originally Posted by SHS

I agree jeff should go for it becuase I think a lot of user would jump on Xcard in heart beat and it help push sale for Xcard and Plextor device in long run not counting SageTV to boot.

[insomniac]

If I build a rubber mallet, im not going to make sure that the handle fits everyones hand. Im going to make sure that it fits the greater majority of hands out there.

IMO, It is not sigma's job to do Frey's homework.

I.

Originally Posted by mlbdude

Well I can tell you that Frey is as unhappy with the 350 experience as everyone else. They learned a lesson in that one that unfortunately boils over into the XCard area. Basically they are very hesitant to do any kind of hardware integration when they have no control over the interfaces for that card. At this point they are in the position of updating and making sure the 350 OSD works every time a new driver comes out for it.

Why doesn't Sigma take the initiate and write the necessary drivers for it to work with Sage? It would seem that it would be more beneficial to them than it would be to Frey.

[SHS]

mlbdude what part are you ref to when say
"Why doesn't Sigma take the initiate and write the necessary drivers for it to work with Sage? It would seem that it would be more beneficial to them than it would be to Frey."

[x[corwyn]]

Originally Posted by Opus4

One thing I am curious about: The 350 seemed to become much more unstable when the UI was added to it. For any of the applications that make use of a UI on the Xcard, do they suffer from any sort of instability? Currently, my Xcard setup is completely stable & others say the same thing, but I keep wondering if there is any chance of it losing that stability with a UI in use.

- Andy

I have always asked if the issue was a problem with the drivers on the card (which if you look there hasn't been a revision since 2003 and no comlaints that I can see elsewhere) unlike some other manufacturers (Hauppauge! oops my bad...) or if it was just no desire to implement that...AKA don't give a damn.

Look at this though...very interesting. Looks like Sigma is making plans of their own for PVRs.... http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/rhapsody.htm

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/em8610series.htm

[insomniac]

looks nice. one card solution. Id buy in.

[jptaz]

Stanger,

My point was for a low end PC like mine. Almost all the Software decoders choke on a 733Mhz Pentium III when paired with ffdshow. I think it is great that people want to spend a fortune on dedicated hardware for a PC which is general Purpose Device that as you say can be tweaked to beat in performance a DVD player(Which is SD not HD). A $200 video card is not being bought for MPEG2 by most users. Last time I checked none of them have FULL MPEG2 hardware decoding. Unless you are saying that 50% plus of the cost of a video card is geared toward HTPC 2D MPEG2 aceleration, which I doubt, they can not be doing much for acceleration. 99% of advances in Video card development has been in improving 3D gaming performance, because they are the main purchasers of $200 video cards. Now if you are telling me that if I put Geforce 6800 and runffdshow into my PC it will run effectively on my Pentium III 733Mhz without dropping to a crawl in frame rate I will look at it. My point is for $100 I am buying a dedicated decoder that has a hardware scalar to HD that is for a specific purpose. Specific Purpose Devices can and are cheaper for a similar function on a general Purpose device like 3D accelerated Video Card.

I have a Pioneer Elite as well and for sure the XCard is better looking on my HDTV than it does, because it is taking an MPEG2 and scaling it in the digital domain to HD instead of scaling an analog signal as my TV has to do with my Pioneer elite.

I am not saying that the XCard is better than alll software Decoders. I am saying that given that my PC is only Pentium III 733Mhz, which can not run ffdShow, via DVI, that the X card looks better on my HDTV. I am arguing that for you and others who do not mind spending a huge amount of money for dedicated PC, that yes you can do better.

Again it is economics.
Take a 5 year old PC and add the hardware I described for $260 to get a highly stable Tivo substitute capable of recording 200GB of shows, Outputting in execellent quality output for Standard and High Definition TV with little work and also have it be a fully functional PC that can be used for almost any purpose a network enable PC could be used for i.e. surfing web, etc...not serious gaming since it is an old PC.

With a Nvidia 6800 you may be able to achieve the superior quality you talk about, but if frey wants everyone to be able to use this product in a stable usable way then hardware based decoding is the answer.

The number of people who are willing to spend that much money and time making a ffdshow/powerstrip DVI setup is a extremely small number of people as compared to potential market for SageTV type product.

John

[jptaz]

Count me in too....One card solution from company that knows how to write drivers.

[jptaz]

Vote for Xcard OSD Support in my new Poll

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=7645

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by insomniac

Hmmm...lets see:

A $300 video card and endless tweaking + $$ for additional decoders for half-ass good quality tv playback

As I said in my post, I run Sonic CP, DXVA, Radeon 9500, essentially no tweaking, and very good TV and excellent DVD playback.

--OR--

$89 for an X-card with excellent tv playback w/ minimal cpu usage.

I have low CPU usage via DXVA, (10-20%), granted it's not 0, but...
[/QUOTE]I guess I would be one of the jumpers...

Now tell me this everyone:

Would you trade off additional functionality for a solid tv output solution such as an X-card? e.g. "studio", new devices, etc....[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about TV out, in fact I completely understand the desire to use HW decoders for TV out. The sole target of my post was the Xcard's HD/progressive output.

Again, I'm not dissagreeing about TV out (SD/480i).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jptaz

Stanger,

My point was for a low end PC like mine. Almost all the Software decoders choke on a 733Mhz Pentium III when paired with ffdshow.

I think you missed where I said I don't use ffdshow, just Sonic in DXVA mode on my Radeon 9500.

I think it is great that people want to spend a fortune on dedicated hardware for a PC which is general Purpose Device that as you say can be tweaked to beat in performance a DVD player(Which is SD not HD). A $200 video card is not being bought for MPEG2 by most users. Last time I checked none of them have FULL MPEG2 hardware decoding. Unless you are saying that 50% plus of the cost of a video card is geared toward HTPC 2D MPEG2 aceleration, which I doubt, they can not be doing much for acceleration.

No, what I'm saying is that probably over 50% of the cost of the card is dedicated to giving high quality output. It's the PCB and circuitry that play a large part in the output quaity (somewhat nullified with DVI). I'm saying that a ~$200 video card will have better ADC/output than a ~$100 Xcard. Gamers care about PQ also.

99% of advances in Video card development has been in improving 3D gaming performance, because they are the main purchasers of $200 video cards. Now if you are telling me that if I put Geforce 6800 and runffdshow into my PC it will run effectively on my Pentium III 733Mhz without dropping to a crawl in frame rate I will look at it.

I never said anything about ffdshow, or at least I didn't mean to. I was trying to say that my combo (Sonic + Radeon 9500 DXVA) gives me excellent output. A PIII 733 with a good VC and DXVA should be easilly capable of studder free playback. ffdshow does not take the picture from mediocre to great, it takes it from great or awesome to breathtaking. It gives you, at most, a maybe 5-10% improvement, it doesn't work miracles. eg it's far mote subtle than Trimention DNM found in WinDVD 6.

My point is for $100 I am buying a dedicated decoder that has a hardware scalar to HD that is for a specific purpose. Specific Purpose Devices can and are cheaper for a similar function on a general Purpose device like 3D accelerated Video Card.

I have a Pioneer Elite as well and for sure the XCard is better looking on my HDTV than it does, because it is taking an MPEG2 and scaling it in the digital domain to HD instead of scaling an analog signal as my TV has to do with my Pioneer elite.

Well the output from my Pio isn't scaled (CRT HDTV), the point of that comparison is that the output of a SW decoder/video card with ~no tweaking is better than that of a dedicated HW decoder.

I am not saying that the XCard is better than alll software Decoders. I am saying that given that my PC is only Pentium III 733Mhz, which can not run ffdShow, via DVI, that the X card looks better on my HDTV. I am arguing that for you and others who do not mind spending a huge amount of money for dedicated PC, that yes you can do better.

And I'm not saying all SW decoders are better than the Xcard. Nor am I saying the Xcard doesn't work well. What I am saying is that the with an HDTV, the Xcard gets you almost nothing you can't get easily with software decoders. It's definitely not the great asset it is for SDTV users.

Again it is economics.
Take a 5 year old PC and add the hardware I described for $260 to get a highly stable Tivo substitute capable of recording 200GB of shows, Outputting in execellent quality output for Standard and High Definition TV with little work and also have it be a fully functional PC that can be used for almost any purpose a network enable PC could be used for i.e. surfing web, etc...not serious gaming since it is an old PC.

However you could do the same thing on an HDTV with a Radeon 8500 or Geforce FX 5200. Both of which are in the same price range as the Xcard if not less.

With a Nvidia 6800 you may be able to achieve the superior quality you talk about, but if frey wants everyone to be able to use this product in a stable usable way then hardware based decoding is the answer.

But the 6800 is an example of superior output, FWIW, the FX 5700 is by all accounts almost the equal of the 6800 in PQ, and Radeons since the early days have been revered for excellent output. Heck you could probably put a Radeon 7000 in and get good output.

The number of people who are willing to spend that much money and time making a ffdshow/powerstrip DVI setup is a extremely small number of people as compared to potential market for SageTV type product.

John

Again, my only contention is that the Xcard doesn't have any inherent benefit for HDTV users. FWIW, if we're talking about inexpensive clients for HDTVs, I'd much rather see a Sage Client for the Roku HD1000 than an OSD for the Xcard.

Seriously John, what deficiencies do you see with the software decoders you've tried? Smoothness, color rendering, detail, dynamic range?

[insomniac]

FYI stranger,

I was basically building off what SHS said and not addressing you at all. Although my opinion is not swayed

Originally Posted by stanger89

As I said in my post, I run Sonic CP, DXVA, Radeon 9500, essentially no tweaking, and very good TV and excellent DVD playback.
I have low CPU usage via DXVA, (10-20%), granted it's not 0, but...

I guess I would be one of the jumpers...

Now tell me this everyone:

Would you trade off additional functionality for a solid tv output solution such as an X-card? e.g. "studio", new devices, etc....[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about TV out, in fact I completely understand the desire to use HW decoders for TV out. The sole target of my post was the Xcard's HD/progressive output.

Again, I'm not dissagreeing about TV out (SD/480i).[/QUOTE]

[jptaz]

Again, my only contention is that the Xcard doesn't have any inherent benefit for HDTV users. FWIW, if we're talking about inexpensive clients for HDTVs, I'd much rather see a Sage Client for the Roku HD1000 than an OSD for the Xcard.

Seriously John, what deficiencies do you see with the software decoders you've tried? Smoothness, color rendering, detail, dynamic range?

In my the comparision in high action things like a scrolling ticker, races or scenes with major transtions. In these scenes the software timing is not right. I get close with reclock, but it still does not look as smooth and fluid as the XCard. I would call it motion jitter and I have played with everything that can effect it. The motion jitter is barable, but the XCard is better because it gets the timing perfect. If you are only get 10-20% utilization you are still using a substancially faster PC than my PIII 733Mhz since I get from 50% to 80%, but mostly 50%. The Sonic Decoders on my 2Ghz Celeron is better, but if you can devote a 2.0GHz PC solely for playback on PC you are spending more money than someone who had an old or New PC using an XCard that can be used while playing back TV. Maybe with using only 10-20% CPU you can, but I doubt it because all it takes is one application use 100% CPU even for a few seconds to causing stuttering in playback.


EDIT: Added support for Roku is something that has not been done by another software provider and is an unproven interface. The Xcard work can and should be a simple job since two programs use it today, by your own words provides a good SDTV Solution. In fact one of the programs
was written for XCard as a hobby.

EDIT: I see the difference between the hardware encoding on Soccer or Australia rules football, nascar, cart with scrolling banners which are barely readable because of interlacing jitter and the XCard is exceptionally clean and clear. I would definitely call my FX5200 good to great, but the XCard is better.

[Opus4]

Why don't you bug Sigma to allow more people to see the Xcard SDK? They refuse to give it to any individuals & only give it to certain companies. I already said on the first page that I would look into how feasible it would be if Sigma would allow me (or _someone_) to see the SDK. I have no interest in reverse-engineering how to talk to the Xcard on a trial & error basis. And, so far no one has come forward who knows how to program for the Xcard.

As for Frey doing this work: the Xcard user market is miniscule compared to non-Xcard users.

- Andy

[Crowdx42]

Setup.. remember Sage is trying to sell the the average consumer, with the XCard you plug in the card select it as the decoder and that is the job done, great picture, no tearing issues, just straight out of the box working.
For most users with family, they don't want to spend hours tweaking trying to nail down tearing or color saturations, they want an expandable Tivo.

That to me is the XCard's main strength.
Also due to the fact that the XCard's drivers a solid and stable they have not been updated like the Hauppauge ones, again showing how much more a solid product it is.

Patrick

[jptaz]

Andy,

I would argue it is a bigger market than PVR 350 since I doubt they have many happy sales of that since it is so unstable. For the RD and support time they put into the PVR 350 and lost sales from its bad performance I believe they could have grown the number of users who would buy the XCard by many fold since it is readily available at buy.com.

If Jeff or Dan have contacted Sigma Designs and they have told them they are not interested in sharing the SDK I will gladly go harrass Sigma Designs. I have seen no such message.

At this point I question how hard it is to do this since GB PVR was able to either figure out the interface or was able to get the SDK. I don't mean to suggest that anyone is not a capable programmer, but if a part time hobbyist can get it working then I am pretty sure others can.

I think it is pretty clear from this thread and many others that people want I high quality decoder for SageTV that supports DVD, MPEG2, MPEG4. I would argue that it is a much higher number than people who want plextor MP4 encoders support since that costs so much money.

John

[insomniac]

Opus4,

Not to raz you for anything, but I did not see anything where you said that you were going to try to get a hold of the sdk.

Also, If I were to see something from Frey saying that sigma would not share their SDK with them, thereby not allowing them to develope x-card support in their product, maybe I would have a different opinion. I can tell you that the only thing I have ever seen is that "Support for the x-card is not on the frey road map". To me, this leaves a lot of room for speculation.

Have I missed previous posts? Hopefully, I have just overlooked a post somewhere. Or am I just hearing inside information/communication that I havent been privy to before?

I.

EDIT: Jptaz beat me to the post

Originally Posted by Opus4

Why don't you bug Sigma to allow more people to see the Xcard SDK? They refuse to give it to any individuals & only give it to certain companies. I already said on the first page that I would look into how feasible it would be if Sigma would allow me (or _someone_) to see the SDK. I have no interest in reverse-engineering how to talk to the Xcard on a trial & error basis. And, so far no one has come forward who knows how to program for the Xcard.

As for Frey doing this work: the Xcard user market is miniscule compared to non-Xcard users.

- Andy

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by jptaz

If Jeff or Dan have contacted Sigma Designs and they have told them they are not interested in sharing the SDK I will gladly go harrass Sigma Designs. I have seen no such message.

I didn't say Sigma wouldn't let Frey have it after completing whatever NDA paperwork was required by Sigma... but Since Frey currently has a lot of other priorities to work on & has said in the past they they have no plans to add UI support for the Xcard, I don't know how soon they will be getting the SDK.

Originally Posted by jptaz

At this point I question how hard it is to do this since GB PVR was able to either figure out the interface or was able to get the SDK. I don't mean to suggest that anyone is not a capable programmer, but if a part time hobbyist can get it working then I am pretty sure others can.

Go ask sub how much time it took him to figure out how to deal with the Xcard & whether it would have been faster to have access to the SDK. I don't really care whether he was able to figure it out... my point is that _I_ haven't got time for trial & error. Maybe someone else with an Xcard will volunteer for this. Also: I don't mean that I _would_ do the work if I had the SDK, but it would enable someone to do it & I would at least look into it.

insomniac: yes, you missed an earlier post. See post #28 of this same thread.

- Andy

[jptaz]

I,

I have been looking all over and where did Frey say XCard is not on the roadmap?
Some one else mentioned this, but I have not seen any response as to where it is?

Even if it is not on the roadmap I think it should be given that Jeff said it should be easy to add and it is a known stable product as mentioned numerous times before.

John

[insomniac]

Opus4 is getting all riled up at us

Originally Posted by Opus4

I didn't say Sigma wouldn't let Frey have it after completing whatever NDA paperwork was required by Sigma... but Since Frey currently has a lot of other priorities to work on & has said in the past they they have no plans to add UI support for the Xcard, I don't know how soon they will be getting the SDK.

Go ask sub how much time it took him to figure out how to deal with the Xcard & whether it would have been faster to have access to the SDK. I don't really care whether he was able to figure it out... my point is that _I_ haven't got time for trial & error. Maybe someone else with an Xcard will volunteer for this. Also: I don't mean that I _would_ do the work if I had the SDK, but it would enable someone to do it & I would at least look into it.

insomniac: yes, you missed an earlier post. See post #28 of this same thread.

- Andy

[Crowdx42]

Just on the question of functionality additions vs XCard support.
Personally speaking I have been using TVedia for over a week and even though it's TV recording has a long way to go to catch up with Sage, I still end up using it whenever I am not watching anything recorded on Sage. Why ? Simple XCard OSD support is excellent, it plays every video I have thrown at it and without any messing with settings I can output full 6.1 to my HT amp.

Again XCard is just a nicer picture, no tearing issues and I didn't have to buy a $150 - $200 video card which still "may have" issues with tearing. Has anyone nailed tearing down definitively with VMR9? This was my main reason for moving to hardware decoding.

At this point I would even go with a plugin for Sage which could incorporate the Sage UI into TVedia.

BTW I also HATE the way Sage works with files which are not recorded natively as well as it's mp3 playback. I MUCH prefer Zoomplayer and TVedia's approach of being able to browse directories on the fly and so making it much more versatile.

Patrick